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-- How Flight 77 Hitting The Pentagon Would Really Look?
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Wow. I really am speechless at this point besides a big 'ole...

OMFG!!!

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As for conspiracies that were mentioned on previous page, I agree with most of them..

That has to be the single most disturbing thing I've heard in quite some time.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Well, you are asking me for proof to my statements, while placing your own arguments with no considerable proof either. So we're even.

I love it! You don't have definitive proof that aliens built the pyramids using telekenetic powers, but I don't have proof that aliens didn't build the pyramids using telekentic powers, so you're right.

It's the age-old conspiracy/religion fallback: It's nearly impossible to prove things didn't exist or didn't. So instead of going with the most studied, scientific and plausable explaination for things, we always can find that little "doubt" or "wiggle room" where it might have actually been the great oompa-loompas that really had their hands in the matters.

I'll admit, it's a completely unwinable argument when you can always default back to "well, you can't proove that it didn't happen." "Maybe they were just really smart and coverd up all the evidence so we can never know the whole truth."

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Um..yeah. All lifeforms are made of water and a billion other chemical compounds. And guess what, those compounds have to be organized in a certain way, otherwise you just get a gelatinous goo. If by imprint you mean waste biochemicals swimming through water, yes. If you mean some magical-telepathy-alien-atlantis-pyramid-9/11 imprint, then no. Um, actually it's a release of endorphins in anticipation of improvement. You know you're gonna feel better and that makes you feel better. And it's not all that powerful, because otherwise we'd all be eating placebo pills. Oh, wait, maybe that's another government conspiracy? Maybe we all are being given placebo pills? Well..it can more or less. What else controls our movements/desires/feelings/etc? Through interaction, by a degree. Through telepathy..um, no. Argue what??? Buddhists are practicing telepathy? Atlanteans used telekinesis to build pyramids? UFO's fly by the power of thought? What would you need UFO's for then? You can fly without it!

I see what you're thinking. You only believe in things that have 100% proof behind in them. In cases where that is not the case, you stick to the main, often the government sponsored view.

Placebo effect - countless studies have shown that the body can heal itself after a placebo pill is given. In some controversial cases, I heard such things as cancer and tumours were cures in such a way. But even if that was true, such information would never see the light of day. Pharmaceutical companies with many billions of dollars in sales will be out of business in a day if such information were to be released (on how to cure any disease using your thoughts). I firmly believe all disease is self created. Pharmaceuticals dont give us placebos. They give us drugs at outrageous prices with sideeffects to suppress our symptoms so that we can buy more drugs to suppress the sude effects and then more drugs for those effects and so on. Thats a FACT. FACT: Drugs do not cure disease. Only the body can heal itself. I rest my case.

As for UFO's: why do I have to go in detail on the reason for existence of these crafts - I thought you might've figured my response by now - the craft is neccessary for the protection of the being from the elements, and from exposure to space and ultraviolet radiation, pollution and other things. The power of the thought probably cant control all these elements at once. The alien craft is wired in such a way as to respond to the aliens thought, as in many UFO books and stories it was said that their craft had no gears and such. But you probably dont believe this since there little proof if any out there, and the facts are classified by the governments.

I imagine you believe in only a few things, since its hard to find any subject that can be proven 100%, as most of them cannot be proved 100 percent - even the atomic theory itself. But I hope you already know that. So I am basically voicing my opinions, and trying to shed some light on things.

A normal healthy person would never get sick. I am a vegan, for 7 months now. I have yet to get sick, tired, headaches or anything like that. I feel great and full of energy. I wish I found out the truth about poisons in our foods earlier.

If you think drugs can cure disease, then why dont we take prescriptions to fight ALL illnesses, as small as a flu? Body itself is a powerful mechanism that after billions of years developed an amazing immunity machine to fight illness. Why some really terrible diseases were born in the last 150 years? Because we have poisoned our food and let corporations and pharmaceuticals/government control our food industry. Nobody cares about your health or well being. Its time people see this and stop supporting these heinous schemes by not spending money to these industries. Even dollar you dont spend on them is less damage to the planet and other human beings.

I can talk about this forever, but I hope you can see my point, and finally agree on another of my points.

As a summary, some of you still believe the government is COMPLETELY innocent of the 9/11 events, and other SIMILAR events they carried out against other people in other countries. So you can deny then.

But the fact is, that the government does not care about its people. This can be seen in poor state of health of people, recent rise of powerful diseases that were unknown only 100 years ago (Alzhemer's, AIDS, Lou Gerig's, SARS, etc.). So you will tell me its just a coincidence. Then you will deny that our environment is being poisoned. You will deny that 25% of our forests around the world has been cut in last 2000 years. You will deny huge drops in fish supplies around the world. You will deny the awful amounts of pollution that government sanctioned corporations releases into the environment. You will deny most of the wrongdoing of the governments, who have become very skilled at hiding the truth, after 7,000 years of experiments. History shows us how the governments have lied and deceived us, massacred and abused people. And you expect that today's governments are actually honest, caring, and have nothing to hide? Those of you have blinders on your eyes, you need to wake up and finally start fixing this world before there will be nothing left for our children's children to see! Everyone is living only for today. Where's a sense of urgency? We humans are supposed to do smart things, since we have a great intelligence that has been used to such horrendous idiocy. Look at the damage.

