how do you get the pro sound? - TranceAddict Forums

TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- how do you get the pro sound?
Pages (5): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »

Posted by RickyM on Dec-07-2006 14:38:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
Feel free to ignore me but I guarantee you will just buy 1000s of pounds worth of gear and have nothing to show for it if you don't know what you are doing. Feel free to fool yourself about that fact forever too. Its your loss.

Are you directing this at me, or at the forum in general?

Posted by Derivative on Dec-07-2006 18:04:

Eh, at anyone who thinks going out and spending 30 grand on analogue and outboard gear is a step towards getting a 'professional' sound.

This, my friend is called 'wishful thinking.'

Posted by Fatboy on Dec-07-2006 20:52:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
Eh, at anyone who thinks going out and spending 30 grand on analogue and outboard gear is a step towards getting a 'professional' sound.

This, my friend is called 'wishful thinking.'

Couldn't agree more. At the end of the day it all comes down to good engineering and being able to hear what the track needs. I have been recording and mixing a lot of non electronic music over the last couple of years. I would say that having a range of good preamps is a lot more critical in those genres than in trance, but even there it's possible to do great mixes with limited gear.

Working with other engineers, I've seen some ridiculous things being done at the mixing stage and done some weird stuff myself, but sometimes it works to think outside the box. The last time someone had me scratching my head was when a friend of mine rerecorded the guitar tracks with a microphone in front of the speakers, compressed the shit out of them, ran them through some reverb, applied some drastic low cut and gently added them with the original guitars! Thing is, that it really worked and added some sparkle that definitely was missing.

To be able to hear what's missing or what is unnecessary and then know what to do about it only comes with experience. For every mix I do, I'm able to work that little bit faster and make things sound a lot better. It's funny listening to mixes done just six months ago that have elements that just make me cringe In these convolution crazy days, approximating that analog sound with convolutions of channel strips and gear is very possible and with Altiverb or another convolution reverb you have access to loads of high end reverb units and real rooms.

Finally, while mastering can definitely help a mix get that final polish it is by no means a mix saviour. The last rock track I did was mastered by a guy in London that has mastered Kylie Minogue, The Killers, Squarepusher and other big names, so I can only assume that he knows his shit. While the track definitely improved sound wise, the difference is quite subtle. At that stage it's all about balancing frequencies and sort out overall dynamics to get it as loud as other commercial releases. If the kick sounds shit there's very often not much if anything at all you can do about it in mastering. Oh well, sorry for rambling, just thought I'd share my view on the matter.

Posted by thecYrus on Dec-07-2006 23:44:

the 5 years was just a hint that you won't get a pro sound in a few weeks/months/years..

but the pro sound really lies in the mixing. (especially volume balancing and eqing) you can get a very decent sound even with poor sounding synths. it's just about the right mix to get it tight!

Posted by newtrancer on Dec-08-2006 01:35:

im sure youd get the pro sound by buying pro gear

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Dec-08-2006 02:00:

You can also run like an Olympic sprinter if you wear the right shoes, and become a brilliant physicist solely by having access to the best lab equipment.

Right?

Posted by oboema on Dec-08-2006 03:04:

quote:
Originally posted by thecYrus
the 5 years was just a hint that you won't get a pro sound in a few weeks/months/years..

but the pro sound really lies in the mixing. (especially volume balancing and eqing) you can get a very decent sound even with poor sounding synths. it's just about the right mix to get it tight!

This is pretty much the right answer,mixing itselve is a difficult thing to master and loads of people are having trouble with this,however the more experience you gain when it comes to balancing volume,eq,compression,sounddesign etc.(and all this will come in time if you're persistent enough) the better your mixes will become and the more "pro" you will sound.I suggest you get a pair of decent monitor speakers (if you don't have them allready) and in time you will learn how to sound more "pro".

Posted by newtrancer on Dec-08-2006 03:09:

the pro gear obviously with some knowledge of what you are doing but assuming you know what you are doing,pro gear will help.

just go into any studio or ask any artist who has had success and ask them what gear they use. you may not sound like them but at least it will be close.

Posted by Getafix on Dec-08-2006 03:14:

Yup good monitors are especially important to improve your mixing skills..My production & mixes improved a lot once i moved on from KRK Rokits to Dynaudio BM6A's..

As for how to get the pro sound well that comes with time but some good practices are:

Making sure you high pass all the sounds in your projects..You won't have good bass until you get rid of all the bass in your other sounds & similarly your synths won't sound sharp & clear if there's too much low end in them..

Group together and compress/eq your percussion, hats, synths etc..This often helps everything sit together much better..

Posted by RickyM on Dec-08-2006 09:56:

quote:
Originally posted by s-cube
Making sure you high pass all the sounds in your projects..You won't have good bass until you get rid of all the bass in your other sounds & similarly your synths won't sound sharp & clear if there's too much low end in them..

Yeah but you need to be careful when cutting the low end out of everything except the bass, it can lead to a thin sounding track.

Posted by Derivative on Dec-08-2006 14:16:

Phase. Phase. Phase.

