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I did a 15 page research essay on this very topic, using peer reviewed journals, not some bullshit off Google.

The conclusion was that combination therapy works best. There is evidence that supports drug treatment AND therapy treatment, but none to show that one is better than the other.

You have to be a student at my school to view the articles, but I'll see what I can do about copy+pasting them.


And I'm sorry, but the DSM isn't bullshit. One can make criticisms of ANY book if they want, give me a break. LOL.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN *cough* bullshit *cough* do you just get your jollies by flying in the face of scientific opinion?

If I did, I'd have to look elsewhere. I don't call this science.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i expect them to be able to present such information as given them as medical researchers. ie a patient's history would be confirmed to ensure they fit the criteria for the exercise. ive already stated its difficult to differentiate between different forms of depression, but that doesn't mean that the differences dont exist.

in a world where the current trend is towards giving everyone antidepressants with almost no regard for the source of the depression, and with nearly no differentiation between depression 'types' anywhere either of us looked, you expect this under-funded research group to provide something that even the well funded research groups don't provide, all the while noting the difficulty in doing such differentiation?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its really not that easy, and i certainly did try (but i did have to rush off for an afternoon snooze). most stuff you will find are government websites & support groups that synthesise such information, rather than providing lengthy discussion on the particular sciences behind it. i believed the onus to be on you as you were the one advocating the power of meditation in "curing" depression, whereas the use of anti-depressants and mood stabilisers has a long history of successes that i accept at face value. im not sure exactly what youre after. are you denying the history and success of medication to treat mental disorders and do you wish me to go find you that evidence? as treatment in the form of medication is so widespread, its kind of accepted science that medication can and does provide an answer for hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. now, if youre asking me to differentiate between the complex causes and perpetuating symptoms of depression, then thats far more difficult. i'll admit that again, i accept the medical community's opinions at face value, as im not a doctor. so when my doctor, or a site run by doctors, such as psychiatry souce tells me there are different forms of depression brought on by different (though sometimes concurrent) means, then i'll take their word for it. ill also take their word for it that SSRIs work by targeting a particular part of the brain that isn't functioning as well as it should.

the onus was on me - i already fulfilled it with a selection of peer reviewed research articles, and a source to many more.
however the onus regarding depression 'types' still remains on you, even moreso because of controversies you've raised in your 'evidence'-post in the begining of this page (@30ppp) when you declared the effects of ecstasy's comedown on the brain, in other words you have shown that all the depression 'types' you've acknowledged and exhibited share the same effect on the brain.
what you are supposed to demonstrate 1. is the existence of a 'biological' source to these effects, and 2. a research supporting the efficacy of SSRI drugs on patients who are depressed due to a 'biological source', while differentiating them from otherwise depressed patients, and most preferably being treated in a way that would actually cure them, rather than focus on weakening the symptoms they experience.

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Originally posted by jennypie I did a 15 page research essay on this very topic, using peer reviewed journals, not some bullshit off Google.

good for you!
all the 'evidence' i've cited was published on peer reviewed journals.

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Originally posted by jennypie And I'm sorry, but the DSM isn't bullshit. One can make criticisms of ANY book if they want, give me a break. LOL.

and i'm sorry, but my posts aren't bullshit. one can make criticisms of ANY post if they want, give me a break. LOL.

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Originally posted by Psy-T good for you! all the 'evidence' i've cited was published on peer reviewed journals. and i'm sorry, but my posts aren't bullshit. one can make criticisms of ANY post if they want, give me a break. LOL.

Whatever.

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Originally posted by jennypie Whatever.

brilliant argument!

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Originally posted by Psy-T brilliant argument!

I don't have an ego as lare as yours to feed, therefore, no need to argue about something I know perfectly well the answer to.

Vote J.pie

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Originally posted by jennypie I don't have an ego as lare as yours to feed, therefore, no need to argue about something I know perfectly well the answer to.

yeah, keep telling yourself that, just don't forget to get the last word while you're at it.

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Originally posted by Arbiter If I did, I'd have to look elsewhere. I don't call this science.

lol, im certainly not talking about anyone in this thread, just the general accepted effectiveness of medication treating depression.

