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-- Miller wants to tear down Gardiner
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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Unfortunately the rich white yuppies here think that public transportation is for poor people and it's somehow detrimental to their ego's to make use of it.

why would i use public transportation to take me over an hour and a half to get to work when it takes me 15-25 min with my car.


that puts alot of strain on me physically and mentally, less sleep, more stress and i can't concetrate while working.

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Originally posted by mute79 Here's a novel idea. Move to the city! This is precisely the problem. See, gardiner is a byproduct of '60s (sub)urban planning in north america, which dictated that people work in the city and live in suburbs. This is has proven to be catastrophical in creating cohesive urban environments. So, gardiner is just a remnant of an obsolete belief, and no longer serves a purpose! Why should the city have to pay $10m/annually, to maintain a failed philosophy? Or, why should I, by default, have to continue to inhale fumes of those driving into the city who refuse to use public transit? And to answer your question, Go Train will take you to all those you towns specified in less than an hour.

move to the city yes there is an idea.

pay triple the taxes, quadrouple the cost to own a house/condo downtown. do you know what a small bungalo costs downtown? nevermind if you could find one. why would i leave the suburbs in my beautiful house where i can raise a family with plenty of space and not have to hear downtown toronto traffic or look up and massive buildings blocking out the sun?

and you are worried about exhaust fumes? go ahead tare down the gardiner. say hello to wayyy more traffic and way more exhaust emissions from idling vehicles. not to mention more wear and tear on the vehicles from stop and go traffic cause more emissions from more srevicing done on cars ie oil changes, brake jobs, tires, transmission. you will be creating more polution in the long run.

a moving car creates way less emissions/wear and tear/longevity than one that is in stop and go traffic.


ever wonder why taxi cabs are always in such rough shape?

The TTC is PACKED every morning and evening rush-hour as it is. What buses do you think all these "rich, white yuppies" are going to fit on? Toronto needs a MUCH bigger subway system, combined with more buses, and even those wicked light-rail cars like they have connecting the hotels in Vegas, to move ENOUGH people around to make even a small dent in the traffic in Toronto. I also think that streetcars need to be scrapped entirely. They stop ALL the traffic behind them every 2 minutes or less while they move around the city, snarling traffic and causing more smog than if they were just normal, exit/load-on-the-right buses.

Some jobs require that you be driving around ALL day from place to place, and NO transit-system in the world can support that type of demand. Transit is great to get you to and from work, even to get you around downtown for the day, but to move around the entire GTA like some jobs demand, or to get around doing the things you need to do outside of work, you need a personal vehicle.

But even BEFORE spending all our money on a transit-system, step one should be getting people to carpool to work and back, and no government that I know of can force anybody to do that. That has to be something that the people in our society adopt as standard. Get just ONE extra person in every car on the road and chances are good that you're going to reduce the number of cars on the road by a significant margin.

The BIGGEST problem is that we don't know each other. I might live a 2 minute walk from 4 or 5 or hell, 215 people who all work in the same area as me that I could carpool with, but we don't know each other, so every day, 4 or 5 cars hit the road and head to work. We don't live in communities anymore, we live in HOUSES, and we're all anonymous, and that leads to problems like the traffic in Toronto (among a whole variety of other issues and problems that our society insist the government needs to fix, as if they actually can ).

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Originally posted by Spam But even BEFORE spending all our money on a transit-system, step one should be getting people to carpool to work and back, and no government that I know of can force anybody to do that. That has to be something that the people in our society adopt as standard.

I hope you're not suggesting HOV lanes, because the existing ones prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they simply aggravate traffic congestion by reducing the number of "available" lanes for the majority of motorists.

Maybe technology will help us in the future here. Something that caters to the Facebook-addicted anti-social Torontonian with no desire to actually talk to another live human being. You put in your route and it automatically finds someone who lives and works within a 3 km radius of where you live and work, with the stated aim of helping to save on gas costs. It could work.