I can see the denial coming already ...

I'm amazed (and unbelieving) of your stories on health.

And if the body can cure itself, why do we die of disease to begin with? What is your answer to curing all of our medical problems? Becoming vegans and taking sugar pills?

And if you want to know why we have new diseases, it's a little thing called evolution. On the microscopic time scale generation times are quite small and evolution is visible. Diseases have been around since the existance of humans, and they have always killed people. The plague, small pox, on and on. There are always diseases around to kill people, and there are constantly new ones formed. Or do you not believe in evolution?

I'm sure as hell glad you're not giving real medical advice. I'd love to see the look on a type I diabetics face when you told them to stop taking their insulin, become a vegan and wait for a new set of kidneys to grow. Or how about you tell a person with Parkinson's that there's no need for L-DOPA, simply stop eating "poisonous" foods and their substantia nigra will miraculously regenerate.

I really hope that you never become seriously ill, but if you do, I really hope you realize modern medicine is here to treat what a "normal healthy person" can't cure on their own.

You want a nice story about all this wonderful and disease-free living? I work at a cancer hospital as I go to school, as I have for the past three years. About a year ago, I had a woman come in with a 15 lbs mass on her abdomen. She realized she was getting sick about a year before and her doctor told her it was cancer. What did she do? She stopped eating meat, took all the vitamins and herbal supplements she could get her hands on, and even went to Mexico for some "holistic" therapy. Well, a year later, the tumor was still growing and had metastisized. A simple surgery at the time of diagnosis would have saved her, but she went the "normal healthy person" route, as you prescribe. So, two years later she's dead, and her three children, all under the age of ten, have no mother. God bless that healthy living!

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I see what you're thinking. You only believe in things that have 100% proof behind in them. In cases where that is not the case, you stick to the main, often the government sponsored view.

No, of the things that have 100% proof behind them I am sure in. Of the things that have at least some proof, I usually believe in them. But for the things that have exactly 0% proof, no, I usually don't believe in them, but unless they have some proof against them, I don't disbelieve them either.

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Placebo effect - countless studies have shown that the body can heal itself after a placebo pill is given. In some controversial cases, I heard such things as cancer and tumours were cures in such a way. But even if that was true, such information would never see the light of day. Pharmaceutical companies with many billions of dollars in sales will be out of business in a day if such information were to be released (on how to cure any disease using your thoughts). I firmly believe all disease is self created. Pharmaceuticals dont give us placebos. They give us drugs at outrageous prices with sideeffects to suppress our symptoms so that we can buy more drugs to suppress the sude effects and then more drugs for those effects and so on. Thats a FACT. FACT: Drugs do not cure disease. Only the body can heal itself. I rest my case.

Right. That's why our average lifespan is now 5 times longer than it was 200 years ago. Or is that another conspiracy? Oh, and how about diseases like polio that have been exterminated thanks to the vaccines? And what about the fact that people were dying off pneumonia and syphillis and all other sorts of diseases years ago and are now just routine cases that get well in a couple of weeks? Or is that all a government conspiracy? Yeah, the plague was not terminal, Decameron was written by the US government agents.

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As for UFO's: why do I have to go in detail on the reason for existence of these crafts - I thought you might've figured my response by now - the craft is neccessary for the protection of the being from the elements, and from exposure to space and ultraviolet radiation, pollution and other things. The power of the thought probably cant control all these elements at once. The alien craft is wired in such a way as to respond to the aliens thought, as in many UFO books and stories it was said that their craft had no gears and such. But you probably dont believe this since there little proof if any out there, and the facts are classified by the governments.

Ah..so they can move faster than light and lift huge boulders and cure themselves of any disease by just using their thoughts, but on the other hand they can't shield themselves from UV radiation, pollution, and - omg - the elements??? Yup, I can move that 500 ton boulder in a sec, but damn that rain is really gonna give me a bad flu.

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I imagine you believe in only a few things, since its hard to find any subject that can be proven 100%, as most of them cannot be proved 100 percent - even the atomic theory itself. But I hope you already know that. So I am basically voicing my opinions, and trying to shed some light on things.

There's a difference between being not being proven 100% and not being proven at all or actually being proven wrong like the Northwood thing.

BTW, I'm done with this thread.

It's like arguing with a fundamentalist or a brick wall for that matter. No matter how much sense you make, no matter how logically you can refute the other's stance, it's always turned back with the same response.

