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Originally posted by star-traveller It's not a problem of democracy that people are living in "poverty, himuliation and misery". It's all about people themself. US has to learn 200 years how to build the democarcy before it started to work.

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. USA was WAY MORE DEMOCRATIC back then - just look at the Consitution and see today;s laws like Patriot Act that laugh and spit on people's freedoms - just an example. You got it wrong here, the American democracy is sliding backwards now. They learned democracy on day one, 1776. Since the dawn of the 20th century, since Americans seized the Hawaii islands in a coup, their democracy has been slip-sliding away.

But thats a different topic.

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Originally posted by Q5echo no she doesn't. tathi's feeding you a bunch of anti-war propaganda. that highway doesn't cost billions of dollars. no highway does. we put up $80 million Japan put up $50 million and the Saudis put up $50 million. it's up to Afghans who builds it. don't listen to her dude. http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...oads/index.html

You're right about the price of the highway (it's cost $231 million so far) i got my numbers mucked up because i didn't double check the report i saw on TV a few weeks ago with an internet source and my memory is dodgy (i mistakenly confused the hundred million dollar highway with the fact that billions have been lost through war profiteering) What is true is the disillusionment on the Afghani street towards US and Nato promises of a better life for them, they are angry that only 2000 Afghanis were employed along with an Indian firm and three Turkish firms to build a 230million dollar highway. Its gotten to the point where many would prefer to see the Taliban back in power, not because they believe in their fundamentalist doctrine but because they could at least feed their families under that brutal regime.

The US are taking a step in the right direction by bringing in a bill to prevent billions of dollars from lining the pockets of corrupt corporations and officials through the "War Profiteering Prevention Act of 2006.� http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200603/030206d.html

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Billions appropriated for the continuing war efforts and for reconstruction are unaccounted for, and fraud has been rampant. The recent report of the special inspector general confirms that U.S. taxpayer funds appropriated for reconstruction have been lost and diverted. There are, of course, anti-fraud laws to protect against waste of tax dollars at home. But none expressly prohibits war profiteering, and none expressly confers jurisdiction for fraud overseas. This bill would criminalize "war profiteering" -- overcharging taxpayers in order to defraud and to profit excessively from a war, military action, or reconstruction efforts. It would prohibit any fraud against the United States involving a contract for the provision of goods or services in connection with a war, military action, or for relief or reconstruction activities. This new crime would be a felony, subject to criminal penalties of up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $1 million or twice the illegal gross profits of the crime.

ps. I was for war in Afghanistan because of its legitimate casus belli. Iraq on the other hand is a completely different matter...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium tHANKS! I'll take your word for it, this makes even more sense, I always thought it was cheaper to pay Afghanis than Turks from abroad ;-)

Hey! tathi's a bad ass who's on top of his game, especially when it comes to an understanding of political issues .

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Originally posted by Magnetonium In the latter years of the communism's heydays, the inner cicles of the communist party were working hard to undermine Gorbachev. You probably never heard about how average citizens found stockpiles of rotting food disposed in the forests. The party was working hard to stop perestroyka. They actually attempted the putch later as a last attack on the reforms. But pretty much everyone had jobs, security, food (well, for some part), there was little or no drugs on the streets, no AIDS, low crime. People demanded freedom. In 1991, people got their freedom, but lost pretty much everything else. Overnight, many Russians' savings disappeared due to inflation and currency devaluation. And so on ... If communists were bad, what the bureaucrats did in early-mid 1990s was much worse. They sold off the entire country for literally pennies to small businessmen like Abramovich, Berezovskiy, Gusinskiy as part of the world's BIGGEST and most APPALING privatization program. While rich got richer, the poor got poorer. Millions of pensioners and farmers, normal folks were decimated. Alcohol, drugs, AIDS, unemployment exploded. Organized crime took in the vaccum of power. The government could care less about the people, Yeltsin drank more than worked - at times his own daughter signed the laws!!! And so on ... There's a reason why you and me left Russia in 1990s, my friend. If democratic Russia was so good, why did millions of Russia emigrate to the West since 1991? Why did over 500 BILLION dollars in capital leave Russia?

Don't be so blind. That was a fake security. The country was living in a huge debt. Farmers were deciminated only because the whole argricultural industry was fully sponsored by the goverment. They didn't know how to do business and be profitable at all, because they were forbiden doing this.

It is funny you mentioned Alchohol again. Don't you know that it was a problem #1 in the USSR ? Most of the people of that time were too reluctant to do anything. And why they should ? When they can be sure that the goverment supports their average way of life. There was no competition AT ALL in any industry or place.
In US if you are working hard you can be rewared by a getting bonus and similiar things like this. But there was nothing like this in Russia at that time. Worker's class was just a huge black hole.