Of course, maybe it already exists and just failed miserably.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I hope you're not suggesting HOV lanes, because the existing ones prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they simply aggravate traffic congestion by reducing the number of "available" lanes for the majority of motorists. Maybe technology will help us in the future here. Something that caters to the Facebook-addicted anti-social Torontonian with no desire to actually talk to another live human being. You put in your route and it automatically finds someone who lives and works within a 3 km radius of where you live and work, with the stated aim of helping to save on gas costs. It could work. Of course, maybe it already exists and just failed miserably.

http://www.carpoolzone.smartcommute.ca/en/my/

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Originally posted by DigiNut I hope you're not suggesting HOV lanes, because the existing ones prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they simply aggravate traffic congestion by reducing the number of "available" lanes for the majority of motorists. Maybe technology will help us in the future here. Something that caters to the Facebook-addicted anti-social Torontonian with no desire to actually talk to another live human being. You put in your route and it automatically finds someone who lives and works within a 3 km radius of where you live and work, with the stated aim of helping to save on gas costs. It could work. Of course, maybe it already exists and just failed miserably.

the websites are out there. they just don't work.

and frankly i dont want some completel stranger hoping into my truck

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Originally posted by dj_souvlaki and frankly i dont want some completel stranger hoping into my truck

Perhaps that's why they don't work. Hard to say though.

I figured these sites might already be out there, I guess it's just that nobody's found the right formula yet. How many crappy social networking sites had to come out before myspace/Facebook?

Actually, I'll bet they'd get more takers if they just made a Facebook app that did the same thing.

If we're willing to spend billions as a society on public transit and tearing up roads and highways, surely we can experiment with a few million on proactive (not coercive) ways to get people to carpool. Not that I'm saying we should spend tax dollars on any of this, but just promote it, and give it a chance.

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Originally posted by mute79 That's because you're a slave to conservative suburban ideology, and have succumbed to their propaganda. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the TTC, or GO train, or any other piece of public transit.

omg the hipster urbane hippies drones are taking over Toronto too... what a shame

And i thought this breed was only a local specie to the Plateau, gtfo seriously.

People have kids, disabilities, work with their cars, a zillion reasons not to take the bus nor move to overpriced shoeboxes downtown *anycity*.

We should really stop building suburbs and try to start building cities. New York and New Jersey are so close to each other yet they are two large cities. I wish Toronto was similar to that layout. The major cities in Canada are far away from each other. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc.

His suburban boom is getting annoying the more it moves outwards.

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Originally posted by Dior Homme We should really stop building suburbs and try to start building cities. New York and New Jersey are so close to each other yet they are two large cities. I wish Toronto was similar to that layout. The major cities in Canada are far away from each other. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. His suburban boom is getting annoying the more it moves outwards.

NY and NJ are states.

Sorry States.

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Originally posted by Dior Homme We should really stop building suburbs and try to start building cities. New York and New Jersey are so close to each other yet they are two large cities. I wish Toronto was similar to that layout. The major cities in Canada are far away from each other. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. His suburban boom is getting annoying the more it moves outwards.

Unfortunately we don't have 300 yrs to build cities close to each other. NY/NJ area was built during Thirteen colonies era.

quote:

Originally posted by Dior Homme We should really stop building suburbs and try to start building cities. New York and New Jersey are so close to each other yet they are two large cities. I wish Toronto was similar to that layout. The major cities in Canada are far away from each other. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc. His suburban boom is getting annoying the more it moves outwards.

Tu sors d'ou toi avec tes b�tises? Et pourquoi Marseille et Paris sont si �loign�es une de l'autre? Y a une histoire derri�re l'emplacement de chaque ville, ce n'est pas diff�rent au Canada.

Vraiment n'importe quoi.

Might not be important but I guess I prefer to live within the reaches of big cities. Driving through suburbs is mind numbing, nothing much to see.

yeah alt.

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Originally posted by dj_souvlaki move to the city yes there is an idea. pay triple the taxes, quadrouple the cost to own a house/condo downtown. do you know what a small bungalo costs downtown? nevermind if you could find one. why would i leave the suburbs in my beautiful house where i can raise a family with plenty of space and not have to hear downtown toronto traffic or look up and massive buildings blocking out the sun? and you are worried about exhaust fumes? go ahead tare down the gardiner. say hello to wayyy more traffic and way more exhaust emissions from idling vehicles. not to mention more wear and tear on the vehicles from stop and go traffic cause more emissions from more srevicing done on cars ie oil changes, brake jobs, tires, transmission. you will be creating more polution in the long run. a moving car creates way less emissions/wear and tear/longevity than one that is in stop and go traffic. ever wonder why taxi cabs are always in such rough shape?