For a fundamentalist, it's "well, it's in the Bible and the Bible is the word of God. It can't be wrong, we just don't understand it."

In this case, it's "well, just because we don't have facts proving it did happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. It did happen, we just don't understand it yet, or everything we know is wrong."

Once those kind of replies reach a critical mass, you know the debate is over.

^^I kinda like it because he doesn't just repeat himself yet, he keeps bringing new looney theories all the time. I'm interested to see how much more he has to offer.

Anyway, I'm really having a hard time putting together the pyramids, aliens, government conspiracies, 9/11, Atlantis, diseases and vegetarianism. Oh well, at least we all agreed that 2pac is dead. Hopefully.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm amazed (and unbelieving) of your stories on health. And if the body can cure itself, why do we die of disease to begin with? What is your answer to curing all of our medical problems? Becoming vegans and taking sugar pills? And if you want to know why we have new diseases, it's a little thing called evolution. On the microscopic time scale generation times are quite small and evolution is visible. Diseases have been around since the existance of humans, and they have always killed people. The plague, small pox, on and on. There are always diseases around to kill people, and there are constantly new ones formed. Or do you not believe in evolution? I'm sure as hell glad you're not giving real medical advice. I'd love to see the look on a type I diabetics face when you told them to stop taking their insulin, become a vegan and wait for a new set of kidneys to grow. Or how about you tell a person with Parkinson's that there's no need for L-DOPA, simply stop eating "poisonous" foods and their substantia nigra will miraculously regenerate. I really hope that you never become seriously ill, but if you do, I really hope you realize modern medicine is here to treat what a "normal healthy person" can't cure on their own. You want a nice story about all this wonderful and disease-free living? I work at a cancer hospital as I go to school, as I have for the past three years. About a year ago, I had a woman come in with a 15 lbs mass on her abdomen. She realized she was getting sick about a year before and her doctor told her it was cancer. What did she do? She stopped eating meat, took all the vitamins and herbal supplements she could get her hands on, and even went to Mexico for some "holistic" therapy. Well, a year later, the tumor was still growing and had metastisized. A simple surgery at the time of diagnosis would have saved her, but she went the "normal healthy person" route, as you prescribe. So, two years later she's dead, and her three children, all under the age of ten, have no mother. God bless that healthy living!

Why do we have all the diseases? Ask the Native Americans, who were almost wiped out by smallpox and flu that was previously unknown to them, I bet you didnt know that. They had almost no degenerative diseases. Europeans and early civilization turned humans into animals, crammed us together and as a result of that and other factors (like stress, known to promote disease) diseases started developing that killed many people. Natives didnt have any of these diseases. They were quite healthy and their lifespan was not eclipsed until the 20th century! FACT!

Diabetes: refer to what I just said. We have created this disease. Natives never had this originally. The new drugs that are being introduced by pharmaceuticals only make bacteria more resistant to drug treatment and more powerful, getting step closer every day to becoming a plague that can wipe humans out.

As for the woman you are talking about, there were probably other reasons for her illness. I did research on the causes of my problems, and I found the right way. She might have been suffering from something else. Everyone is unique. Once you are exposed to a disease its not easy to just get rid of it by becoming a vega,n thats plain silly! A strong immune system must be developed first. The fast evolution of today's bacteria due to drugs is making everyone succeptable to become ill, no matter how healthy you are. You'll catch it and maybe surgery can help (surgery does not always remove cancer, and not often). As long as we continue to enhance drugs, chemicals and pollution to our lifestyle, we will be at risk of a very powerful disease developing somewhere, kinda like SARS in horribly polluted Asia.

Another example is allergies. When growing up in a small town in Russia, up until the age of 8 I never heard of "allergies". I simply didnt know what they were. I dont have any allergies. I came to Canada with my parents/family, and my youngest brother was born, and he has several allergies. How do you explain that? He's the only person in our long extended family and friends who were born in Russia who have allergies??? Obviously something's wrong here in Canada.

So lets see what you have to say about this. Even though you didnt answer to all my points in my previous post. Ignorance ...

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Right. That's why our average lifespan is now 5 times longer than it was 200 years ago. Or is that another conspiracy? Oh, and how about diseases like polio that have been exterminated thanks to the vaccines? And what about the fact that people were dying off pneumonia and syphillis and all other sorts of diseases years ago and are now just routine cases that get well in a couple of weeks? Or is that all a government conspiracy? Yeah, the plague was not terminal, Decameron was written by the US government agents.

Average lifespan up 5 times??? What a bull of crap! You've been brainwashed! In 1900, average lifespan is by many estimates 45-55 years. In my village in Russia where I grew up, everyone lived at least to 70 years of age, for over 2 centuries of recorded history. Natives (the true natives, not the ones in North America) live around the same time.