Everyone always forgets about phase.

Its one of the 3 dimensions you will be working with in your project - amplitude, frequency, phase offset.

You can have 2 instruments with harmonics peaking in exactly the same frequency ranges but if they have different periods, you will not get a large spike in amplitude. The extent of this depends on how large the phase difference is.

It is not to be confused with panning which is completely separate. You don't need to hipass anything unless you want several sounds sharing the same frequency ranges in zero phase.

Over the weekend I will write a tutorial on this because you never hear about it on this forum and it is an incredibly important part of making space for instruments in a mix. All you need is a stereo channel delay plugin like Voxengo Audio Delay (which is free so theres no excuse).

I've already got an ImpOSCar tutorial done. Just need to add pictures, render all the tutorial sounds and upload the fxps. I'll post that up on Monday after the office bash tonight and the obligatory weekend to sober up.

I hope to fuck it gets stickied in font size 40 neon text so these types of threads will just disappear but who the hell am I kidding...

Posted by Zild on Dec-08-2006 15:50:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
Phase. Phase. Phase.

Everyone always forgets about phase.

Its one of the 3 dimensions you will be working with in your project - amplitude, frequency, phase offset.

You can have 2 instruments with harmonics peaking in exactly the same frequency ranges but if they have different periods, you will not get a large spike in amplitude. The extent of this depends on how large the phase difference is.

It is not to be confused with panning which is completely separate. You don't need to hipass anything unless you want several sounds sharing the same frequency ranges in zero phase.

Over the weekend I will write a tutorial on this because you never hear about it on this forum and it is an incredibly important part of making space for instruments in a mix. All you need is a stereo channel delay plugin like Voxengo Audio Delay (which is free so theres no excuse).

I've already got an ImpOSCar tutorial done. Just need to add pictures, render all the tutorial sounds and upload the fxps. I'll post that up on Monday after the office bash tonight and the obligatory weekend to sober up.

I hope to fuck it gets stickied in font size 40 neon text so these types of threads will just disappear but who the hell am I kidding...

Sweetness i'll be waiting.

Posted by kitphillips on Dec-09-2006 04:12:

Phase sounds interesting, its not something I've considered with synths before, but I suppose it applies as much to them as to acoustic sources like guitars and vocals... Looking foward to it

Posted by TaylorR on Dec-09-2006 08:19:

Posted by Sean Walsh on Dec-10-2006 06:33:

quote:
To be honest I dont even use the virus ti. The presets sound like ass and its hard as hell to make good sounds. Just to make a good sound you have to go through all that routing and crap . The waveforms sound so raw that doesnt help at all either, hence why I dont use it and have sold it.

Probably the funniest thing I've read on these forums for a long time.

Posted by FrancoR on Dec-10-2006 20:16:

Posted by blacknoizybox on Dec-11-2006 10:21:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative
This thread is an abomination along the lines of the magic preset that makes the shit tune great. It doesn't work like that.

Perhaps you should consider using your �1400 Virus TI? More specifically, not dismissing it for being a shit preset factory (which it is) and start programming your own sounds (which it is good at).

It really beggers belief that anyone could have the gear that you have and yet have so few ideas about how to use it. If you are relying on presets, stop it and start programming. You will suck at first but you get better and you will eventually get good at it and have control over every aspect of the sound that comes from it.

If you think that 10s of thousands of bucks worth of analogue gear and outboard will suddenly make your average tunes sound great, you need to wake up and stop fooling yourself that gear makes great music.

You use your gear to make music and plenty of people, like Whitetown have proven you can make great music on free software and a 30 dollar microphone (no.1 album in the UK charts no less).

You need to stop fooling yourself that theres some magical process or preset that will suddenly make you a 'pro' and start taking the iniative and do the learning yourself.

Do not get it into your head that you can just send an average mix off to a mastering studio and then boom! like magic, a pro tune gets sent back to you. Again, it doesn't work like that and mastering never made a mediocre tune particularly good.

Finally, you need to stop obsessing over your tracks in comparison to Armins because quite frankly you will never be as good as Armin at being Armin. Armin is the best at being Armin. Krispy Kreme is the best at being Krispy Kreme.

You can sort of mimic his tunes for learning purposes but unless you have the exact gear that he has and the knowledge of how to use it that he has, and the people that he knows who can touch it up for you - you will never sound the same.

Hate to be so negative but fuck...I'm amazed people still post topics like this in this forum.

you said it all

Posted by Derivative on Dec-11-2006 10:42:

I've done the impOSCar tutorial but forgot to put it on my memory stick yesterday so its not going up until tommorow lunch time.

Its a walkthrough on how to build 2 sounds - a lead similar to Binary Finary - 1998. And a fucking Supersaw emu. And yes you can do it with only 2 oscillators, without unison. I may or may not upload the fxps. It depends if someone begs for the 'filez.'

If you beg, you can stick it up your arse and work off the screenshots. Lazy bastards.

