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-- Do you support racial profiling of Arabs/Muslims?
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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Not that I agree with you at all, but they way they go about it certainly isn't civil to say the least. If they're going to do it, they should atleast go about it in a dignified manner, which clearly isn't the case. By that logic, every black and hispanic guy should be hastled by the cops (which unfortunately happens pretty often). I also fail to see how there are "limited resources." Last time I checked, the bill of rights of kind of relevant to the Federal Branch too. I don't see how searches are warranted just because you have a certain ethnic make up or religious orientation. How is being Arab or Muslim probable cause? 19 out of 1.2 billion isn't exactly a high probability.

What I mean by "limited resources" is that there are 300 million in this country and all could theoretically be possible "terrorists." In comparison, you have very few law enforcement officials to constantly monitor all 300 million people (which is a good thing). So, you have to allocate those officers to the most probable locations/people.

Again, I think racial profiling is horrible, however I don't see what alternatives there are besides increasing overall policing by a huge amount, or creating some sort of quota system so that no group is profiled.

Also, I just posted this in the CORe, but I don't think it's the actual 9/11 plane hijackers that are the cause of continued profiling. I think it's the constant threats from middle eastern groups proclaiming the war against the US is ongoing and promising continued terrorist attacks. If there weren't thousands of people in the middle east proclaiming "death to America," you would have no rationale for profiling here in the US.

--Also, I didn't vote. I'm not sure how clearly I've stated it, but I'm very torn with this issue. At heart and in principle I think it's wrong, however I don't know what alternatives we have.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z How is being Arab or Muslim probable cause? 19 out of 1.2 billion isn't exactly a high probability.

Kind of a misleading statistic. Take the muslim/arab terrorists and put that over total terrorists. It would probably show the majority being muslim/arab. Let's hypothetically say it was a very high number, like 95%. If you could only search a limited number of people at an airport, it would be logical to target muslims/arabs.

Still, I think it's a bunch of B.S.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono What I mean by "limited resources" is that there are 300 million in this country and all could theoretically be possible "terrorists." In comparison, you have very few law enforcement officials to constantly monitor all 300 million people (which is a good thing). So, you have to allocate those officers to the most probable locations/people. Again, I think racial profiling is horrible, however I don't see what alternatives there are besides increasing overall policing by a huge amount, or creating some sort of quota system so that no group is profiled.

Wow . You realize how much that sounds like proposing an Orwellian police state to deal with the 'problem', or atleast a very slippery slope?

I think I liked Groundhogboy's opinion on this which was along the lines of "I'd rather be blown up in terrorist attack than sacrifice liberty for real or percieved security."

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Also, I just posted this in the CORe, but I don't think it's the actual 9/11 plane hijackers that are the cause of continued profiling. I think it's the constant threats from middle eastern groups proclaiming the war against the US is ongoing and promising continued terrorist attacks. If there weren't thousands of people in the middle east proclaiming "death to America," you would have no rationale for profiling here in the US. --Also, I didn't vote. I'm not sure how clearly I've stated it, but I'm very torn with this issue. At heart and in principle I think it's wrong, however I don't know what alternatives we have.

Well, what could be the cause for that? Decades of state sponsored terrorism and puppet regimes in the Middle East doesn't sound like an unreasonable explanation. I fail to see how eigther is ethicaly, morally, or legally defensible.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Wow . You realize how much that sounds like proposing an Orwellian police state to deal with the 'problem', or atleast a very slippery slope? I think I liked Groundhogboy's opinion on this which was along the lines of "I'd rather be blown up in terrorist attack than sacrifice liberty for real or percieved security."

No, I agree that increasing policing is not the way I would go. However, I wouldn't just throw my arms up in the air and say "oh well, I'll just let someone blow me up in the name of freedom." Freedom doesn't mean much when you're dead.

quote:

Well, what could be the cause for that? Decades of state sponsored terrorism and puppet regimes in the Middle East doesn't sound like an unreasonable explanation. I fail to see how eigther is ethicaly, morally, or legally defensible.

I think the cause is complex, but stateside the only issue is protecting civilians. How to stop the rage against the US is a complex issue and how that situation is resolved will be very difficult to find. That said, the government has the responsibility to deal with that situation as well as keeping its citizens safe.

Fear is a wonderful thing for keeping people in check, simply on a statistical sense its blown, way, way out of proportion.
In 2001, terrorists killed 2996 people in one fell swoop in a very big, flashy and photogenic way.
In slightly less exciting news in the USA in 2001 a total of 51,326 where as a result of violence-related, homicides, law enforcement and suicides. Which are more or less window dressing on the news unless its particually gruesome and certainly even then arent going to turn into a 6year saga of 'war'.

So in a particually bad year, 2001 there was if youre a statistic amongst those dead people around a 1 in 18, 1 in 17 chance of being the one killed by a madman in an aeroplane... as opposed to being killed by your run of the mill local madman next door, a cop, yourself, being beaten up in a pub car park somewhere by rednecks or your drug dealer.
Basically vehicles are pretty good compared to aeroplanes, youre a 11.7 in 100,000 chance of being smeared by something with wheels and a 1.0 in 100,000 chance of being killed by Angry Kebabs express flight to hell.

sourced it from the CDC website.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono No, I agree that increasing policing is not the way I would go. However, I wouldn't just throw my arms up in the air and say "oh well, I'll just let someone blow me up in the name of freedom." Freedom doesn't mean much when you're dead.

Living in fear and/or sacrificing liberties and freedoms, that which makes America what it is, for real or percieved security doesn't sound like a wise decision eigther. Any temporary measures that are implemented must not undermine the very foundation of American life, or check and balances on the Goverment eigther. Like I said, it's a slipery slope.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I think the cause is complex, but stateside the only issue is protecting civilians. How to stop the rage against the US is a complex issue and how that situation is resolved will be very difficult to find. That said, the government has the responsibility to deal with that situation as well as keeping its citizens safe.