The reason for 'increasing' lifespan is not disease-free world - actually diseases are on the rise, and are number one cause of death. Some reasons for higher lifespan include proper nutrition (vitamins), enough food supplies, proper housing - in other words better support mechanisms for life, but NOT quality. Food has been degrading in quality in the last 50 years alone. You expect me to believe that eating gum, junk food, chemical-made candy/food, consuming alcohol, drugs and other crap are benefitial for health? Yeah right.

About Project Northwoods. Imagine this example. Some guy writes a story about how he captures some girls, binds them, tortures them and kills them in a horrible way.

Then people like you just say, well it way just his boredness and he is really never going to do that kind of stuff. Its just his ideas.

But in reality is, if someone is that sick to write that horrible story, then they have the willingness to carry it out. CIA would have acarried that attack if not for Kennedy firing Allen Dulles, the psychopath behind the story. Funny thing to note that JFK was assassinated later. I can imagine what for. And it wasnt just Allen Dulles who proposed Project Northwoods, it was a a collective plan by the top brass of CIA. After all, they already had experience in Iran and Italy with this kind of sabotage. ANd then you just discard that the government never thought about doing it on their own people. Neo-cons wanted it, and they got it. Over the 1980s, they perfected their bombings and sabotage ways in third world countries that even you acknowledge, sometimes these actions involved attacks against American citizens!!!! Did you know that>

Well, never mind, ignorance is bliss, right? But I dont think so.

Governments have a place of power for which they need to be accountable for every step of the way. They need to be as open to people as possible. Just like the foundations of American democracy is "We, The People". Do you know the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty"? Well, it comes very well in this case. Actions of the government cannot be approved and without the government being absolutely clear, honest, and forthcoming, with nothing to hide kind of attitude - which we haven't seen. In USA it hasnt been like that in nearly 200 years. So if they have nothing to hide, why are they being so vague? Main political rule is: "Here are the conclusions. What hard evidence can we draw from them?", while it should be "Here is the hard, unquestionable evidence. What conclusions can we draw from this?" So far the US government has been very shady and not cooperative with peoples inquiries to 9/11. If they have nothing to hide and are absolutely not connected, why cant they just release ALL the evidence, all the video footage, all the phone calls, all the communications reports, and when federal agents will stop threating people who express or desire for the truth.

In reality, Operation Northwoods would have been carried out if not Kennedy condemning it and some info on the Project leaking out to the public. But the document was only completely declassified in 1999. Noone was ever charged for this horrendous act of treachery, an act of planning to murder your own people for a sick hoorrible political war. The only thing that happened was Allen Dulles being fired. Gee weez, that a relief! Bullsh-t. What about the other CIA operatives who helped write that plan, whose names appear on that document? They stayed in CIA. Their ideas were only postponed, since if they were to carry out the attack, it would have been obvious that they did it. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

So again, this above point is the conclusive evidence enought to implicate the entire US government in treachery, especially the CIA.

Oh, here's an even bigger break: I was just reading the Operation Northwoods and guess what's the big thing in it:

Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.

Eh..fine, whatever...I'll continue.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Why do we have all the diseases? Ask the Native Americans, who were almost wiped out by smallpox and flu that was previously unknown to them, I bet you didnt know that. They had almost no degenerative diseases. Europeans and early civilization turned humans into animals, crammed us together and as a result of that and other factors (like stress, known to promote disease) diseases started developing that killed many people. Natives didnt have any of these diseases. They were quite healthy and their lifespan was not eclipsed until the 20th century! FACT!

Fact. Isolated populations build antibodies to endogenous disease. If you bring in a disease endogenous of another population group, that population won't have the immune defense to fight it.

What exactly do you mean by "degenerative" disease? Aging is a degenerative process.

I'd like you to give proof that the native inhabitants of the Americas had no "dengerative" diseases prior to European conquest, and that their life expectancy was anywhere near the mid 70s or so that it is today, I'd love to see your sources.

If you want to look at a major cause in the decline of life expectancy, look no further than the agricultural revolution. By switching from a hunter/gatherer means of sustenance to a sedentary farming society, height decreased by a half a foot on average, dental disease and defects increased 50% and the life span of the average adult went from 26 to 19. The is not even taking to account the new food allergies that because to be expressed at the time. It's a whole over conversation.

The vegan diet is far from "natural," in fact it goes against the very diet that humans evolved eating. Even vegetarians will admit that the only reliable sources of B12 (required in conjunction with intrinsic factor to prevent pernicious anemia) is from animal sources. Today, vegans must supplement their diets artificially with B12, along with folic acid, because plant sources along cannot provide either of them. It's kind of interesting how a "natural" diet would kill you if you indeed followed it strictly.

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Diabetes: refer to what I just said. We have created this disease. Natives never had this originally. The new drugs that are being introduced by pharmaceuticals only make bacteria more resistant to drug treatment and more powerful, getting step closer every day to becoming a plague that can wipe humans out.

