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-- Tired of Being Lied to? Modern History You Can't Afford to Ignore
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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN libertarians are just as bad as socialists when it comes to their mindless rhetoric. if you actually had ANY experience in how government's worked you would know that they are more than capable of engendering badly needed infrastrucure/planning that the private sector would completely incapable of achieving.

You know, it's amazing just how many pot holes there are out there on the road, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X You're lost and I'm sorry for you.

Naaaaaah man, pity is a really unnecessary emotion.

It's good that people think differently; keep in mind that we're all from different areas, with different backgrounds and experiences. And we're all always learning as we live life. You know that of course, it doesn't really need said, but I did anyway.

I don't agree with ignorance or fundamentalism of ideas any more than you or the next bloke, as it leads to an inability to be open-minded, but we're all where we are on the path, and will get where we need to be eventually, hopefully.

I think perhaps our friend picked a rather poor role-model to base himself off of, though. Don't get me wrong, Weis and Hickman are great.

peace

nice non sequitur there shibby.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby I think perhaps our friend picked a rather poor role-model to base himself off of, though. Don't get me wrong, Weis and Hickman are great.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN blah blah blah. i think trancer x is a paranoid little child = im obviously ignorant firstly, at no stage did i doubt that the intelligence services conduct various operations like the one you have listed. but i fucking guarantee you there arent CIA operatives regularly surfing dance music websites and engaging paranoid schizos like yourself in these kinds of debates. i mean seriously, grow the fuck up. the government have far more successful and far more efficient ways to get things done than get some spook to log onto a music net forum and argue with the likes of you. stop giving yourself such airs here's another hint: the government do not give a fuck about you trancer. you are meaningless and beneath their concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X

are you serious dude?

does this guy "speak to you", for lack of a better term or "speak for you"?

so for you it's basically come down to this guy telling you to refer to certain websites and to assume everyone that disagrees with you is an "agent of disinformation".

EDIT> i'm tired of being mean to you for this stuff. whatever gets you off man.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo are you serious dude? does this guy "speak to you", for lack of a better term or "speak for you"? so for you it's basically come down to this guy telling you to refer to certain websites and to assume everyone that disagrees with you is an "agent of disinformation". EDIT> i'm tired of being mean to you for this stuff. whatever gets you off man.

You can twist it however you want, sleazy. I just find it funny how you guys are seldom able to actually talk about the topic at hand but instead have to focus on other people and topics which are totally irrelevant.

You can rest assured that I think for myself

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X You can twist it however you want, sleazy. I just find it funny how you guys are seldom able to actually talk about the topic at hand but instead have to focus on other people and topics which are totally irrelevant. You can rest assured that I think for myself

no as with the rest of your tin foil hat clan, youtube and google videos does your thinking for you, you just copy and paste your inane rhetoric all over these forums.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X You can rest assured that I think for myself

no. no i can't.

your last post pretty much convinced me of that.

you should delete it then i'll revert back to giving you the benefit of the doubt again.

/string of baseless and useless personal attacks

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you're still missing my point. i am not advocating governments per se, just stating that government is a necessary evil. oh, but since you asked- there have been plenty of state-run enterprises that have built infrastructure ok? so look outside your narrow american experience will you?

LOL.

Sorry i debunked this comment..

quote:

there's already a thread for your narrow-minded lassez faire (shit, its been so long sice i graduated i've forgotten how to spell it) love interest. libertarians are just as bad as socialists when it comes to their mindless rhetoric. if you actually had ANY experience in how government's worked you would know that they are more than capable of engendering badly needed infrastrucure/planning that the private sector would completely incapable of achieving.

It had to be done.

I don't know about Australia and how it functions, but you have no idea how infrastructure is built in this country. By my recollections, this thread is discussing an american issue, so my 'narrow american experience' stands relevant to the topic.

I never said government is evil and should be abolished. Our fundamental difference is in how big government should be. As I stated before, I believe government should be responsible for only the rights to life, liberty, and private property. Anything else is bureaucratic excess. Social security, medicare, welfare, all useless abusive government programs that encourage rampant spending.

I hold to the notion as my sig makes clear, that no organization, private or public, can spend other people's money without excess or special interests. For example, a stock broker is more interested in selling you a specific financial product that may not be best for you the investor, but benefits him the stock broker (commissions). And no government agency operate in a fiscally conservative way. Why? because they will always get their funding from the government. And if they don't spend all their money, the government asks for it back. So what incentive is there to save money? None.