As for the phase thing - If you have ever used a mastering plugin like Ozone, you have probably already messed about with phase and not realised it. Ozone has a tool in it that functions like a 4 band EQ but allows you to change the stereo separation in each band. If you just run through the presets you will notice many of the patches that utilize this feature because of the way it tends to make the top end of your tracks seem to stand out more. On the presets, its use is indescriminate though.

If you increase phase offset enough you get this weird effect where the sound appears from the extreme left and right channels but theres nothing coming out of the centre channels. On its own it will mess with your head but you can fill that space with traditionally centred instruments like bass drums and basses.

You should get Voxengo Audiodelay because its great for changing stereo width and its free.

Posted by S-Tune on Dec-11-2006 10:46:

One question:
Isn�t it "dangerous" to mess up with phase when it comes to vinyl mastering or playing the song in a club in mono?

cheers,
S-Tune

Posted by Pjotr G on Dec-11-2006 10:52:

true. My advice is create something truely stereo yourself, and steer clear of stereo "widening" effects.

I don't mean pan your hihat left and your ride right, instead, make 2 slightly different hihats, one for left, one for right. And don't trick around it by setting one sample out of phase.

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Dec-11-2006 11:15:

Posted by Derivative on Dec-11-2006 11:27:

quote:
Originally posted by S-Tune
One question:
Isn�t it "dangerous" to mess up with phase when it comes to vinyl mastering or playing the song in a club in mono?

cheers,
S-Tune

Yes and no.

When mixed down to vinyl, all predominately bass instruments will be centred and mono. Because if you look at the surface of the vinyl you can see that low frequency sound is represented by a long slow oscillating swiggly line. Its slow enough that you can see the oscillations.

When you increase the stereo separation of any instrument you will cause destructive phasing to occur where parts of one channel in a stereo sound dip periodically into anti phase with the other. When summed to mono - you will get silence. On bass, where the lines are long and drawn out you can cause the needle to skip into the next groove.

But sending a track to vinyl requires a pretty rigourous mastering stage where they sort stuff like this out so it does not happen.

Ptjor G is right in the sense that if you want a stereo sound, you should record it that way to begin with - with 2 mic sources, either in a spaced or coincident pair. It depends on what kind of sound you want - Coincident pairs are for when you don't want the sound in the middle of 2 spaced mics to disappear (same destructive phasing). So you arrange them in the same spot, facing away from each other to avoid this. But spaced pairs can be useful too (for instance you could have a spaced pair on the overheads of a drumkit and mix more of that in after its gone digital so you pick up more of the natural reverberation of the room).

But if you are working totally digitally (as alot of people do these days), you have to artificially recreate these kinds properties of stereo recorded sounds. You do this with stereo separation, reverb, delay and so forth. All of these are attempts to simulate aspects of sound playing in a 3 dimensional space.

Most of the samples you will work with will either be synthesized or they will be close mic recorded. Nearly everything I work with at the moment is synthesized - whether by myself or by someone else who then rendered it and cut it into samples. And they sound it because theres no sense of space to a mix if all you do is drop down a couple of these samples from your library.

Changing phase offset can result in destructive phasing to occur and the extent of it depends on the other instruments in the track and the length of the offset. But really, its no worse than going too far with the other 2 dimensions of a digital mix - you can hype up the amplitude of bass instruments so much that it drowns out your kick drum and the fundamentals of your lead. That sounds pretty terrible too.

Posted by Pjotr G on Dec-11-2006 14:11:

quote:
Originally posted by Derivative

But sending a track to vinyl requires a pretty rigourous mastering stage where they sort stuff like this out so it does not happen.

It's not good practice to try to let a mastering engineer fix your crap in the final stage. Get it right at the beginning and it can be much more in the end.

Furthermore, you are not limited to doing what I suggested to only a live- (mic)-recording situation. Double your instruments, tweak them differently, whatever. It's more lively than a stereo widener, and will not sound like total crap when you hit the mono button.

Posted by Derivative on Dec-11-2006 17:12:

What you are saying is exactly what a stereo widener does - that is, double up a stereo sound and adds a time delay to one of them. Or you can do this on a single stereo pair using a channel delay like Voxengo AudioDelay.

I never said it was good practice to let an engineer fix your mistakes. However, Vinyl mastering differs from CD mastering in the sense that the engineer will be conscious of phasey bass, precisely because it can skip needles.

Recording from a mic in a stereo pair is completely different from using channel delays to simulate stereo recording.

And channel delays do exactly the same thing as stereo wideners - they increase stereo width. A stereo widener is a channel delay, only with a few bells and whistles on - and most likely a clumsy gui.

If you have found some way in which this process does not cause destructive phasing where a stereo widener does then please - enlighten me because it totally goes against the physics of sound.

Posted by Pjotr G on Dec-11-2006 17:43:

I am NOT suggesting channel delays.

I am suggesting making left and right slightly different. And by different I don't mean the same, but set apart 20 ms. For instance use different effects on them, e.g. different set reverbs, different set echo's, go wild. Or different base sounds alltogether.

Pages (5): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »