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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Interesting answer. I'm not sure it has to be one or the other as it is, in fact, both at present. Wait, do you mean farm and hunt as in hunt the animals we keep as domestic live stock?... like farm deer and then hunt them? If so, sadly we do that already, there are many such farms in the US and one that I know of near Coldwater ON. I think that if we were to immediately free all domesticated animals and end commercial meat production in favour of hunting our own cows and chickens we would have a major ecological disaster as no natural environment could sustain that burden. I'm sorry if I mistook your meaning though as I suspect I may have. I would imagine that if not for commercial farms we would see commercial hunting instead. Without question meat would be a lot more expensive and the economy would slow down tremendously but I doubt we'd really have to sacrafice progress.

No, I didn't mean farm them to hunt them, I meant, EITHER farm for meat OR hunt for meat, both is nothing more than an excuse for 'sport'.

I also wouldn't want to free all animals, I was simply trying to say that as we can NEVER get back to the days where we hunted for our meat, we really need to look at the practices we undertake and that your hunting example was futile as a result of the fact that we can't turn back time.

Your last point, I totally agree with and is almost my crusade... not commercial hunting per se but humane farming practices at least. Meat SHOULD be expensive and only eaten a few times a week... it is demand from the masses that has brought us to where we are today.

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Originally posted by English Rachel No, I didn't mean farm them to hunt them, I meant, EITHER farm for meat OR hunt for meat, both is nothing more than an excuse for 'sport'.

I wouldn't say it is mearly an excuse for sport. Granted, many hunt for sport, however, there are some who prefer to hunt for food. Additionally, it should be noted that without hunting there would develop an over-population of certain animals (deer most noteably) which would result in disease and ecological problems.

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I also wouldn't want to free all animals, I was simply trying to say that as we can NEVER get back to the days where we hunted for our meat, we really need to look at the practices we undertake and that your hunting example was futile as a result of the fact that we can't turn back time.

Indeed, we cannot turn back time, however, my argument was not that we should. I was mearly trying to see if you objection was to the killing of animals et al or commercial farming specifically. You answered that, and I thank you for it, but I thought you were widening the discussion.

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Your last point, I totally agree with and is almost my crusade... not commercial hunting per se but humane farming practices at least. Meat SHOULD be expensive and only eaten a few times a week... it is demand from the masses that has brought us to where we are today.

You should be pleased to know that more and more farmers (especially in Canada) are adopting free-range and otherwise humane farming practices. This is generally being done because farmers have accepted that happy and active animals produce better meat and dairy products. The days of animals being caged as you described earlier are ending and fast (except for chickens.... they seem to not care... the farmers that is, not the chickens). I would recommend you pay a visit to any Ontario beef farm if you doubt me on this. Unfortunately, slaughter practices remain unchanged with the exception that it is generally done faster and more efficiently then ever before. This is a slight improvement as the animals spend less time in holding prior to slaughter but it is by no means humane.

[/QUOTE]
You should be pleased to know that more and more farmers (especially in Canada) are adopting free-range and otherwise humane farming practices. This is generally being done because farmers have accepted that happy and active animals produce better meat and dairy products. The days of animals being caged as you described earlier are ending and fast (except for chickens.... they seem to not care... the farmers that is, not the chickens). I would recommend you pay a visit to any Ontario beef farm if you doubt me on this. Unfortunately, slaughter practices remain unchanged with the exception that it is generally done faster and more efficiently then ever before. This is a slight improvement as the animals spend less time in holding prior to slaughter but it is by no means humane. [/QUOTE]
totally agree with you there, farmers are people too and care about their animals as well. I think as long as people know where their food is coming from that they can choose whether or not to eat meat.

I have chosen meat mmmmmm

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Originally posted by exstasie It's true though... I don't know any guy who 'decided' on their own they wanted to be become a vegetarian...there has always been a female influence..

Well ... I'm Hindu ... Its kinda my religion

I don't know about being a hazard to morals but you are a hazard to my productivity today... I have done the square root of fuck all...

Good discussion, even if we didn't understand each other all the time

One parting shot from me though, just because I can't help myself... Without our interference, the eco system sorted itself out - there weren't over populations of any given animal as the food chain sorted that out - the problems of the world are all human and we have to live with the guilt and the consequences.

