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-- Help me understand what happened to Trance...
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quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I understand this. The definition of "classic trance" is the old stuff, pre 96. However, alot of us who got into trance around 98 think of that stuff as "classics" because we were too young to get into the stuff prior to 96, I don't know that many 10 or 11 year olds that were or are into that stuff, I surely wasn't one of them. So the exact definition is the pre 96 stuff, i'll agree with that in that respect. When you talk about the pre 96 stuff not having a build up, well that's fine for the stuff back then, but again this was not what most people who got into the sound when we could, around 98 and 99, were used to or have come to love. I've heard some of the older trance stuff, and it sounded to me like techno, and the psy stuff. I, and others on here, got into trance because we did not like that overly repetitive or hypnotic sound. One of the reasons I got into trance vs. techno was I prefered the structure, the melody and the energy of trance. I liked the build ups, the tension, the emotion. This is what made the genre popular, whether we like it or we don't.

Then don't call it trance, because the stuff you like isn't actually trance.

Call it what it really is:

Clown cheese.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Anyone care to respond to Ishkur?

ie, does anyone feel like bashing their head against a brick wall?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Then don't call it trance, because the stuff you like isn't actually trance. Call it what it really is: Clown cheese.

I had no idea you could milk clowns.

I thought I'd chime in here just for fun, if only to give an example of someone who has no idea what "classic trance" or "energetic" trance is.

In terms of energetic trance, is it how big of a kick there is? How fast the song is? how "driving" the bass is?

For example, someone mentioned "The Quest - C Sharp"; This would not be a song that would fit in with the PVD @ Energy 2003 mix, which I agree with the original poster was a great mix. I got back into trance from a foray into house becasue of mixes like energy 2003, PVD @ Einslive Einheitsrave 2003, and even his Nature One 2004 set. Hard driving, high BPM trance sets. These type of songs still come out today, but are mixed in with what is clearly a shift in trance to a slower, more progressive style.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I'll let someone else respond to this. I don't feel like going on a rant about it. Anyone care to respond to Ishkur? anyone who got into trance when they actually could (98, 99). Again I wasn't an 8, 9 and 10 year old listening to the early stuff to really get an appreciation for it. What 8, 9 and 10 year old listens to this kind of music anyways?? Haha.

I'll respond to every post you've ever made. Try to stop making arguments based on your subjective feelings about music.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 To me, trance isn't about literal hypnotic trance states, I think we take the term "trance" too literally sometimes.

And that is why you fail

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I'll let someone else respond to this. I don't feel like going on a rant about it. Anyone care to respond to Ishkur? anyone who got into trance when they actually could (98, 99). Again I wasn't an 8, 9 and 10 year old listening to the early stuff to really get an appreciation for it. What 8, 9 and 10 year old listens to this kind of music anyways?? Haha.

Why do you keep making this argument? It's like people aren't allowed to like certain music unless they come "of age". And what, pray tell, is the minimum age limit for listening to trance? Your ears can't hear it before then?

Does all past music completely unexist to you? You never listen to Pink Floyd or the Beatles? When you get into a certain music, do you not do some research and background checks to find more of it, and familiarize yourself with its history, its development, its styles and aesthetics? Do you not go out and actually look for good music yourself? Or do you just sit at home like a useless lump of flesh waiting for Armin's set of the week or Mixmag to come down the pipe and spoonfeed you what they want your favourite trance to be? Pulp pop sludge for your soulless mass consumption.

Look: It doesn't matter when you got into the music. I didn't start listening to trance until about 97-98 either. And it became readily apparent what was happening, in accordance with the rising popularity of trance.

Older trance was real, raw, arresting, and experimentative, with limitless power and persuasion in it. It had feeling, humanity, and emotion. It was trance in its essence: Undeterred by bullshit, uncorrupted by frivolous gimmicks, and unswayed by money and pop uniformity.

But it was slowly being overwritten with a new kind of shiny, plastic fake trance. Bright and crisp. Like a predictable Hollywood blockbuster. Armed with relentless PR and marketing of big DJs, big stadiums, big anthemic sing-a-long trance. It was big, cheap, canned, fake, shiny plastic bright candy-coated happy clown trance. Not even trance anymore. A bastardization of trance.