Do you have any idea of what the etiology of type I diabetes is? Do you realize there is a differnce between type I and type II diabetes? Do you also understand that type I diabetics have been recorded since at least the second millennium BC? Do you know what "etiology" even means? Type I can occur in two ways, either as an autoimmune disease or a birth defect in which certain key enzymes or stages in the synthesis of insulin have been destroyed. No amount of happy plant eating is go to change a physiological dysfunction inherit in an individual since birth. If you can show someone how eating your way is going to lead a diabetic's Islets of Langerhans to magically begin to work, even when they were born without them working, then you've got a Nobel prize on your hands.

Let me guess though. If you're born with any type of disease what-so-ever, it's because mamma and daddy weren't eating right and being "normal healthy people." I know of a Down's syndrome support group at the hospital where I work that would love to hear your thoughts on that.

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As for the woman you are talking about, there were probably other reasons for her illness. I did research on the causes of my problems, and I found the right way. She might have been suffering from something else. Everyone is unique. Once you are exposed to a disease its not easy to just get rid of it by becoming a vega,n thats plain silly! A strong immune system must be developed first. The fast evolution of today's bacteria due to drugs is making everyone succeptable to become ill, no matter how healthy you are. You'll catch it and maybe surgery can help (surgery does not always remove cancer, and not often). As long as we continue to enhance drugs, chemicals and pollution to our lifestyle, we will be at risk of a very powerful disease developing somewhere, kinda like SARS in horribly polluted Asia.

I see, so you have to be proactive in your diet. So I guess once you've already gotten sick it's game over. You can just chalk it up to not eating right before you acquired your terminal disease. I hope that offers you some consolence as you slowly die shunning modern medical practices.

If you'd like to know why disease continues to evolve at such a tremendous rate, I'll give you two reasons. First, large condensed areas of population. Lots of hosts equals lots of breeding equals lots of genetic variation and lots of new diseases. Where to we see new diseases arise? Highly populated areas of the world such as China, India and parts of Africa. Our science is not leading to more disease, our sheer populations are. The old wives's tail about not taking your antibiotics correctly leading to increased speciation is true however. People are told to go on a 2-4 week regimen of antibiotics. what happens? They take it for a week and feel better, and then they stop. The antibiotics kill off all of the bacteria it was designed for, but not those that are immune. But, instead of keeping the antibiotic regimen in place, so the body can defeat the remaining bacteria, you get an "after-bloom" of sorts after prematurely ending your antibiotic regimen. That causes the body to have to fight the original disease and allow the nonimmunoresponsive bacteria to continue to grow. That's not science's fault, it's people not following the damn directions' fault.

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Another example is allergies. When growing up in a small town in Russia, up until the age of 8 I never heard of "allergies". I simply didnt know what they were. I dont have any allergies. I came to Canada with my parents/family, and my youngest brother was born, and he has several allergies. How do you explain that? He's the only person in our long extended family and friends who were born in Russia who have allergies??? Obviously something's wrong here in Canada.

The most current and well-supported cause of allergies is cleanliness related. Our immune system is constantly working, whether sick or not, to prevent disease and infection. Normally, you always have something going on that your immune system is fighting. So, what happens when your levels of cleanliness rise to the point that your immune system no longer has anything to fight? It begins to attack itself. Most commonly these symptoms occur in the sinuses and nasal passages as these areas already tend to have high numbers of immune system cells. So, normally inhaled pollen or mold spores would have been simply swallowed, but now the immune system goes into overdrive. The immune system response causes sneezing, watery eyes and the like...the whole histamine response. There have been several studies that show (University of Iowa comes to mind) that if an individual suffering from allergies is given pathogens artificially, allergy response decreases. I guess you can say having allergies is a bi-product of leading such healthy lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerative_disease < YES, like aging. Its quite normal for people to age.

I dont have the time to search it up now, but its a fact that up to a half of natives died out from diseases that were introduced to them by Europeans. Basically, that says it all about their healthy lifestyles. They were obviously not adapted to the horrible diseases Europeans were carrying - why blame Indians for having healthier lifestyles? You want proof? See http://www.google.ca/search?num=20&...+decay%22&meta= . Check out some of those great articles on how few degenerative diseases natives have and our threat to them (our diseases can wipe them out).

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If you want to look at a major cause in the decline of life expectancy, look no further than the agricultural revolution. By switching from a hunter/gatherer means of sustenance to a sedentary farming society, height decreased by a half a foot on average, dental disease and defects increased 50% and the life span of the average adult went from 26 to 19.

Exactly my point. Except the lifespan, of course. Natives lived separatrely from civilization and usually did not keep records of their life expectancies, which was only calculated last century - amazing high to shock historians. Your data only includes life expectancies of people in civilization.