The 'sugar-daddy' state is not the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton LOL. Sorry i debunked this comment.. It had to be done. I don't know about Australia and how it functions, but you have no idea how infrastructure is built in this country. By my recollections, this thread is discussing an american issue, so my 'narrow american experience' stands relevant to the topic. I never said government is evil and should be abolished. Our fundamental difference is in how big government should be. As I stated before, I believe government should be responsible for only the rights to life, liberty, and private property. Anything else is bureaucratic excess. Social security, medicare, welfare, all useless abusive government programs that encourage rampant spending. I hold to the notion as my sig makes clear, that no organization, private or public, can spend other people's money without excess or special interests. For example, a stock broker is more interested in selling you a specific financial product that may not be best for you the investor, but benefits him the stock broker (commissions). And no government agency operate in a fiscally conservative way. Why? because they will always get their funding from the government. And if they don't spend all their money, the government asks for it back. So what incentive is there to save money? None. The 'sugar-daddy' state is not the way to go.

Your assumptions would be spot on if humans operated on a rational, self interested manner all the time. But they don't. Humans do not simply do thing for self interest. That same stock broker might just like to do his job. He might actually be selling you a specific financial product because he enjoys aiding people in selecting the best financial product for them. Are there people that are self interested? No doubt. But then again there are all sorts of people in the world. That you can not trust others because you believe they are inherently motivated by self interest does not entail that everyone is actually out to get you in order to forward their career, their business or whatever other personal reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Your assumptions would be spot on if humans operated on a rational, self interested manner all the time. But they don't. Humans do not simply do thing for self interest. That same stock broker might just like to do his job. He might actually be selling you a specific financial product because he enjoys aiding people in selecting the best financial product for them. Are there people that are self interested? No doubt. But then again there are all sorts of people in the world. That you can not trust others because you believe they are inherently motivated by self interest does not entail that everyone is actually out to get you in order to forward their career, their business or whatever other personal reasons.

Oh, I'm not lumping all stock brokers in the greedy category. The point was that when people are entrusted with other people's money, whether it take the form of taxes or capital contributions, those people in control are more likely to take more risk and spend more liberally than if it was their own money. You are completely right. Humans are irrational, and that proves the point the I just made.

pkc is right. Government is a necessary evil. But we can improve upon the system to make it as practical, functional, and beneficial as it can possibly be while keeping costs low.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Oh, I'm not lumping all stock brokers in the greedy category. The point was that when people are entrusted with other people's money, whether it take the form of taxes or capital contributions, those people in control are more likely to take more risk and spend more liberally than if it was their own money. You are completely right. Humans are irrational, and that proves the point the I just made. pkc is right. Government is a necessary evil. But we can improve upon the system to make it as practical, functional, and beneficial as it can possibly be while keeping costs low.

Agreed. No need for bloated, inefficient government. We should start putting CEO's into government, maybe that way we can clean up some of the inefficiencies .

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Agreed. No need for bloated, inefficient government. We should start putting CEO's into government, maybe that way we can clean up some of the inefficiencies .

We already have plenty of former CEOs serving in the government. Hell, Mitt Romney was a venture capitalist with hundreds of millions of dollars in venture capital under his direction. People like the ACLU and atheists make their crusade to make sure church and state are separated. But they don't give a rat's ass about the free-market being separated from the government along the lines of special interests. It's legal bribery in my opinion.

Brown's secret talks on 'new world order'
Tuesday January 22, 2008
By Andrew Grice

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has begun secret talks with other world leaders on far-reaching reform of the United Nations Security Council as part of a drive to create a "new world order" and "global society".

Brown is drawing up plans to expand the number of permanent members in a move that will provoke fears in his country that the veto enjoyed by Britain could be diluted eventually.

The United States, France, Russia and China also have a veto but the number of members could be doubled to include India, Germany, Japan, Brazil and one or two African nations.

Brown has discussed a shake-up of a structure created in 1945 to reflect the world's new challenges and power bases during his four-day trip to China and India. British sources revealed "intense discussions" on UN reform were under way and Brown raised it whenever he met another world leader.

The Prime Minister believes the UN is punching below its weight. In 2003, it failed to agree on a fresh resolution giving explicit approval for military action in Iraq. US President George W. Bush then acted unilaterally, winning the support of then British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

His aides are adamant that the British veto will not be negotiated away. One option is for the nations who join not to have a veto, at least initially. In a speech in New Delhi, the Prime Minister was to say: "I support India's bid for a permanent place - with others - on an expanded UN Security Council." However, he is not backing Pakistan's demand for a seat if India wins one.

Brown will unveil a proposal for the UN to spend �100 million ($257 million) a year on setting up a "rapid reaction force" to stop "failed states" sliding back into chaos after a peace deal has been reached.

"There is limited value in military action to end fighting if law and order does not follow," he will say. "So we must do more to ensure rapid reconstruction on the ground once conflicts are over and combine traditional humanitarian aid and peace-keeping with stabilisation, recovery and development."

THE UNITED NATIONS: EYE ON THE WORLD

• The UN Security Council's membership has remained virtually unchanged since it first met in 1946.
  
  
• Great Britain, the United States, the then Soviet Union, China and France were designated permanent members of the powerful body.
  
  
• Initially, six other countries were elected to serve two-year spells on the council in 1946. They were Australia, Brazil, Egypt, Mexico, the Netherlands and Poland.
  
  
• The number of elected members, who are chosen to cover all parts of the globe, was increased to 10 in 1965. They are currently Belgium, Burkina Faso, Costa Rica, Croatia, Indonesia, Italy, Libya, Panama, South Africa and Vietnam.
  
  
• Decisions made by the council require nine "yes" votes out of 15. Each permanent member has a veto over resolutions.
  
  
• The issue of UN reform has long been on the agenda. One suggestion is that permanent membership could be expanded to 10 with India, Japan, Germany, Brazil and South Africa taking places. Any reform requires 128 nations, two-thirds, to back it in the assembly.

from the original post:

quote:

1971 The "Citizens Committee to Investigate the FBI" releases secret files on the FBI's domestic counterintelligence program, COINTELPRO, to the press, revealing that ordinary citizens had been FBI targets, as had Albert Einstein, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Martin Luther King, John Lennon and Elvis Presley. Though Senator Frank Church later vows that "never again will an agency of the government be permitted to conduct a secret war against those citizens it considers a threat to the established order," in 2002, the New York Times reports that the FBI has "nearly unbridled power to poke into the affairs of anyone in the United States, even when there is no evidence of illegal activity." A year later, FBI Intelligence Bulletin no. 89 is sent to police departments, revealing that the federal government is advocating that local authorities spy on U.S. citizens. When the Atlanta Police Department acknowledges that it routinely places antiwar protesters under surveillance, Georgia Rep. Nan Orrock tells the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "This harkens back to some very dark times in our nation's history." Sen. Sam Ervin's Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights uncovers a military intelligence surveillance system used against thousands of American citizens, and stumbles upon Operation Garden Plot, the United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2. The plan gives federal forces power to "put down" "disruptive elements" and calls for "deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder." In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, soldiers are instructed to "shoot to kill" looters in New Orleans. 1972 The Tuskegee experiment, in which black men were purposely infected with syphilis without their knowledge (and then left untreated to study the results), finally comes to an end. "The United States Government did something that was wrong, deeply, profoundly, morally wrong," President Bill Clinton later says. "It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens." A break-in at the Watergate Hotel marks the beginning of a drama that will last for more than two years, culminating in Richard Nixon's resignation. In his book, The Ends of Power, former Nixon Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman charges that the CIA scrubbed its involvement in both Watergate and John F. Kennedy's murder and that the Nixon tapes hold hidden clues. Nixon's references to the "Bay of Pigs," he says, actually refer to the JFK assassination, while references to "the Cubans" pertain to the Watergate burglars. While such assertions are impossible to prove, in one tape, President Nixon calls the Warren Commission's report, "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated." 1973 Congress passes the War Powers Act, which is soon ignored by presidents of both parties. "We've turned the war powers of the United States over to, well we are never really sure who, or what they're doing, or what it costs, or who is paying for it," Bill Moyers laments in 1987. "The one thing that we are sure of is that this largely secret global war carried on with less and less accountability to democratic institutions, has become a way of life. And now we are faced with a question brand new in our history. Can we have the permanent warfare state and democracy too?"

nobody cares trancer. you are all alone in your struggle against the NWO.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN nobody cares trancer. you are all alone in your struggle against the NWO.