Taxes are high because the city needs to pay to sustain a failed policy on urban planning (ie. maintain current roads and build new). It is absurd to think that you can build enough roads to have people commute from suburbs, so you need to change people's habits. I hope the trend of converting vast parking spaces to condos speeds up.

MR. MILLER, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 Taxes are high because the city needs to pay to sustain a failed policy on urban planning (ie. maintain current roads and build new). It is absurd to think that you can build enough roads to have people commute from suburbs, so you need to change people's habits. I hope the trend of converting vast parking spaces to condos speeds up. MR. MILLER, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!

But Toronto gets billions of tax revenues from companies that are located in it's downtown, that employ people not living in the city, if the companies moved out closer to their workforce, toronto would be in deeper shit right?

Moreover, Toronto benefits from all the investment the provincial and federal govt make in regard to university/college expansion, art and culture infrastructure, RnD facilities, etc etc. Who collects taxes on these buildings let alone get all the prestige associated with them? certainly not the suburbs right?

You want the cake and eat it too, being the center of a conurbation comes with benefits and side effects.

You speak as if other communities don't get any government subsidies at all. Look at Oakville/Oshawa and the auto industry? And while on this, how many of those workers commute from Toronto?

To bring this back on topic, the issue isn't whether people live in the suburbs and work in the city, the issue is their commuting habits. People simply refuse to get out of their cars and get onto public transit.

You really sound like some authoritarian fascist "people refuse" as if they're or should be forced to do so?

People are free to take their car as you are to bitch here on this forum... get used to it.

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Originally posted by malek You really sound like some authoritarian fascist "people refuse" as if they're or should be forced to do so? People are free to take their car as you are to bitch here on this forum... get used to it.

Good stuff. So what about the new City of Toronto tax - the PVT (personal vehicle tax). The "congestion" on the streets is caused by people commuting from the burbs (who won't pay the PVT).

And yet, I, as the resident of Toronto, have to pay this bullshit fee now.

How about we instead implement a toll system on the downtown (like in London) - want to drive in the city, pay up. I know the downtown-ers rarely use cars in the core and take transit whenever they can. The 'Sauga, Oakville, RichHill, Scarberia, Halton Hills, Milton, Whitby and Pickering residents, on the other hand, enjoy lower insurance on their cars, don't pay the PVT, and yet get to friggin drive down here every day...

So, if people are free to take their car whenever they want - and WE want them to take transit, lets make driving a car in the core more expensive.

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Originally posted by malek People are free to take their car as you are to bitch here on this forum... get used to it.

It has to be a 'build it, and they will come' kind of thing with public transport in the GTA. You probably will not find a bigger advocate for public transport than me, but even I have realised that it just is not practical for a lot of people. I have to include biking and walking to make my routes efficient and cost effective. The average person does not have the patience, dedication, nor physical ability to do it.

Public transport in the suburbs is just horrible. I moved away from Mississauga for the last three years, and came back to the same sparse system that I left. Although the TTC is not perfect, the rest of public transit is a joke in comparison.

Until the transit authorities can show people that they don't actually need the Gardiner, because superior infrastructure is in place, the same practices will continue. And who can blame them?

For instance, to go from Clarkson station in Mississauga, to Union: 4 people, $10.50 each. For $42, you can pick each person up, get gas, pay for parking, and maybe even have enough for a small bite. Plus the train only comes once an hour (aside from rush hour), and so if you miss it, you have to wait. If you bought a $10 jays ticket, you are paying more to get there, than you are on the reason you are going.

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Originally posted by Orko It has to be a 'build it, and they will come' kind of thing with public transport in the GTA. You probably will not find a bigger advocate for public transport than me, but even I have realised that it just is not practical for a lot of people. I have to include biking and walking to make my routes efficient and cost effective. The average person does not have the patience, dedication, nor physical ability to do it.

we are on the exact same wavelenght. Build it and they'll come.