As for veganism: its not completely healthy, though its a step in the right direction. I take my B12 supplements, yes I know about the vitamins. I take them every day.

As for diabetes: yes, I know about that. Its just the same story for tuberculousis. My point is, natives dont have it. And we are about to infect them with our unhealthy foods that their bodies are not used to.

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I see, so you have to be proactive in your diet. So I guess once you've already gotten sick it's game over. You can just chalk it up to not eating right before you acquired your terminal disease. I hope that offer you some condolence and you slowly die while shunning modern medical practices.

Answer me this. If you were healthy, and then suffered radiation exposure or some kind of poisoning, for example, will it matter how strong immune system do you have? Of course not! Same thing with some flesh eating diseases, contagius diseases and stuff. Strong immune system does not guarantee from disease, you simply have to avoid contact with people. Thats what I was trying to say.

Taking antibiotics weakens your immune system and subsequently your health. Why let drugs suppress your system when your body was designed to fight the agents? Bacteria eventually develops immunity to the antibiotics, especially if they are used in wrong amounts - its actually very hard to choose the perfect amount as everyone's bodies are different, and some factors include body size, health. Remember, drugs do not cure disease. ONLY THE BODY CAN CURE ITSELF.

Messing around with genetic engineering/cloning is another possible result of some of the horrific diseases out there, like using animal organs for humans. As all species carry out different illnesses that can jump when genes are mixed and create pandemics like the feared avian flu H5N1. In a way I believe AIDS was a result of a genetic project in Africa gone wrong. Its a very dangeround prject that can wipe us out. When dieases jump species barriers, immune systems have no idea as to how to fight the illness and are annihilated. Diseases only jump in rare cases of really close contact with another species, like contact through blood or genes. Chances for mutation get higher and when it happens, it can spread via other species.

In above link for google I added tooth decay to decrease results, but I am sure you can read the fine print on "no degenerative diseases" on natives in the descriptions of almsot every article.

Here's a random article on degenerative diseases and how natives rarely if ever have degenerative diseases.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...a&ct=clnk&cd=12

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Originally posted by NeoPhono The most current and well-supported cause of allergies is cleanliness related. Our immune system is constantly working, whether sick or not, to prevent disease and infection. Normally, you always have something going on that your immune system is fighting. So, what happens when your levels of cleanliness rise to the point that your immune system no longer has anything to fight? It begins to attack itself. Most commonly these symptoms occur in the sinuses and nasal passages as these areas already tend to have high numbers of immune system cells. So, normally inhaled pollen or mold spores would have been simply swallowed, but now the immune system goes into overdrive. The immune system response causes sneezing, watery eyes and the like...the whole histamine response. There have been several studies that show (University of Iowa comes to mind) that if an individual suffering from allergies is given pathogens artificially, allergy response decreases. I guess you can say having allergies is a bi-product of leading such healthy lives.

Growing up, I was exposed to many elements, and I guess my immune system I have today is a result of that. I understand how allergies develop. I dont spend my time in only one place (a good way for allergies to develop if they are not used to fight a certain bacteria). The only thing I am worries about is my vegetarian habits might cause an allergy later on. But I am 22 now, so my body should have developed the necessary antibodies by now to avoid that.

I dont hate meat and milk products. I just dont trust the chemicals and antibiotics that are added to them that consumers eat. I think they weaken your immune system/health. The bacteria that survives is immune to those antibiotics. It ends up in our bodies and affects us negatively. This can result in diseases, as these bacteria jump species barriers and are previously unknown to human immune system. Just like the Native Indians got the European treatment, this can happen to us anytime now. We are living in the dangerous times.

A lot of disease is linked by some to animal products we consume, as described above - mutations of bacteria to attack other species that have absolutely no immunity to them.

oh, this is too funny. after the world cup, pkc\'s prestigious \'idiot of the month award\' sig will be making a stellar comeback!

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Originally posted by NeoPhono She stopped eating meat, took all the vitamins and herbal supplements she could get her hands on, and even went to Mexico for some "holistic" therapy.

Gerson Institute perhaps? My grandfather went there when he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He still died.

This guy is a lunatic and with every post he makes, he further proves his point. I'm beginning to think he's merely trolling. Or maybe he's a scientologist.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerative_disease < YES, like aging. Its quite normal for people to age. I dont have the time to search it up now, but its a fact that up to a half of natives died out from diseases that were introduced to them by Europeans. Basically, that says it all about their healthy lifestyles. They were obviously not adapted to the horrible diseases Europeans were carrying - why blame Indians for having healthier lifestyles? You want proof? See http://www.google.ca/search?num=20&...+decay%22&meta= . Check out some of those great articles on how few degenerative diseases natives have and our threat to them (our diseases can wipe them out). Exactly my point. Except the lifespan, of course. Natives lived separatrely from civilization and usually did not keep records of their life expectancies, which was only calculated last century - amazing high to shock historians. Your data only includes life expectancies of people in civilization.

Again, please show me these numbers. You suggested that only in the last few decades did we again reach this life expectancy. Can you show me sources, showing the "shock" of these historians, that can scientifically show pre-European Americans came somewhere close to the 70 year life expectancy we have today? I'm sorry, but I need more than your word and you saying, "fact."

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As for veganism: its not completely healthy, though its a step in the right direction. I take my B12 supplements, yes I know about the vitamins. I take them every day.

Well, the article you listed below is about the paleo-diet, something I wrote a thesis paper on during my senior year as an undergrad. A paleo diet receives most of its caloric intake via meat, with nuts, fruits and vegetables being used as supplementary sources of vitamins, minerals and fibers. 75-90% of the calories in the paleolithic diet came from meats, how exactly is your vegan diet a "step in the right direction" when you post a diet that is almost completely the opposite below?

Highly processed foods are not good for you, I'm not sure why there is even a debate as to that. The debate you started was that by being a "normal healthy person," and eating a vegan diet, you would be disease free. Now you're saying that being a vegan isn't completely healthy and it must be supplemented. On top of that, you'd listed someone professing the merits of the paleo diet, one which a vegan would never be able to follow. I'm really not sure when we're going to get a clear answer as to what diet you think is truly healthy. Veganism and the paleo-diet are on quite opposite ends of the spectrum. If it's a strict vegan diet, you've already said that it is not completely healthy and must be supplemented. If it's the paleo diet than your previous post stating that being a vegan leads to a disease-free life is not the way either.

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As for diabetes: yes, I know about that. Its just the same story for tuberculosis. My point is, natives dont have it. And we are about to infect them with our unhealthy foods that their bodies are not used to.

No, you don't get it. Type I diabetes is a genetic defect. Tuberculosis is an acquired disease. People are born with type I diabetes, but they must contract tuberculosis. Are people born with Down's syndrome carrying a contractible disease? Can you acquire mental retardation, enzymatic diseases or genetic deficiencies through contact? The answer is easily 'no.' That is the point, inheritable genetic diseases have little or nothing to do with diet or foods. It has to do with natural variation and mutation. Every population on earth has their share of inheritable genetic deficiencies, including native American populations. Show me a shred of scientific evidence that says native Americans had no genetic disease prior to the European invasion. Furthermore, show me that native Americans did not have type I diabetes (a pandemic affliction for at least the past 4,000 years) before the time of the European conquests.

Tuberculosis and Type I Diabetes have two completely different etiologies and the later is in no way related to "unhealthy foods that our bodies are not used to." Neither is tuberculosis for that matter.

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Answer me this. If you were healthy, and then suffered radiation exposure or some kind of poisoning, for example, will it matter how strong immune system do you have? Of course not! Same thing with some flesh eating diseases, contagius diseases and stuff. Strong immune system does not guarantee from disease, you simply have to avoid contact with people. Thats what I was trying to say.

Well there we have it, no matter how well you eat, your immune system can still fail. Your solution is to isolate yourself from population groups and thus disease. I'm not sure if you think what you're saying is some new, revolutionary idea. Of course if you stay away from any communicable diseases you won't get them. That's the whole idea behind quarantines. But that method or preventing disease has nothing to do with what food you eat. It also does nothing to prevent genetic disease, the diseases you are also questioning.

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Taking antibiotics weakens your immune system and subsequently your health. Why let drugs suppress your system when your body was designed to fight the agents? Bacteria eventually develops immunity to the antibiotics, especially if they are used in wrong amounts - its actually very hard to choose the perfect amount as everyone's bodies are different, and some factors include body size, health. Remember, drugs do not cure disease. ONLY THE BODY CAN CURE ITSELF.

Huh? Can you show me the physiology behind your statement? How exactly do antibiotics weaken your immune system? The immune system of someone with a bacterial infection is already weakened. If the person was able to fight off the infection by themselves, they wouldn't be taking the antibiotics in the first place. Antibiotics target bacteria cell walls, how does that affect the host's immune system? I'm also not sure how the argument that drugs need to be dosed according to the individual makes them a bad thing. A small person requires a different amount of drug for the same effect as a large person would receive. It's no different from the amount of alcohol required to get someone drunk, or the amount of food needed to satiate one's appetite varying by the individual. I see antibiotics used successfully in the hospital setting every day during the fight with cancer. There are rubrics used to calculate antibiotic usage, and they work quite well. Again, antibiotics are used because the BODY CAN'T CURE ITSELF.

The next time you or someone you know gets pneumonia or bronchitis, don't take any antibiotics. Just eat right, and we'll see what happens.