But I'm not suprised at all. It's the typical trait in the Russian character. When they don't feel any threat or danger from outside they won't do anything at all.

I just want to conclude by saying that Russia is emerging right now, and it's not the same as it was during the Soviet time. But that doesn't mean that it's worse.

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Originally posted by tathi ps. I was for war in Afghanistan because of its legitimate casus belli. Iraq on the other hand is a completely different matter...

That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it had a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen.

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Originally posted by star-traveller That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it has a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen.

The Russians would have done it better too, because they would have killed all the population. Not like Americans who try to remain as civil as possible.

Russians, Americans whatever. As long as their actions do not harm their own population and the rest of the civilized world keep quiet they don't care whom to kill.

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Originally posted by star-traveller Don't be so blind. That was a fake security. The country was living in a huge debt. Farmers were deciminated only because the whole argricultural industry was fully sponsored by the goverment. They didn't know how to do business and be profitable at all, because they were forbiden doing this. It is funny you mentioned Alchohol again. Don't you know that it was a problem #1 in the USSR ? Most of the people of that time were too reluctant to do anything. And why they should ? When they can be sure that the goverment supports their average way of life. There was no competition AT ALL in any industry or place. In US if you are working hard you can be rewared by a getting bonus and similiar things like this. But there was nothing like this in Russia at that time. Worker's class was just a huge black hole. But I'm not suprised at all. It's the typical trait in the Russian character. When they don't feel any threat or danger from outside they won't do anything at all. I just want to conclude by saying that Russia is emerging right now, and it's not the same as it was during the Soviet time. But that doesn't mean that it's worse.

Fake security? Yeah, tell that to the millions of workers who lost jobs after the break-up, millions of pensioners and disabled who lost dividents and were no longer receiving money on time, and the inflation wasnt counted on it - I know, I've been with my grandparents, see it all. Tell this to the 700,000 Russians who have contracted HIV/AIDS since 1991. Tell it to the Chechens, Abkhazians, the decimated peoples of the Far East and Far North who lost funding and income because the state went bankrupt aftet the dissolution of Soviet Union. Tell it to the tens of thousands of children, who became homeless after their parents threw them out or became homeless themselves. Tell it to the ... oh, my, the examples are countless!!!

Sure it wasnt paradise under communist in Soviet Union - but for most part people had jobs, security, food (for most part), no AIDS and shit, tight borders. They whined about lack of free speech and shit. Then they started whining in 1990s about the poor living conditions.

Alcohol was always a problem. BUT WHEN SOVIET UNION FELL APART, it became A BIGGER problem, because people's problems GOT BIGGER! Many more people die from alcohol in Russia than in Soviet Union.

My dad told me stories of how he partied in 1980s ... discoteques, bars, friends and stuff. People had fun, people had enough. Instead of taking changes slowly, they demanded freedom, and it tore up Soviet Union, with thanks to the idiot inner circles of Communist Party as well.

You know why Soviet economy, industry and farming was failing and under-planned? Because people in charge of it weren't experts in the field - they were communist party members who didnt know jack shit about their fields. So they would one year make too many tractors, wasting money and watching the excess tractors sit and rust. And so with agriculture, politics, etc. etc.

quote:

Originally posted by star-traveller That was a pathetic war. The war that the US has leaded against the CIA trained fighters. Russia is the one who should've been wipe out all those bastards when it has a chance. But thanks to the US it didn't happen.

Taliban / mujahideen were American trained and supported. Basically after Americans withdrew, Pro-American supported funded and trained Taliban took over. There are plenty videos and info out there showing Taliban touring USA, talking with senior officials ...


Oh I forgot the most important thing with this Russian topic: In the Chechen war, the first one, Russian forces DECIMATED the urban areas like Grozny. Most people who lived in the city were ethnic Russian, and since they didnt have any connections in the rural areas or in the mountains, they stayed in the city, while many Chechens left for mountains and suburbs because they had extended family and connections. AND MOST of the people who stayed behind, ethnic Russians, that is - were the ONES WHO WERE SLAUGHTERED/BOMBARDED/PILLAGED/ROBBED by the ill-equipped, corrupted dirty Russian army filled with young 18-year-old conscripts who have only been holding the guns for the first time.

So its not like Russian forces killed Chechens - they killed their own people, and sold guns to the rebels for drugs and money and fought them the next day too. It was a very wacky time in Chechnya in 1990s, I'd say the worst blunder by Yeltsin and his commanders and terrible terrible era ... I've read enough about entire cities, roads, armies wiped out ... both Russian and Chechen fighters killed civilians, Russians for money and Chechens for retribution helping Russians (like the Kadirov senior, who was killed by a bomb in 2003)

So I am not just one sided. I was against the first Chechen war, but supporting the second war. I can discuss why later if you want to know ;-)

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