But the thing is: People (ie: you) are fucking stupid. They can't enjoy something bizarre and crude. They don't like reality. They are easily distracted by pretty melodies and shiny things, like raccoons oggling over jangling keys. They don't understand the unresolved, infinite beat, the suspended state of momentum, the TAZ, or even the concept of intellectualizing these abstract things.

They want the insta-gratification. They want the euphoria without having to work for it. They want to win the lottery. They don't want their food to taste bitter. And the new safe, boring world of album-oriented marketing and predictable formulaic MTV trance gave it to them. Their own private little fantasy comfort zone.

And thus: Trance became very popular with you, the masses, the stupid majority, the lowest common denominator of society. Trance reformed itself into pop music so that you could like it, not the other way around. You did not grow as a person to go it. It came to you. It opened your mouth with a vice and poured its cheesy, glowing tripe down your gullet, and with a bloated belly you screamed for more.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not telling you what to like. I just want you to own up to what you're liking. You like crap.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Why do you keep making this argument? It's like people aren't allowed to like certain music unless they come "of age". And what, pray tell, is the minimum age limit for listening to trance? Your ears can't hear it before then? Does all past music completely unexist to you? You never listen to Pink Floyd or the Beatles? When you get into a certain music, do you not do some research and background checks to find more of it, and familiarize yourself with its history, its development, its styles and aesthetics? Do you not go out and actually look for good music yourself? Or do you just sit at home like a useless lump of flesh waiting for Armin's set of the week or Mixmag to come down the pipe and spoonfeed you what they want your favourite trance to be? Pulp pop sludge for your soulless mass consumption. Look: It doesn't matter when you got into the music. I didn't start listening to trance until about 97-98 either. And it became readily apparent what was happening, in accordance with the rising popularity of trance. Older trance was real, raw, arresting, and experimentative, with limitless power and persuasion in it. It had feeling, humanity, and emotion. It was trance in its essence: Undeterred by bullshit, uncorrupted by frivolous gimmicks, and unswayed by money and pop uniformity. But it was slowly being overwritten with a new kind of shiny, plastic fake trance. Bright and crisp. Like a predictable Hollywood blockbuster. Armed with relentless PR and marketing of big DJs, big stadiums, big anthemic sing-a-long trance. It was big, cheap, canned, fake, shiny plastic bright candy-coated happy clown trance. Not even trance anymore. A bastardization of trance. But the thing is: People (ie: you) are fucking stupid. They can't enjoy something bizarre and crude. They don't like reality. They are easily distracted by pretty melodies and shiny things, like raccoons oggling over jangling keys. They don't understand the unresolved, infinite beat, the suspended state of momentum, the TAZ, or even the concept of intellectualizing these abstract things. They want the insta-gratification. They want the euphoria without having to work for it. They want to win the lottery. They don't want their food to taste bitter. And the new safe, boring world of album-oriented marketing and predictable formulaic MTV trance gave it to them. Their own private little fantasy comfort zone. And thus: Trance became very popular with you, the masses, the stupid majority, the lowest common denominator of society. Trance reformed itself into pop music so that you could like it, not the other way around. You did not grow as a person to go it. It came to you. It opened your mouth with a vice and poured its cheesy, glowing tripe down your gullet, and with a bloated belly you screamed for more. Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not telling you what to like. I just want you to own up to what you're liking. You like crap.

maybe the best post in this issue i have ever read....

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 To me, trance isn't about literal hypnotic trance states, I think we take the term "trance" too literally sometimes.

You realize that you are contradicting yourself quite a bit with statements like this, especially since the majority of your posts unnecessarily repeat over and over about how trance is so emotional and hypnotically beautiful to you. That in itself is a prime example of how trance music is taken too literal and serious by some people, so I (and I'm sure many others) haven't any idea how to go about interpreting what you say, or really, what you actually mean on here anymore.

Trance started sucking when it got into that fluffy hands in the air bullshit around 2000, electronic music in general started to go way down hill around then and it has not learned its lesson.