It's hilarious though that such a powerful organization supposedly exists, yet it is impossible for them to quell lone rebels from exposing their intricate plans. Seriously, Trancer, unless you are rerouting your internet connection, using ridiculously high encryption in your communication or finding other ways to erase your tracks, IF they existed, why wouldn't they have taken you out by now? It is reasonable to assume that they are pissed that they're ultra secret plans have been uncovered by internet fanboys with no social lives. So tell me Trancer, how is it that you are still around?

quote:

Originally posted by venomX It's hilarious though that such a powerful organization supposedly exists, yet it is impossible for them to quell lone rebels from exposing their intricate plans. Seriously, Trancer, unless you are rerouting your internet connection, using ridiculously high encryption in your communication or finding other ways to erase your tracks, IF they existed, why wouldn't they have taken you out by now? It is reasonable to assume that they are pissed that they're ultra secret plans have been uncovered by internet fanboys with no social lives. So tell me Trancer, how is it that you are still around?

They quell dissent through many different methods but primarily it's through your Pavlovian conditioning which basically begins from the time you're born. Your pattern of thought has been conditioned so that when you see others speaking out to the contrary, you attack them as being conspiracy theorists or wacko's or whatever for not fully subscribing to the concensus reality. That stifles dissent because people don't usually like to be branded in such ways. It's kind of funny that you should bring it up because it's now quite apparent that you fail to see it even in your own posts here on TrancEaddict.

But that's just one small example. Others can be just as subtle or like as what happened to my friend's dad, they could get aggressive and try to take your ass out for not cooperating with them.

As a side note, Ed Bernays and Ivy Lee are two of the main forebears of our current system of propaganda and lifelong consumerist (materialist) conditioning, but their thoughts have also been propounded and elaborated upon throughout the years. It's quite a fascinating topic once you've really delved into it.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X It's quite a fascinating topic once you've really delved into it.

im sure most topics are "fascinating" when you have a slender grip on reality.

Here's a pretty good page on COINTELPRO:
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm

I have little doubt that something similar is going on right now but since so many people have been conditioned to accept things like this, I doubt that anything will ever come out about it. I sincerely doubt that we're ever going to have another Church Committee, that's for sure.

quote:

1971 The "Citizens Committee to Investigate the FBI" releases secret files on the FBI's domestic counterintelligence program, COINTELPRO, to the press, revealing that ordinary citizens had been FBI targets, as had Albert Einstein, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Martin Luther King, John Lennon and Elvis Presley. Though Senator Frank Church later vows that "never again will an agency of the government be permitted to conduct a secret war against those citizens it considers a threat to the established order," in 2002, the New York Times reports that the FBI has "nearly unbridled power to poke into the affairs of anyone in the United States, even when there is no evidence of illegal activity." A year later, FBI Intelligence Bulletin no. 89 is sent to police departments, revealing that the federal government is advocating that local authorities spy on U.S. citizens. When the Atlanta Police Department acknowledges that it routinely places antiwar protesters under surveillance, Georgia Rep. Nan Orrock tells the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "This harkens back to some very dark times in our nation's history." Sen. Sam Ervin's Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights uncovers a military intelligence surveillance system used against thousands of American citizens, and stumbles upon Operation Garden Plot, the United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2. The plan gives federal forces power to "put down" "disruptive elements" and calls for "deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder." In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, soldiers are instructed to "shoot to kill" looters in New Orleans. 1972 The Tuskegee experiment, in which black men were purposely infected with syphilis without their knowledge (and then left untreated to study the results), finally comes to an end. "The United States Government did something that was wrong, deeply, profoundly, morally wrong," President Bill Clinton later says. "It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens." A break-in at the Watergate Hotel marks the beginning of a drama that will last for more than two years, culminating in Richard Nixon's resignation. In his book, The Ends of Power, former Nixon Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman charges that the CIA scrubbed its involvement in both Watergate and John F. Kennedy's murder and that the Nixon tapes hold hidden clues. Nixon's references to the "Bay of Pigs," he says, actually refer to the JFK assassination, while references to "the Cubans" pertain to the Watergate burglars. While such assertions are impossible to prove, in one tape, President Nixon calls the Warren Commission's report, "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated."

Re: Tired of Being Lied to? Modern History You Can't Afford to Ignore

quote:

By late 2005, when Andy Rooney played a segment of Eisenhower's speech on CBS' 60 Minutes, the implications were evident: "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist," Eisenhower said in 1961. "Well, Ike was right. That's just what's happened," Rooney remarked.