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Messing around with genetic engineering/cloning is another possible result of some of the horrific diseases out there, like using animal organs for humans. As all species carry out different illnesses that can jump when genes are mixed and create pandemics like the feared avian flu H5N1. In a way I believe AIDS was a result of a genetic project in Africa gone wrong. Its a very dangeround prject that can wipe us out. When dieases jump species barriers, immune systems have no idea as to how to fight the illness and are annihilated. Diseases only jump in rare cases of really close contact with another species, like contact through blood or genes. Chances for mutation get higher and when it happens, it can spread via other species.

This is exactly the same basis as a new population group spreading its non-endogenous diseases to other population groups. This transfer of disease from animal to human is also as old as time itself. In fact, it increased greatly when the domestication of animals occurred and can be seen today in it's greatest ferocity in places where people live alongside animal groups.

This has nothing to do with genetic engineering, and everything to do with evolutionary biology. Eating healthy won't do anything to stop it (pathogen evolution). I guess we'd have to go back to your previous example and just completely separate ourselves from all sources of infection. In this case, we're just going to have to live away from all animals.

Okay, I just want to see if I can clarify some of the double-talk that we've gotten so far.

1. Living as a healthy normal person using the vegan diet will cause the immune system to be able to defeat any disease, and you will live disease free.
2. The vegan diet will not allow you to live disease free, but is a step in the right direction.
3. The paleo-diet (the one you listed) is the diet which can be used to live disease free. This diet is actually quite the opposite from the vegan diet.
4. The only way for the body to overcome disease is for it to cure itself.
5. If exposed to radiation or poison (disease), the body cannot cure itself.
6. The only way to stay disease free is to isolate yourself from all disease.

So in the end, it's not what you eat, it's staying away from sick people. Brilliant.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Can you acquire mental retardation, enzymatic diseases or genetic deficiencies through contact? The answer is easily 'no.'

I know you're right, but I couldn't help but note that we may have found an exception.

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Huh? Can you show me the physiology behind your statement? How exactly do antibiotics weaken your immune system?

Not sure why I'm even going here, but if I'm going to give him any credit for having a functioning head, I'm going to assume he's referring to the immune system building up a resistance to certain anti-biotics after multiple or prolonged exposure to certain of them. I don't see how this makes a person's immune system weaker, however. I do see how it renders external drugs less effective for some people over time.

Immune system was designed to fight illnesses very well, improving over time. In today's world, the diseases are becoming too powerful for the immune system - thats my whole point. Taking drugs makes bacteria more drug resistant. Facts!!! So basically we're creating more deadly strains of disease!!! Thats why the immune system cant fight it anymore!!! So whose fault is it? Humans! We created it, our fault. Natives never had these horrible diseases. I see that your point is that its good to be exposed to these terrible diseases so that we can create very powerful drugs that can wipe us out anytime.

If Natives didnt have degenerative diseases, and had only 1% tooch decay, thats TWO major proof points of their higher life expenctancy. I cant find the proof at the moment, other than in an excellent book: "Last Hours Of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann.

Oh, and I never said anything about mental retardation, enzymatic diseases or genetic deficiencies. So stop changing topics! I said acquiring diseases through genetic engineering!

If you think antibiotics and drugs are so good, then why are there more diseases out there? Alzheimers, AIDS, Lou Gerig's - theese are all new diseases! You expect me to believe that everything's alright and its OK to live in the world of more sick people and illness is normal! Thats bullsh-t. Cancer is growing, for example. So it obesity. So is tubercoulosis. So is AIDS, diabetics. There's no end in sight. And you're telling me fairy tales.

All you do is shoot holes in my story. Well, then, how about you answer me, why is disease on the rise, and what is your alleged medicine/science/antibiotics doing about it? Are they curbing the spread of disease? Are governments working hard to bring healthier lifestyles, and where are the positive results?

I rest my case. I expect you to tell me a bunch of horseshit of how wonderful our science is and that we're winning the war on disease. We're actually losing the war. Drugs and antibiotics have failed. We need another direction. We need to concentrate on prevention. We need to educate people better. None of these any other positive things have been implemented, largely at fault of governments, corporations and religion (religion only takes solace that the end of the world is coming - what a relief!!!!)

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Originally posted by Magnetonium All you do is shoot holes in my story. Well, then, how about you answer me, why is disease on the rise, and what is your alleged medicine/science/antibiotics doing about it? Are they curbing the spread of disease? Are governments working hard to bring healthier lifestyles, and where are the positive results? I rest my case. I expect you to tell me a bunch of horseshit of how wonderful our science is and that we're winning the war on disease. We're actually losing the war. Drugs and antibiotics have failed. We need another direction. We need to concentrate on prevention. We need to educate people better. None of these any other positive things have been implemented, largely at fault of governments, corporations and religion (religion only takes solace that the end of the world is coming - what a relief!!!!)

Disease is on the rise? Since when?

This tetracycline has definitely cleared up my little bacterial infection pretty damn well. Never failed me.

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