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Originally posted by psy-t however the onus regarding depression 'types' still remains on you, even moreso because of controversies you've raised in your 'evidence'-post in the begining of this page (@30ppp) when you declared the effects of ecstasy's comedown on the brain, in other words you have shown that all the depression 'types' you've acknowledged and exhibited share the same effect on the brain. what you are supposed to demonstrate 1. is the existence of a 'biological' source to these effects, and 2. a research supporting the efficacy of SSRI drugs on patients who are depressed due to a 'biological source', while differentiating them from otherwise depressed patients, and most preferably being treated in a way that would actually cure them, rather than focus on weakening the symptoms they experience.

roger that. ill see what i can do. give me some time my friend

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Originally posted by DjConfessions If you are feeling depressed, take their meds, watch Jackass 2 Unrated, go out, meet some people and if you are still feeling like shit, kill yourself. You lost a Connect-4 Game with God in purgatory you are doomed to a life of cockshit. Your seratonin sucks dick and DJ Tiesto will not save your life

I'm not laughing at your situation, having psychological trouble is serious business. But somewhere inside that fucked up mind there's a good sense of humour, try using it to cheer yourself up. Always try to find positive things to laugh at in negative situations, even if it means laughing to yourself. Listen to stupid music which doesn't take itself too seriously. Watch retarded comedy clips on youtube. All this fucking works as a decent anti-depressant.

Psychology is a refined form of ancient studies. I studied this ridiculous science, and i think that out of all the things they teach you in college, 5% you'll use in day to day life. i've further expanded my interest in astrology, and by far, this ancient science has more consistency than APA psych manual.

I know some of you say that the daily horoscope is bollocks, but grab urself a book on astrology and read it bit by bit and everyday you'll find something that relates to astrology.

I dunno.

Meds help me a shitload. Before being on them I dragged around and couldn't really get out of bed orrrr I was insanely energetic and made reallly stupid decisions.. ya I have Bipolar II.

My psychiatrist put me on Lamictal and recently Seroquel and I've done a complete 180. I think accurate diagnoses are essential for the practice.

And yeah, psychiatrists are pushers.. it's their job to help your condition with medicine management. If you don't wanna take them but still seek help.. a psychologist is what you're after.

So, I'm a testament to meds actually helping. I can actually function normally now, but like I said.. an accurate diagnosis is REALLY essential.

Re: Re: Re: Psychiatrists are pushers

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy ...most of the time theyll just prescribe anti's just in case

Theres sometimes a very good reason for this - can anybody say "doctor shopping"?
The vast majority of people are simply not happy if they leave a doctor without a prescription in their hand and they wont come back again - and its sometimes better to keep a patient happy so they come back to see you again, giving you a chance to keep tabs on them and continue to monitor their health.

Having said that it is bad practice to let yourself be bullied by patients on a regular basis.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy psychiatrists are bs. biochemical and med companies are manufacturers and doctors are their pushers. its big money. the truth is 90% of the time cases can be solved by understanding how ur mind works. but because doc's get huge incentives from these drug companies and theyre always so overbooked and the more ppl they see the more $$ they get, theyd rather just prescribe u the shit, push you out the door, collect their pay and drive home in their mercedes.

Its a well known to all psychiatrists that drugs don't fix anybodies mental health problems, the only way to actually fix anyone is through various forms of psychotherapy, but:
a) good luck getting someone to come back to you for a second appointment if you haven't given them drugs,
b) the combination of drugs and psychotherapy works better than either alone (particularly with regards to depression), and
c) if your just an emo, then fine, but if you actually have real and serious mental illness, its really difficult to participate in the sort of therapies required (which require a great deal of committment and effort), and frankly, most people who are seriously depressed can't do it without the help of medications.

And the incentives doctors get from drug companies aren't as great as you make it out to be... yay! a free pen! and a note-pad too, when will christmas end?? The best that most companies offer is the occasional finger-food lunch, as it is kind of unethical for doctors to accept anything of value, most wont accept such gifts, so the companies rarely waste their time offering them.

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Originally posted by tranceDJ And probably the most fucked up thing about anti-depressents...THEY PUT LABELS ON THEM SAYING "YOU MAY FEEL SUICIDAL."

This is because they actually work (not every drug works for every person, but as a general rule, they do work)... alas, nothing is perfect. Anti-depressants do a number of things to you, in this case the important ones are a) improved mood and b) imcreased energy/motivation.
The trouble is they don't do both at the same rate, they tend to increase energy and motivation quickly, but take at least 4-6 weeks to have any effect on mood. When people are really depressed they tend to have little drive or energy, so although you feel like shit, you can't be fucked doing anything about it. Then you start getting treated, and for a short period of time you have energy again (yay!) but you still feel like shit, so your more likely to attempt suicide.

It doesnt mean they are bad, or they dont work. Everything has side effects, you just need to be aware of them.

Re: Re: Psychiatrists are pushers

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Originally posted by Arbiter Yes, and it is more in their interest to get you addicted than to actually make you better. Funny how that correlates with that the drugs they push actually do.