Ike Was Right About War Machine
Andy Rooney Thinks Our Military Machine Is Bloated

June 18, 2006


(CBS) This segment was originally broadcast on Oct. 2, 2005.

The following is a weekly 60 Minutes commentary by CBS News correspondent Andy Rooney.


I'm not really clear how much a billion dollars is but the United States � our United States � is spending $5.6 billion a month fighting this war in Iraq that we never should have gotten into.

We still have 139,000 soldiers in Iraq today.

More than 2,000 Americans have died there. For what?

Now we have the hurricanes to pay for. One way our government pays for a lot of things is by borrowing from countries like China.

Another way the government is planning to pay for the war and the hurricane damage is by cutting spending for things like Medicare prescriptions, highway construction, farm payments, AMTRAK, National Public Radio and loans to graduate students. Do these sound like the things you'd like to cut back on to pay for Iraq?

I'll tell you where we ought to start saving: on our bloated military establishment.

We're paying for weapons we'll never use.

No other Country spends the kind of money we spend on our military. Last year Japan spent $42 billion. Italy spent $28 billion, Russia spent only $19 billion. The United States spent $455 billion.

We have 8,000 tanks for example. One Abrams tank costs 150 times as much as a Ford station wagon.

We have more than 10,000 nuclear weapons � enough to destroy all of mankind.

We're spending $200 million a year on bullets alone. That's a lot of target practice. We have 1,155,000 enlisted men and women and 225,000 officers. One officer to tell every five enlisted soldier what to do. We have 40,000 colonels alone and 870 generals.

We had a great commander in WWII, Dwight Eisenhower. He became President and on leaving the White House in 1961, he said this: �We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. �"

Well, Ike was right. That's just what�s happened.

Source:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005...ain892398.shtml

Video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_v...tml?id=1706638n

The Church Committee (1975) being discussed by several people including a few of it's former members.

As aired on CSPAN.

This appears to be like a lot of what's going on today.

quote:

Here's a pretty good page on COINTELPRO: http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm I have little doubt that something similar is going on right now but since so many people have been conditioned to accept things like this, I doubt that anything will ever come out about it. I sincerely doubt that we're ever going to have another Church Committee, that's for sure. quote: 1971 The "Citizens Committee to Investigate the FBI" releases secret files on the FBI's domestic counterintelligence program, COINTELPRO, to the press, revealing that ordinary citizens had been FBI targets, as had Albert Einstein, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Martin Luther King, John Lennon and Elvis Presley. Though Senator Frank Church later vows that "never again will an agency of the government be permitted to conduct a secret war against those citizens it considers a threat to the established order," in 2002, the New York Times reports that the FBI has "nearly unbridled power to poke into the affairs of anyone in the United States, even when there is no evidence of illegal activity." A year later, FBI Intelligence Bulletin no. 89 is sent to police departments, revealing that the federal government is advocating that local authorities spy on U.S. citizens. When the Atlanta Police Department acknowledges that it routinely places antiwar protesters under surveillance, Georgia Rep. Nan Orrock tells the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "This harkens back to some very dark times in our nation's history." Sen. Sam Ervin's Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights uncovers a military intelligence surveillance system used against thousands of American citizens, and stumbles upon Operation Garden Plot, the United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2. The plan gives federal forces power to "put down" "disruptive elements" and calls for "deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder." In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, soldiers are instructed to "shoot to kill" looters in New Orleans. 1972 The Tuskegee experiment, in which black men were purposely infected with syphilis without their knowledge (and then left untreated to study the results), finally comes to an end. "The United States Government did something that was wrong, deeply, profoundly, morally wrong," President Bill Clinton later says. "It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens." A break-in at the Watergate Hotel marks the beginning of a drama that will last for more than two years, culminating in Richard Nixon's resignation. In his book, The Ends of Power, former Nixon Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman charges that the CIA scrubbed its involvement in both Watergate and John F. Kennedy's murder and that the Nixon tapes hold hidden clues. Nixon's references to the "Bay of Pigs," he says, actually refer to the JFK assassination, while references to "the Cubans" pertain to the Watergate burglars. While such assertions are impossible to prove, in one tape, President Nixon calls the Warren Commission's report, "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated."

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