Part of the problem is genre specific parties, that ruined the whole scene because it segregated the community and made a US VS THEM mentality where Techno people hate Trance people and so on. If you remember the oldskool trance around 92-94 it was great, electronic music had that wow factor whuch is lost for sure but all styles incoperated aspects of each other and you didnt have to listen to one syule of music for the whole night.


People complain about the boring state of trance or techno and when something new comes out they love it but its just the same repacked formula and the big build ups are just replaced y prog synths or minimal bleeps opposed to loopy techno.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Why do you keep making this argument? It's like people aren't allowed to like certain music unless they come "of age". And what, pray tell, is the minimum age limit for listening to trance? Your ears can't hear it before then? Does all past music completely unexist to you? You never listen to Pink Floyd or the Beatles? When you get into a certain music, do you not do some research and background checks to find more of it, and familiarize yourself with its history, its development, its styles and aesthetics? Do you not go out and actually look for good music yourself? Or do you just sit at home like a useless lump of flesh waiting for Armin's set of the week or Mixmag to come down the pipe and spoonfeed you what they want your favourite trance to be? Pulp pop sludge for your soulless mass consumption. Look: It doesn't matter when you got into the music. I didn't start listening to trance until about 97-98 either. And it became readily apparent what was happening, in accordance with the rising popularity of trance. Older trance was real, raw, arresting, and experimentative, with limitless power and persuasion in it. It had feeling, humanity, and emotion. It was trance in its essence: Undeterred by bullshit, uncorrupted by frivolous gimmicks, and unswayed by money and pop uniformity. But it was slowly being overwritten with a new kind of shiny, plastic fake trance. Bright and crisp. Like a predictable Hollywood blockbuster. Armed with relentless PR and marketing of big DJs, big stadiums, big anthemic sing-a-long trance. It was big, cheap, canned, fake, shiny plastic bright candy-coated happy clown trance. Not even trance anymore. A bastardization of trance. But the thing is: People (ie: you) are fucking stupid. They can't enjoy something bizarre and crude. They don't like reality. They are easily distracted by pretty melodies and shiny things, like raccoons oggling over jangling keys. They don't understand the unresolved, infinite beat, the suspended state of momentum, the TAZ, or even the concept of intellectualizing these abstract things. They want the insta-gratification. They want the euphoria without having to work for it. They want to win the lottery. They don't want their food to taste bitter. And the new safe, boring world of album-oriented marketing and predictable formulaic MTV trance gave it to them. Their own private little fantasy comfort zone. And thus: Trance became very popular with you, the masses, the stupid majority, the lowest common denominator of society. Trance reformed itself into pop music so that you could like it, not the other way around. You did not grow as a person to go it. It came to you. It opened your mouth with a vice and poured its cheesy, glowing tripe down your gullet, and with a bloated belly you screamed for more. Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not telling you what to like. I just want you to own up to what you're liking. You like crap.

Very, very nice. It's just unfortunate that so many people don't see the real truth in all of this.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I don't even listen to much trance anymore! There's only a select few I do still like, and most are from last year...again the only reason I defend this stuff is because it's what got me into the finer forms of electronic music in the first place, and I still appreciate it's contributions. That doesn't mean I worship it, or listen to it that much. I'm a passionate person, I have passions, and this music has been one of them...I don't think there's anything wrong with having a passion for music, and even expressing it openly. People are different...

But you are still majorly contradicting yourself though... and I'm not sure why you keep bringing up your passion for music when it really isn't relavent in this case. And please, please stop acting like you are the ONLY person who has a deep passion for music and those others who happen to disagree with your thoughts do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Yeah repetition is fine, it's a part of a lot of music, including trance, however some music is TOO repetitive without melody or emotion, and just builds and builds and builds without letting the repetition go anywhere. This is what I can't stand...