Psychiatrists aren't exactly short of work, they don't need to get people addicted to have a good income. Believe it or not, most doctors aren't evil people, they generally do want to help you.

all doctors do that, not just shrinks. i have very little respect for doctors these days. they're merely puppets for the pharmaceutical industry. it's sad.

i pushed a psychiatrist once, cuz the bitch was pushin me

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Originally posted by Slylee all doctors do that, not just shrinks. i have very little respect for doctors these days. they're merely puppets for the pharmaceutical industry. it's sad.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono

i'll take your one "rolleyes" and raise you one!

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Originally posted by Slylee all doctors do that, not just shrinks. i have very little respect for doctors these days. they're merely puppets for the pharmaceutical industry. it's sad.

lol

For adults with mild to moderate depression, there is no direct evidence that drug or nondrug therapy is superior. Prescription antidepressants are effective at all levels of severity, but systematic reviews have shown no differences in outcomes between any classes of antidepressants.4 Different types of psychotherapy (including cognitive therapy and interpersonal psychotherapy) are also effective for managing mild to moderate depression.1 However, consistent evidence is lacking to make a statement about the relative effectiveness of different types of psychotherapies compared with each other or with drug treatment. One RCT5 comparing nefazodone (Serzone, removed from the U.S. market in May 2004 because of hepatotoxicity) with cognitive behavioral therapy over a 12-week period demonstrated similar effectiveness for each treatment alone. Another RCT6 of 240 outpatients with moderate to severe depression compared the effectiveness of paroxetine (Paxil) and other medications with cognitive behavioral therapy. Both treatment types were found to be effective, but the degree of effectiveness for cognitive behavioral therapy was dependent on therapist experience, and the overall number of patients in the therapy group was small (n = 60).6

An evidence report4 from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality states that data are too limited to determine if newer antidepressants are more or less effective than psychosocial therapies. Options for pharmacologic and psychotherapeutic treatment of resistant depression (i.e., depression that has not remitted after a first-line drug therapy) are the subject of the Sequenced Treatment Alternatives to Relieve Depression (STAR*D) trial,2 with results expected in 2006.

Recommendations from Others

The Institute for Clinical Systems Improvement states in an evidence-based guideline that mild to moderate depression can be treated with psychotherapy instead of, or in addition to, pharmacotherapy.7 The guideline also states that cognitive behavioral therapy, interpersonal therapy, and antidepressant medications are equally effective in treating mild to moderate levels of major depression.7 The Veterans Health Administration clinical practice guideline states that psychotherapy generally is an appropriate treatment for all forms of depression managed in the primary care setting, and that because there are no demonstrated differences in treatment outcomes between pharmacotherapy and psychotherapy, patient choice should be strongly considered in treatment planning.8

Clinical Commentary

The appropriate treatment of depression is of special interest to primary care physicians, who treat the majority of this illness. Although it is reassuring that both antidepressant medication and psychological treatments are effective for patients with mild to moderate disease, physicians are left with the practical consideration of choosing which therapy to use, knowing that neither has yet been shown to be superior. Individualizing the treatment decision requires consideration of local psychotherapy resources, relative expense of treatments, insurance coverage, and response to past therapies. Both patient and physician preferences are appropriate factors to consider when planning treatment for depression.



Source: American Family Physician. Kansas City: Dec 1, 2005. Vol. 72, Iss. 11; pg. 2309, 2 pgs

DSM-IV-TR CRITERIA
Major Depressive Episode

A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same
2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of
the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.
NOTE: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical
condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.
1. Depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either
subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others
(e.g., appears tearful). NOTE: In children and adolescents, can be irritable
mood.
2. Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities
most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective
account or observation made by others).
3. Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of
more than 5% of body weight in month), or decrease or increase in
appetite nearly every day. NOTE: In children, consider failure to make
expected weight gains.
4. Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day.
5. Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by
others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed
down).
6. Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day.
7. Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may
be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about
being sick).
8. Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every
day (either by subjective account or as observed by others).
9. Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal
ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for
committing suicide.
B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a mixed episode.
C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social,
occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiologic effects of a substance (e.g., a
drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).
E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by bereavement (i.e., after the loss of a
loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by
marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal
ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation).

From American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 2000.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers lol

hahaha "they"


i'm all for natural remedies to be honest. i know i've done my fair share of partying with the illegal shit, so it seems hypocritical, but when it comes to prescriptions, i'd much rather not take them. i hate going to the doctor when i'm sick...i'd rather just let it run its course, rather than rush to the doctor to get antibiotics, which only make you get better 24 hours quicker than without them anyway...

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