Cruelty is unneccessary whether it is to your fellow man or other living creature. Period.

Now follow me and hug a tree, the world will be a better place for it

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Originally posted by English Rachel One parting shot from me though, just because I can't help myself... Without our interference, the eco system sorted itself out - there weren't over populations of any given animal as the food chain sorted that out - the problems of the world are all human and we have to live with the guilt and the consequences. Cruelty is unneccessary whether it is to your fellow man or other living creature. Period.

Alright, one final retort then.... Indeed, humans have caused a shift in the equalibrium of the world's ecosystems. In the case of game animals the problem we have is that we have removed the natural preditors for most of these animals. We've done this either for our security or simply by establishing ourselves as the dominant preditor thus making the other preditors move on to better hunting grounds. If we were to remove ourselves as a preditor now we would exacerbate the balance problems we've created. It is possible other preditors would fill the void but that would take time and as we've seen when hunting restrictions have been brought in disease and lack of food spreads faster then the preditors return. It is likely that an immediate cesation of hunting would result in near total elimination of many game animals, the same ones you seek to save from the ravages of hunting.... allowing most to all of a population to die of disease or starvation to alieviate our guilt over killing wild animals would also be cruel, agree?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Alright, one final retort then.... Indeed, humans have caused a shift in the equalibrium of the world's ecosystems. In the case of game animals the problem we have is that we have removed the natural preditors for most of these animals. We've done this either for our security or simply by establishing ourselves as the dominant preditor thus making the other preditors move on to better hunting grounds. If we were to remove ourselves as a preditor now we would exacerbate the balance problems we've created. It is possible other preditors would fill the void but that would take time and as we've seen when hunting restrictions have been brought in disease and lack of food spreads faster then the preditors return. It is likely that an immediate cesation of hunting would result in near total elimination of many game animals, the same ones you seek to save from the ravages of hunting.... allowing most to all of a population to die of disease or starvation to alieviate our guilt over killing wild animals would also be cruel, agree?

Agree!

And like I said 20 posts ago, we can't turn back time so we have to make the most of the situation we have created.

Now do NOT get me started on fur.

I answered non-vegetarian, though after new years last year, I went vegetarian for about three months as an experiment.

I generally found I had more energy and didn't have that really "full" feeling after eating. I discovered a whole bunch of foods/grains/protein sources that I had never tried before.

The only thing I missed about eating meat was the convenience of it. Of 10 items on the menu, 8 or 9 were always meat dishes. Vegetarians are often an after thought at restaurants - people assume they can just be fed a salad or pasta and they'll be satisfied. there are so many more creative meals to be had though.

Did you know that the resources needed to raise animals for human consumption could solve world hunger if they were used differently?

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Originally posted by Skipper Did you know that the resources needed to raise animals for human consumption could solve world hunger if they were used differently?

We could also solve world hunger without changing a damned thing by way of the allocation of resources if producers were willing to give away their surpluses and states or NGOs were willing to pay for the transportation thereof. Additionally, we could solve world hunger if people stopped breading in areas where the environment cannot support the existing population. We could also solve world hunger by cutting off all aid to those who are ill and/or starving in the third world and just letting them die off all-together. It seems none of those things will happen though because people are too greedy, too self-interested, and have too much pity for others (respectively to the solutions) to take the necessary actions.

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Originally posted by English Rachel Cruelty is unneccessary whether it is to your fellow man or other living creature. Period.

Mother Nature is so cruel sometimes.
Just ask a gazelle being hunted by lion.

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Now follow me and hug a tree, the world will be a better place for it

<---an evil tree

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard We could also solve world hunger without changing a damned thing by way of the allocation of resources if producers were willing to give away their surpluses and states or NGOs were willing to pay for the transportation thereof. Additionally, we could solve world hunger if people stopped breading in areas where the environment cannot support the existing population. We could also solve world hunger by cutting off all aid to those who are ill and/or starving in the third world and just letting them die off all-together. It seems none of those things will happen though because people are too greedy, too self-interested, and have too much pity for others (respectively to the solutions) to take the necessary actions.

but as an individual, you need to consider what you have control over and how you contribute to either the problem or the solution. Furthermore, global solutions must be balanced with what is humanitarian and what is realistic.

It is not reasonable to expect people to stop breeding and it is not humanitarian to let starving populations around the world eliminate themselves.

The difference between the way the human population hunts its food and the way other animals in the wild hunt their food is that the human race dramatically exploits the animal population to do so. Animals in the wild make do with what is already there. To claim there are any similarities between animals hunting each other in the wild and humans eating meat is simply ignorant.

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Originally posted by Skipper The difference between the way the human population hunts its food and the way other animals in the wild hunt their food is that the human race dramatically exploits the animal population to do so. Animals in the wild make do with what is already there. To claim there are any similarities between animals hunting each other in the wild and humans eating meat is simply ignorant.

+ a bajillion

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Originally posted by Skipper but as an individual, you need to consider what you have control over and how you contribute to either the problem or the solution. Furthermore, global solutions must be balanced with what is humanitarian and what is realistic. It is not reasonable to expect people to stop breeding and it is not humanitarian to let starving populations around the world eliminate themselves.

I would argue that it is also not reasonable for persons starving due to lack of resources to remain complacent in their strife nor is it reasonable to expect others to come to your aid.

I would also argue that allowing the starving populations to "eliminate themselves" is more compassionate then applying band-aid solutions as we are doing today. If the populations of those areas inhospitable to human habitation were allowed to perish then the suffering would stop with the present generation rather then continuing generation after generation in perpituity.

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The difference between the way the human population hunts its food and the way other animals in the wild hunt their food is that the human race dramatically exploits the animal population to do so. Animals in the wild make do with what is already there. To claim there are any similarities between animals hunting each other in the wild and humans eating meat is simply ignorant.

I agree with you here. That said, it is exactly our farming practices (including the domestication and harvesting of animals) that has allowed us to reach the level of progress and diversification that we presently enjoy. Without this we would simply be a somewhat unique animal in that we can fashion and use tools, however, all of our other advances would be non-existant as no scavenger (which is what we were prior to farming) has the free time necessary to either advance or store knowledge thus they do not have the free time to progress their species.

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Originally posted by Stingray You love it.

He loves it so much he even puts it on his spaghetti

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Originally posted by English Rachel Now do NOT get me started on fur.

Bugger off.

Here is my reasoning why all out vegetarianism because of poor conditions for animals is a very inconsistent ideal: Rach, you say it's because these animals suffer while in the pens. Fine. But so does a huge chunk of African (and other thirld-world countries) population. Now from my point of view, if I don't care about Africans dying in Africa because of poor living conditions enough to send them all my disposable income, then it certainly seems silly and even hypocritical to care about some cow and its poor living conditions. Is a cow more important than an African? And why doesn't anyone criticise me for going to Guv and blowing close to $100 in one night when that money could have just as easily been better allocated by sending it to some poor shmuck in Africa?

Not to mention that we're made to eat meat. If we didn't, we would have never made it out of caveman-ages. Yes, I can not eat meat for a while. I can hop on one foot for a while too. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for everybody to replace walking with hopping on one foot.

I'm not anti-vegetarian. You guys can eat whatever you want for whatever reasons you dream up. I'm anti-vegetarians-telling-me-to-be-vegetarian. The shoe that fits you doesn't fit everybody.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would argue that it is also not reasonable for persons starving due to lack of resources to remain complacent in their strife nor is it reasonable to expect others to come to your aid. I would also argue that allowing the starving populations to "eliminate themselves" is more compassionate then applying band-aid solutions as we are doing today.

Remind me never to vote for you if you're running for office one day.

Your moniker is remarkably suitable.

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Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* He loves it so much he even puts it on his spaghetti

THAT WAS A MISTAKE OKAY

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Originally posted by Skipper Remind me never to vote for you if you're running for office one day. Your moniker is remarkably suitable.

Yes I suppose it is much better that we allow hundreds of thousands of people to suffer not just today but forever rather then us feeling guilty for their demise. The problem here is that people pity these persons. Because we pity them we want to make alieviate their suffering. Unfortunately we are not willing to make the sacrafices necessary to actually solve their problems so instead we make token gestures that while serving to lessen the severity of their suffering also serves to prolong their suffering. We do this under the misguided believe that all life is good and is worth living, well, I for one would rather be dead then live with the agonizing pain of constant hunger and the torment of endless cycles of disease.

just take it from the video from simpsons....if a cow got the chance to eat you.....Ralph wanted to graduate from bouvine university

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Bugger off. Here is my reasoning why all out vegetarianism because of poor conditions for animals is a very inconsistent ideal: Rach, you say it's because these animals suffer while in the pens. Fine. But so does a huge chunk of African (and other thirld-world countries) population. Now from my point of view, if I don't care about Africans dying in Africa because of poor living conditions enough to send them all my disposable income, then it certainly seems silly and even hypocritical to care about some cow and its poor living conditions. Is a cow more important than an African? And why doesn't anyone criticise me for going to Guv and blowing close to $100 in one night when that money could have just as easily been better allocated by sending it to some poor shmuck in Africa? Not to mention that we're made to eat meat. If we didn't, we would have never made it out of caveman-ages. Yes, I can not eat meat for a while. I can hop on one foot for a while too. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for everybody to replace walking with hopping on one foot. I'm not anti-vegetarian. You guys can eat whatever you want for whatever reasons you dream up. I'm anti-vegetarians-telling-me-to-be-vegetarian. The shoe that fits you doesn't fit everybody.

And if you notice, my darling, I have never nor would never tell anyone to be veggie. It is my personal religion that I believe in. If you read my posts earlier, you would see that I MADE my parents buy free range meat which means that I didn't try and turn them veggie. Nor did I turn any of my boyfs veggie! I have even been know to cook a bacon butty on a Sat morning! Just because it is my belief doesn't mean I expect others to follow it BUT NEITHER DO I EXPECT PEOPLE TO GIVE ME SHIT FOR SOMETHING THAT IS DEAR TO ME!!!!

I do send money to Africa too. Let me remind you also that the world gets changed one step at a time and if we all thought that we couldn't make a difference, nothing good would be done.... ever!!! Stop being defeatest or making excuses :P

As for being 'made to eat meat', I can guarantee you that we are 'made' to eat a small portion of meat a couple of times a week (which is how often we would have caught it back in the day). I am very healthy, lacking in iron slightly but I try and rectify that without consuming blood but other than that, a good veggie diet is exceptionally good for you - rub my skin and hair next time you see me

And fur farming is more than terrible, more shocking and disgusting than your wildest imagination can allow. I promise you.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Yes I suppose it is much better that we allow hundreds of thousands of people to suffer not just today but forever rather then us feeling guilty for their demise. The problem here is that people pity these persons. Because we pity them we want to make alieviate their suffering. Unfortunately we are not willing to make the sacrafices necessary to actually solve their problems so instead we make token gestures that while serving to lessen the severity of their suffering also serves to prolong their suffering. We do this under the misguided believe that all life is good and is worth living, well, I for one would rather be dead then live with the agonizing pain of constant hunger and the torment of endless cycles of disease.

I am right in the middle of you two on this topic, hence my abstination.

Rachel, i respect your position on this but i have to admit that nothing beats a good bbqd steak!



I dont mind vegetarians because if thats what they believe than good for them. I think wed all be healthier if we eat less meat. However i know this one vegetarian who is ridiculously preachy. Everytime anyone eats meat she goes on and on about it. Shes not invited out for many meals thats for sure! LOL

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Yes I suppose it is much better that we allow hundreds of thousands of people to suffer not just today but forever rather then us feeling guilty for their demise. The problem here is that people pity these persons. Because we pity them we want to make alieviate their suffering. Unfortunately we are not willing to make the sacrafices necessary to actually solve their problems so instead we make token gestures that while serving to lessen the severity of their suffering also serves to prolong their suffering. We do this under the misguided believe that all life is good and is worth living, well, I for one would rather be dead then live with the agonizing pain of constant hunger and the torment of endless cycles of disease.

because we pity them and feel something should be done, this puts pressure on governments and the larger and more influential organizations of the world to help these people - and they do.

Pity, sorrow, outrage at the injustices of the world are not entirely useless.

i eat everything but i would like to be more vegie than i am to keep healthy.

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