Fred Baker - Total Blackout FTL

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Goodbye, i'll stop posting on these threads, or this forum period...maybe i'll just shut up for a while.

k

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I'll throw away all my old Armin CDs (Boundaries of Imagination sucks, Seven Cities, C-Sharp, Dido (Armin van Buuren's Universal Religion Remix), all those tracks on it are CRAP), i'll burn all the vinyl I have too, the hundreds of dollars worth of utter pre-packaged garbage shit fed to the masses to salivate. I'll delete all those god damn MP3s too. Oh and i'll throw away that awful piece of shit CD called "Tranceport" from Paul Oakenfold from back in the day. Man that CD had some utter bullshit. Rendezous (Pvd. vs Tilt Mix) damn that was some stupid shit, and El Nino by Agnelli & Nelson, what were they thinking? Ascension's Someone had some pretty cheesy vocals too. I HATE epic trance, I hate that MTV garbage (never played on it though...not here), I hate Armin, old Tiesto, PvD, BT (god Flaming June was some crap), Micro de Govia can kiss my ass (Vital Spark, damn that is some cheesy shit). PvD's "For An Angel" wow, I hate that tune, it's what got me into this shit and now I'm a messed up fu*k who doesn't know his ass from his head. Damn, I should just go listen to some REAL trance and bang my head against the wall feeling like utter shit because i've been brainwashed by this shit. Go to hell Paul van Dyk, it's your fault!

If you don't want to listen to crap: yes. You should do that. I'm not telling you to do that. You are.

Everything you listed is crap. For real. It's all crap. For an Angel is crap. It's a tepid, boring, mediocre track with an average 3-key melody any accomplished musician could come up with while eating breakfast, which is why it was so successful because anything that milquetoast is instantly accessible to simple people. Like you. Of course it got you into trance. Because you celebrate crap. It is crap.

Tranceport is one of the worst DJ mixes in the history of the Universe. Playing the year's top 10 tracks back to back doesn't make you a DJ, it makes you a glorified stereo; a jukebox marketing the trance equivalent of "MTV AMP". El Nino is bombastic, over-the-top cheese, a forerunner to Dutch Trance.

Everything you listed there: All crap. I'm not saying throw it away. By all means, if that's what makes you happy, go on listening to it. Just remember what it is, what it does, where its intentions lie, and why you like it so much.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Oh Iskur I don't listen to ASOT. I've actually only listened to a few episodes in the past, and I'm not THAT into Tiesto or any of them. I don't even listen to much epic anymore. I'm more or less defending the stuff I liked over the years that appealed to me. Everything from BT's early work, and PvDs, to Armin's old stuff, Oakie's, and all of those guys I used to be a big fan of. Am I anymore? Not as much

And I can explain to you why: You can not live on a diet of chocolate and candy all the time. Every so often, an apple or a carrot or some broccoli is pretty damn appealing.

Me? I eat all food. A well-balanced diet keeps one fresh in this scene. Sounds to me like you spent your formative years gorging on junk food, and now you're sick to your stomach.

That isn't your fault. As I keep saying: The music is crap. You eat crap, you're going to feel like crap eventually. Try something with more substance sometime.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur If you don't want to listen to crap: yes. You should do that. I'm not telling you to do that. You are. Everything you listed is crap. For real. It's all crap. For an Angel is crap. It's a tepid, boring, mediocre track with an average 3-key melody any accomplished musician could come up with while eating breakfast, which is why it was so successful because anything that milquetoast is instantly accessible to simple people. Like you. Of course it got you into trance. Because you celebrate crap. It is crap. Tranceport is one of the worst DJ mixes in the history of the Universe. Playing the year's top 10 tracks back to back doesn't make you a DJ, it makes you a glorified stereo; a jukebox marketing the trance equivalent of "MTV AMP". El Nino is bombastic, over-the-top cheese, a forerunner to Dutch Trance. Everything you listed there: All crap. I'm not saying throw it away. By all means, if that's what makes you happy, go on listening to it. Just remember what it is, what it does, where its intentions lie, and why you like it so much.

Yeah everything I like is crap. I'm crap. I'm actually a very complex person, i'm not a simpleton. I think very complex and I am a deep thinker and I like to write and think and melodic, uplifting trance has allowed me over the years to imagine things and to dream about things. I have moved on, don't think I still sit here and listen to those things. I like beautiful music, I like emotional music, I like dark music, I like light music. I went through phases where I listened to really dark stuff. I went through phases where I liked really bright stuff. I've liked many forms of EDM. Right now I am into warm, melodic progessive tracks mixed in with progressive and electro breaks. I like electronic music, ANY electronic music that is warm and passionate, because it fits with who I am.

