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-- Is the end of Political Correctness near?
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Originally posted by JRinger If you were Jewish, you would find that people don't wish you Happy Chanukah (which, as an aside, is a completely unimportant holiday on the Jewish calendar -- in many respects made bigger, for kids, by virtue of its proximity to Christmas on the calendar). People don't bother to find out whether you actually celebrate Christmas before wishing you Merry Christmas -- many people just make the assumption that "Merry Christmas" means something to everyone. I also find that when people actually DO know that, for example, you're Jewish, it usually gets acknowledged with a line like "Happy Chanukah or whatever, thats what its called right?" -- doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy feeling does it?. So, what's wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it sure doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

Are you saying youd get offended if someone said merry christmas?

I think you should say your tradition unless you know specifically that that person is another religion. In fact in that case i usually would say something like "merry christmas and happy chunukah".

Agaian, if someones wishes of good tidings is offensive to someone else, then the problem is not with the messanger.

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Originally posted by nusty oooh can we do it with a holiday bush? lol. I couldn't resist.

LOL, yes, but I get to decorate it!

We can call it the Festivus Bush!

"Festivus, for the Rest of Us"

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Are you saying youd get offended if someone said merry christmas? I think you should say your tradition unless you know specifically that that person is another religion. In fact in that case i usually would say something like "merry christmas and happy chunukah". Agaian, if someones wishes of good tidings is offensive to someone else, then the problem is not with the messanger.

First of all, you're oversimplifying the issue with a general statement like "if it's offensive to you, then that's your problem" -- something I notice you have a penchant for doing in many of your 'debates'.

Secondly, no, I didn't say I, personally, would get offended if someone said Merry Christmas -- don't put words in my mouth. Personally, even though I'm Jewish, the whole "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" debate doesn't bother me at all -- I really couldn't give a shit either way. But, as a non-Christian, I can understand why some people do make an issue of it. The non-Christian holidays are really trivialized and most people acknowledge them only in some very backhanded way (i.e., "Merry Christmas or whatever..."), while Christmas (and to a lesser extent, Easter) are made into a massive annual event that it's assumed all Canadians should acknowledge.

As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

While I'll reiterate that the Christmas vs Holidays issue isn't an issue for me personally as an adult, I am a proponent for not celebrating Christmas in public schools to the exclusion of other faith's holidays. Further, I'm willing to play devil's advocate to the issue in general because I can completely understand why some adults do make an issue of it, and don't begrudge them this at all. The whole "it's always been like this -- if you're offended, then that's your problem" argument holds zero water; it's a very weak argument that could be used to justify the status quo in just about anything. Again, I ask what's so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

^^^ True!

When I was little I remember being SO shocked that my classmate didn't celebrate Christmas. "What you don't celebrate Christmas? Why the heck NOT?! What's Chanukah??"

I was REALLY little, ok?

But to make up for it, I was always so jealous of the Jewish kids because they got so many moer holidays off!

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Originally posted by JRinger As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

well thats what happens when you live in a country when a majority thinks a different way. What if i went to isreal and had kids? And then i had to explain to them why we didnt celebrate all the jewish holidays? Wouldnt they feel left out? Could you ever honestly see any other society than ours sanitize their culture to cater to others?

If i moved to another country or was a minority in that country id never in a million years dream of demanding that people change their ways to cater to my desires. All i would ask is that people do not discriminate against me based on my being different.

Tolerence does not equal assimilation and just because i demand that we keep our traditions does not mean that i or anyone else is intolerent or insensitive. On the contrary, i think it is those who demand that a society change it's ways to fit them that are being intolerent.

So a Merry Christmas to all no matter who you are.

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Originally posted by Chiclet But to make up for it, I was always so jealous of the Jewish kids because they got so many moer holidays off!

yeah meanwhile u dont hear everyone else complaining about that.

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Originally posted by JRinger The non-Christian holidays are really trivialized and most people acknowledge them only in some very backhanded way (i.e., "Merry Christmas or whatever..."), while Christmas (and to a lesser extent, Easter) are made into a massive annual event that it's assumed all Canadians should acknowledge.

They're not trivialized on purpose. There's no hidden agenda that trivializes every other holiday besides Christian ones. It just happens naturally because the majority of the people celebrate Christmas.