Govts have to be serious and show that they are willing to offer better service before forcing people to abandon their cars with different unproductive measures like HOV, biking lanes, reserved lanes, removing highways, higher gas tax, etc.

Your average joe isn't that stupid, if he can get to his work in approx. the same time cheaper, he'll take it no questions asked... but until then, don't expect him to magically switch because some hippies said so.

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Originally posted by Superstring Good stuff. So what about the new City of Toronto tax - the PVT (personal vehicle tax). The "congestion" on the streets is caused by people commuting from the burbs (who won't pay the PVT). And yet, I, as the resident of Toronto, have to pay this bullshit fee now. How about we instead implement a toll system on the downtown (like in London) - want to drive in the city, pay up. I know the downtown-ers rarely use cars in the core and take transit whenever they can. The 'Sauga, Oakville, RichHill, Scarberia, Halton Hills, Milton, Whitby and Pickering residents, on the other hand, enjoy lower insurance on their cars, don't pay the PVT, and yet get to friggin drive down here every day... So, if people are free to take their car whenever they want - and WE want them to take transit, lets make driving a car in the core more expensive.

These people who drive, do more mileage, consume more gas, hence send more tax to the federal and provincial govts (gas price at the pump are almost taxed at 50%). Moreoever, I bet suburbans are richer than Torontians living in the core, so meaning they send more in income taxes to the different levels of govt which trickles down back to the city of toronto.

If toronto can't manage the billions it reaps in taxes, it means something is wrong at their level, they need to cut services and lower working conditions to their overunionized workforce.

quote:

Originally posted by malek These people who drive, do more mileage, consume more gas, hence send more tax to the federal and provincial govts (gas price at the pump are almost taxed at 50%).

Good point. And I pay the same taxes when I hop on the streetcar and the bus and the subway. Except that downtowners are ok with sharing a ride, spending less gas, sharing the space on the road and wearing down the road infrastructure less -- and 'burber's are not.

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Originally posted by malek Moreoever, I bet suburbans are richer than Torontians living in the core, so meaning they send more in income taxes to the different levels of govt which trickles down back to the city of toronto.

I bet that 95% of statistics on the internet are made up and that 67% of your post is pulled out of your ass. Care to prove otherwise?

quote:

Originally posted by malek If toronto can't manage the billions it reaps in taxes, it means something is wrong at their level, they need to cut services and lower working conditions to their overunionized workforce.

Ah yes, billions in taxes already and overunionized workforce. Yes yes, that is the evil which we are discussing here. Nice diversion.


This discussion has to do with out-of-towners utilizing in-town infrastructure and not paying for it directly to the city of toronto (and no, not to the federal/provincial government, thank you very much).

quote:

Originally posted by Superstring Good stuff. So what about the new City of Toronto tax - the PVT (personal vehicle tax). The "congestion" on the streets is caused by people commuting from the burbs (who won't pay the PVT). And yet, I, as the resident of Toronto, have to pay this bullshit fee now. How about we instead implement a toll system on the downtown (like in London) - want to drive in the city, pay up. I know the downtown-ers rarely use cars in the core and take transit whenever they can. The 'Sauga, Oakville, RichHill, Scarberia, Halton Hills, Milton, Whitby and Pickering residents, on the other hand, enjoy lower insurance on their cars, don't pay the PVT, and yet get to friggin drive down here every day... So, if people are free to take their car whenever they want - and WE want them to take transit, lets make driving a car in the core more expensive.

What the hell does insurance have to do with it? Those are rates set by private firms, due to actual statistics they have collected.

As for all the out of towner's. They are driving into Toronto to generate economic growth for companies, which turn around and pay taxes. They also come in, shop, and keep local businesses going. The average person working downtown pays a lot for that privilege to the local economy, it is not just about taxes. Parking, food, entertainment, that shit adds up. Sure the city has to pay for maintenance for the highway, but the amount of money generated by those people using the highway, far out weighs its cost.

That is the whole point of city infrastructure. Loose money on one part, to gain on another part. Start taxing that infrastructure, and people will find alternatives like relocating to the burbs, and the city will loose even more money.

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