I am deep, so I like deep stuff, I am passionate so I like passionate stuff, I am emotional, so I like emotional stuff. I pick things that relate to who I am as a person. Thats why I like it. I don't buy into the whole Dj Worship thing, I don't buy into all that big super saw sounds. I just got into this stuff because I felt it was more "warm" then the other stuff I was hearing on the radio at the time that I didn't like. Thats what I like, putting a human and emotional element into it, but also an ethereal and heavenly type of feel as well. That is what i've looked for over the years, in many forms of music, not just trance. It was closest I could find to music in a computer game I was into called "Unreal" and to some of the artists I had liked such as Jean Michel Jarre, Enigma, Enya, Tangerine Dream and Delerium. I'm just trying my best to explain myself without getting ridiculed for who I am and why I like the things I do.

All I ask for is understanding, not agreement. A little respect would go a long way. I respect you, you respect me. And I will admit to being someone who was a bit closed minded to music over the years, but has since branched out into other stuff slowly but surely and still needs time to get out and be exposed to different music. Most of the CDs i've bought lately have not been trance, but downtempo, house, ambient and breaks. So I am getting better...

Deep, shallow, sophisticated, simple, crap......I don't care what you are.

One thing you absolutely HAVE to learn is: brevity.

jesus fucking christ.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Deep, shallow, sophisticated, simple, crap......I don't care what you are. One thing you absolutely HAVE to learn is: brevity. jesus fucking christ.

I'll work at that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Look: It doesn't matter when you got into the music. I didn't start listening to trance until about 97-98 either. And it became readily apparent what was happening, in accordance with the rising popularity of trance. Older trance was real, raw, arresting, and experimentative, with limitless power and persuasion in it. It had feeling, humanity, and emotion. It was trance in its essence: Undeterred by bullshit, uncorrupted by frivolous gimmicks, and unswayed by money and pop uniformity.

Wrong! Older Trance/EDM had its share of stupid gimicky bullshit too. You were just a noob then and didnt realize it or maybe thought it was "cool". Smart E's- Sesame's treat pops to mind. If someone did that today, you would have a holy shit fit, and go on a 2 hour long rant on your soap box. All that stuff that Judge Jules, John Kelly, Seb Fontaine, Guy Ornadel, George Acosta, Talla 2XL....etc played pre 2000 was the worst shit I ever heard. That was alot worst and even more umimaginitive than anything I have heard today. Every time the trance genre goes through changes, there are going to be some people not happy. But the 16-21 year olds who are just now discovering trance through GDJB/ASOT/TATW feel just as excited and un-jaded as you did when you first discovered it.

Minimal techy trance that you are championing right now is great....its like Picasso. Very minimal, clean and the beauty is in its rawness. But if everywhere you went you saw fucking art with black lines on a white background, you would lose your mind. Just because you outgrew your Negel prints and now have moved on to more "sophisticated" originals, does not mean that the Negel's have lost their artistic meaning.

Trance peaked around 2000, then started to suck when all the once good producers went all commercial/pop/switched to other styles.

quote:

Originally posted by Durrrtysouth Wrong! Older Trance/EDM had its share of stupid gimicky bullshit too.

Oh, it most certainly did. But here's the clincher:

The stupid shit knew it was stupid shit, and didn't try to be anything but. It didn't lie to itself. It was shameless in its greedy exploitation of wistful themes. And we enjoyed it for that stupid fact. No one said Sesame's Treat was genius, forward thinking music. It was stupid fluff. Most rave hardcore/happy hardcore was, and that's why we liked it.

But even then, the stupid shit was tempered with great shit in equal quantities.

Today: You have stupid shit that overwhelmingly dominates everything, to the point where I have not been to a trance party in 6 years because every DJ doesn't play any decent trance. Does that mean the music sucks, the DJs aren't good, or no one's really trying that hard?