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Originally posted by JRinger As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

This has nothing to do with the argument of "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays" because Santa is a byproduct of Christmas whether people say Happy Holidays or not. The only way of getting rid of the problem of Jewish kids being jealous of Santa is to get rid of Santa, which kinda gets rid of the gift-giving tradition of Christmas. And if you get rid of that, you might as well scrap Christmas all together.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 well thats what happens when you live in a country when a majority thinks a different way. What if i went to isreal and had kids? And then i had to explain to them why we didnt celebrate all the jewish holidays? Wouldnt they feel left out? Could you ever honestly see any other society than ours sanitize their culture to cater to others? If i moved to another country or was a minority in that country id never in a million years dream of demanding that people change their ways to cater to my desires. All i would ask is that people do not discriminate against me based on my being different. Tolerence does not equal assimilation and just because i demand that we keep our traditions does not mean that i or anyone else is intolerent or insensitive. On the contrary, i think it is those who demand that a society change it's ways to fit them that are being intolerent. So a Merry Christmas to all no matter who you are.

But we're not talking about moving to Israel are we? We're talking about living in a country that prides itself (and even sells itself) on it's multicultural nature. I'll take issue again with your continued implication that people "moved" here and are demanding change -- millions of people of different faiths have been here for generations (myself included). Furthermore, whether it would be made an issue in any other country really isn't relevant at all -- it IS being made an issue in Canada more and more often, and debate of the issue should revolve around the merits of the issue only.

You still haven't answered my question: What is so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 yeah meanwhile u dont hear everyone else complaining about that.

The so-called "extra" holidays are really quite a myth.
True, kids can take the day off school, but guess what? School remains open, and these kids miss out on a day of education, and risk falling behind or having to make up the work in some manner.
True, some adults take the day off work, but there can be pressure not to, and for many non-professional employees who choose to do so anyway, it is often without pay. The firm I work for, like many professional-services firms, encourages their employees to take the day off if they choose, but the time missed at the office essentially has to made up anyway -- I have to bill a certain number of hours per year to meet my goals - I don't receive any offset if I decide to take, say, Yom Kippur off. So, if I choose to take it off, the hours end up getting made up elsewhere during the year.

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Originally posted by JRinger You still haven't answered my question: What is so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across to them too. it won't work. Some people just can't see multiple sides to an argument even when the other side is only asking to met at a middle and neutral ground.

I'm still celebrating Christmas but all of my greeting cards will say Happy Holidays.

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Originally posted by JRinger You still haven't answered my question: What is so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

I think what Jayx1 (and me) means is that if Canada was a picture, multiculturalism would be like painting it with different colors. Saying "happy holidays" is kinda like dumping all the paints in one bucket, mixing them, and then painting the picture with whatever monotone color that comes out.

quote:

Originally posted by JRinger The so-called "extra" holidays are really quite a myth. True, kids can take the day off school, but guess what? School remains open, and these kids miss out on a day of education, and risk falling behind or having to make up the work in some manner. True, some adults take the day off work, but there can be pressure not to, and for many non-professional employees who choose to do so anyway, it is often without pay. The firm I work for, like many professional-services firms, encourages their employees to take the day off if they choose, but the time missed at the office essentially has to made up anyway -- I have to bill a certain number of hours per year to meet my goals - I don't receive any offset if I decide to take, say, Yom Kippur off. So, if I choose to take it off, the hours end up getting made up elsewhere during the year.

Yet you don't complain when you get two weeks off work due to Christmas or the day off due to Easter, do you?

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur I think what Jayx1 (and me) means is that if Canada was a picture, multiculturalism would be like painting it with different colors. Saying "happy holidays" is kinda like dumping all the paints in one bucket, mixing them, and then painting the picture with whatever monotone color that comes out.

I can see that. but picture a painting that has room for all of the colours and is titled 'multiculuralism' (just for the sake of a name). Now this title doens't refer to any one colour, but includes them all. would it be nicer to speak of the 'mulitculuralism' painting or refer to it as the one with the big spot of blue and a bunch of other colors? I guess that's the angle I'm looking at it from.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Yet you don't complain when you get two weeks off work due to Christmas or the day off due to Easter, do you?

he would probably prefer to have His holidays off instead though.
If it was a toss up between having someone else's holidays or none at all, I wouldn't complain about getting the same time off.

I'm not trying to start crap with anyone, merely just helping out by playing devil's advocate here.

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur I think what Jayx1 (and me) means is that if Canada was a picture, multiculturalism would be like painting it with different colors. Saying "happy holidays" is kinda like dumping all the paints in one bucket, mixing them, and then painting the picture with whatever monotone color that comes out.

No, "Happy Holidays" is an acknowledgement that there are many people in Canada that do not celebrate the same things as you or I. While acknowledging that, you are still free to celebrate your traditions however you choose. Saying "Merry Christmas" to a non-Christian is really no different than saying "Oompaloompa" -- when it boils down to it, it has no meaning, unless they actually celebrate Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Yet you don't complain when you get two weeks off work due to Christmas or the day off due to Easter, do you?