And secondly: Today's stupid shit doesn't think its stupid shit, as Spirit5 agressively tried to point out to us in this thread. And THAT is the real bone of contention here. I don't have a problem with what the music is. I have a problem with what the music pretends to be.

In other words: I'm sick of this bullshit scene lying to me. I'm sick of magazines calling someone utilizing samples and loops to make a track in under an hour a genius. I'm sick of dishonest, cheap fucking facade music comparing itself to the legends of classical music, and I'm sick of stupid punters on these forums telling me that somebody playing someone elses music (or even playing his own pre-recorded music, doesn't matter) is some sort of fucking music God. I'm sick of the hype, I'm sick of the bombast, I'm sick of the smoke and mirrors, I'm sick of all the bullshit PR moves and marketing diarhea, I'm sick of 5'x5' sized diecut glossy flyers with the DJs name in 3000 pt. 3D glowing font with a rambling excuse of a declaration that he'll take me on some stupid journey.

All I'm asking for is honesty and accountability. Sure, there was crap in the old days. But the existence of crap has never been the problem. It's when people take the crap and mistaken it for something good and lovely and precious to the point where they are humbled to have it at all.....that tends to fuck things up.

Because when all people have been fed all their lives is crap......they will never assume there's anything better out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Durrrtysouth Wrong! Older Trance/EDM had its share of stupid gimicky bullshit too. You were just a noob then and didnt realize it or maybe thought it was "cool". Smart E's- Sesame's treat pops to mind. If someone did that today, you would have a holy shit fit, and go on a 2 hour long rant on your soap box. All that stuff that Judge Jules, John Kelly, Seb Fontaine, Guy Ornadel, George Acosta, Talla 2XL....etc played pre 2000 was the worst shit I ever heard. That was alot worst and even more umimaginitive than anything I have heard today. Every time the trance genre goes through changes, there are going to be some people not happy. But the 16-21 year olds who are just now discovering trance through GDJB/ASOT/TATW feel just as excited and un-jaded as you did when you first discovered it.

Bingo! You take an old man and compare it to a young kid. The old man complains about the glory days and how the 1920's were such a simpler time. 50 years later that young kid isn't such a young kid anymore. Now he is complaining about all the stuff he misses from his past to the new generation and the cycle goes on and on.

Nostalgia is great to a certain point, but in order for trance to survive it must evolve not stay in the past. Think about it, disco died because it failed to evolve. Artists were uncreative, mass opposition, cheesy overproduced music with the emphasis on quantity not quality, and commercialization. 16 years later, take away or add a few years, trance is still here. Whether or not you like where it's going is simply a matter of 'survival of the fittest' when it comes to the trance scene.

Spirit5: You talk about classic trance not containing any of the emotion the later forms did, then I present to you some required listening.

Dark Hearts Vol. 1
Harthouse: Released 1995


1. Metal Master - Spectrum (Double J Mix)
2. Ambush, The - Casablanca
3. Barbarella - My Name Is Barbarella (1995 Be Zet Mix)
4. Jiri.Ceiver - Short Waves
5. Progressive Attack - Hypnoticharmony Part I + II
6. Spicelab - Quicksand
7. Pulse - Cari�o (Silencio)
8. Alter Ego - Tanks Ahead (Black Dog Mix)
9. Resistance D - Human (Laurent Garnier Mix)
10. Pulsation - Pulsar

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 Nostalgia is great to a certain point, but in order for trance to survive it must evolve not stay in the past. Think about it, disco died because it failed to evolve. Artists were uncreative, mass opposition, cheesy overproduced music with the emphasis on quantity not quality, and commercialization. 16 years later, take away or add a few years, trance is still here. Whether or not you like where it's going is simply a matter of 'survival of the fittest' when it comes to the trance scene.

Disco died because the rockers all bashed it and said it was "gay" music. But it came back as "house music".

Trance is dying because all the house heads are bashing it because it is "XTC" music. It will come back as something else.

Thats the cycle. Soak, wash, rinse, dry....repeat.


If you want to "save trance", then bash the kids who come on the boards talking about their pill binges over the weekend, not the artists and DJs who make up the scene.

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