Did you completely miss the point?
I get the same holidays as everyone else in Canada (which, by the way, is NOT 2 weeks at Christmas). If I choose to take another day off here and there, in recognition of a Jewish holiday, I'm either using vacation time or I end up making up the lost billable hours throughout the year.

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Originally posted by nusty I'm still celebrating Christmas but all of my greeting cards will say Happy Holidays.

If anything, it's more convenient too!

You only have to buy one pack of greeting cards for everyone!

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Originally posted by Chiclet If anything, it's more convenient too! You only have to buy one pack of greeting cards for everyone!

Exactly!

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Originally posted by DigiNut

lol. I love it. I'm sooo using that.

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Originally posted by DigiNut

Where can I get a pack of those?

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Originally posted by Chiclet Where can I get a pack of those?

Haha, nice eh? I found it online, I'm not sure if they're sold at Hallmark.

You can always just take that picture to a copy shop!

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Originally posted by JRinger But we're not talking about moving to Israel are we? We're talking about living in a country that prides itself (and even sells itself) on it's multicultural nature.

I agree and as I said earlier, TRUE multiculturalism is a celebration of ALL cultures. NOT the sanitization and hiding of them.

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I'll take issue again with your continued implication that people "moved" here and are demanding change -- millions of people of different faiths have been here for generations (myself included).

Then why has it become an issue in the last 15 years whereas before people were more accepting of tradition?

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Furthermore, whether it would be made an issue in any other country really isn't relevant at all -- it IS being made an issue in Canada more and more often, and debate of the issue should revolve around the merits of the issue only.

Sure it is because i find it disheartening that Canadians can be so feeble when it comes to their own culture.

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You still haven't answered my question: What is so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

Because it represents the dilution of tradition. Whats more, this kind of thinking is now forced upon everyone. In many cases we dont have the right to say merry christmas or practice in christmas tradition because companies and governments have dictated that we cannot express ourselves in public. It's one reason i will never send my kids (if i have any) to public schools. How would you like it if suddenly you were forced to refer to the menorah as a "holiday candle"? I dont think that would go over so well now would it?

quote:

The so-called "extra" holidays are really quite a myth. True, kids can take the day off school, but guess what? School remains open, and these kids miss out on a day of education, and risk falling behind or having to make up the work in some manner. True, some adults take the day off work, but there can be pressure not to, and for many non-professional employees who choose to do so anyway, it is often without pay.

Its no myth. I know many jewish kids who seemed to have the whole month of sept off. And yeah i was envious until i found out that most of it was spent at the synoguoge (or church as i thought of it as).. And if you are not allowed to take time off work for religious holidays then the company is in big trouble. Its enshrined as a right in this country. ANd hey thats all fine and dandy. No complaints there!

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The firm I work for, like many professional-services firms, encourages their employees to take the day off if they choose, but the time missed at the office essentially has to made up anyway -- I have to bill a certain number of hours per year to meet my goals - I don't receive any offset if I decide to take, say, Yom Kippur off. So, if I choose to take it off, the hours end up getting made up elsewhere during the year.

Then why not come in on Christmas and make up the work then?

quote:

Originally posted by nusty This is exactly what I was trying to get across to them too. it won't work. Some people just can't see multiple sides to an argument even when the other side is only asking to met at a middle and neutral ground. I'm still celebrating Christmas but all of my greeting cards will say Happy Holidays.

Just because i dont buy the opposing view doesnt mean i dont see where it's coming from.

It's every bit as self serving as the arguement i am stating.

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur I think what Jayx1 (and me) means is that if Canada was a picture, multiculturalism would be like painting it with different colors. Saying "happy holidays" is kinda like dumping all the paints in one bucket, mixing them, and then painting the picture with whatever monotone color that comes out.

BINGO!

Sadly all we do is tippytoe around trying not to offend anyone. The result is lame brained attempts to whitewash all cultures into one boring homogenious shade of grey.

Im grateful for the different cultures in canada. Im glad i can experience so many new things that many countries cannot. What im not grateful for is the self hatred many people here have for their own traditions as well as the lack of respect that many newcomers have for them.

Bah, when did this become a multiculturalism debate?

True multiculturalism is a melting pot. Pizzerias and Oriental buffets here are absolutely nothing like what you'd find in Italy or China/Japan/etc. - they're something totally new, spawned from the integration of many different cultures.

The "mosaic" version of multiculturalism is just balkanization, and as I've said before, liberal bureaucrats and special interest groups love this because it enables them to play ethnic politics.

That's all really a separate issue from political correctness, though. PC is a type of speech code, which can and does exist independently of the tribalist multicultural agenda. It's most often used against dominant religions with a perverse interpretation of the "freedom of religion" clause (Dr. Laura comes to mind). It's retarded and wrong but everybody has been programmed to accept it since elementary school.

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