Correct. But it's doing the exact opposite at the moment. We, as citizens, also have the responsibility to keep the goverment under check and make it responsive to it's constituency. But that's a whole discussion on it's own that we could go on about forever.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Living in fear and/or sacrificing liberties and freedoms, that which makes America what it is, for real or percieved security doesn't sound like a wise decision eigther. Any temporary measures that are implemented must not undermine the very foundation of American life, or check and balances on the Goverment eigther. Like I said, it's a slipery slope.

Exactly. They would destroy the very thing they are trying to protect.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail Exactly. They would destroy the very thing they are trying to protect.

And it means the terrorists/fundamentalists/other wackos win

BTW, Bosnians are Slavic Europeans, but are mostly Muslim. A lot of Central Asians (Uzbeks, Kazakhs and other Turkic tribes) don't look like typical Arab. Ditto on African Muslims south of Sahara Desert. Nevermind the Indian Muslims, Muslims in South East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia) Heck, even some Iranians can pass for white people (Huns from Iran are direct ancestors of Germans to a degree)

So yeah. Have fun trying to filter out the possible terrorist through racial profiling.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree And it means the terrorists/fundamentalists/other wackos win BTW, Bosnians are Slavic Europeans, but are mostly Muslim. A lot of Central Asians (Uzbeks, Kazakhs and other Turkic tribes) don't look like typical Arab. Ditto on African Muslims south of Sahara Desert. Nevermind the Indian Muslims, Muslims in South East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia) Heck, even some Iranians can pass for white people (Huns from Iran are direct ancestors of Germans to a degree) So yeah. Have fun trying to filter out the possible terrorist through racial profiling.

True. Hence 'Arabs/Muslims' in the thread title. I guess I could have ommited the word 'racial', since Muslims aren't exactly an ethnicly homogenous group.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z True. Hence 'Arabs/Muslims' in the thread title. I guess I could have ommited the word 'racial', since Muslims aren't exactly an ethnicly homogenous group.

Guess when someone in charge figures out that theres about, 280-300,000,000 in SE Asia who are Islamic then theres going to be all kinds of shennanigans... especially since most of them don't like the US either

That's alot of angry brown people !

Yes, big threat is mostly from Jemaah Islamiyah who where responsible for some rather large bombings in the last 5 years. Theres also the others like Hizb ut-Tahrir who are sort of 'militant' in a sense in that they want a muslim caliphate to establish something of a Islamic super state and advocate jihad to do it.
Theyre big and theyre certainly well connected and supported through the region.

quote:

Originally posted by sterilis are you backward? in airports the security are stopping white families, i.e. a white man, white woman, two little children in other terms white caucasion. how many white suicide bombers have thier been? simple fact is that a suicide bomber is male and of arab origin.

ever heard of Oklahoma City bombing?

oh wait it didn't involve planes... but a big truck I guess that invalidates the notion ... and there was no suicide commited there! They caught the bad guy!

aka all whitie crackies are good guys

Yep..9 zillion terror attacks done by arab males 18-35 over the past 50 years and ONE done by a white guy in Oklahoma. So we can't take any additional security steps against the most likely perps...

I'm afraid the PC attitude by some of you guys is going to get you killed one day.

Look, I have a buzzed head. I just happen to like the hairstyle and have been shaving it for a few years now. Now if SKINHEADS had been responsible for every airplane hijacking in the history of manned flight, and responsible for 99.99% of the suicide bombings and other terror attacks in history, it would be utterly ridiculous for me not to expect some extra security measures taken against me at airports, etc. To think an 80 year old grandma should be randomly pulled out of line in front of me and searched while my "skinhead" brothers and I make it through would be insane, and would actually make me feel quite unsafe on that flight.

I would completely understand those extra precautions taken against my group (baldies age 18-35) and would be much more pissed off at the skinheads that caused me this inconvenience than at the government responding to them.

As long as profiling is limited to things like more extensive searches/background checks...and does not violate basic civil rights (illegal detentions, etc) I have no problem with it. It's a perfectly logical and legitimate way to prevent terrorism.

LOL, 9 zillion? More like a handful.. wait... 9/11, 7/7, and Madrid. That makes three. But even that's debatable. So what's with all the paranoia?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, 9 zillion? More like a handful.. wait... 9/11, 7/7, and Madrid. That makes three. But even that's debatable. So what's with all the paranoia?

actually it's much more then that but I think the biggest issue with the profiling is that it was put in place only because most security check points in airports in the US are so poorly managed.

They are trying to be more "efficient" by going directly to what they view as the potential bad guys.

TSA sucks and even the average McDonald is run better.

Come on Shaolin, for someone as well versed in history as you, I'd expect you to know that hijackings and terrorism have been going on for much longer than the past 5 years. The number of suicide bombings in the middle east is impossible to count...and there have actually been almost 1000 airline hijackings by radicals since the 1940s. Not all of them were muslim of course, but today in particular the threat seems to be coming from radical islam, mainly young arab men willing to die in the name of it. To ignore this fact and to treat this group with the same risk assessment as your average 10 year old is just...well, stupid.

See...it all balances out. Muslims may get profiled in the US, but they get private bathrooms in Australia.

LINK

quote:

Row over washrooms Mary Papadakis January 28, 2007 12:00am A ROW has erupted over Muslim-only washrooms at La Trobe University that can be accessed only with a secret push-button code. Muslim students have exclusive access to male and female washrooms on campus, sparking claims of bias and discrimination. The university and Islamic leaders have defended the washrooms as vital to Muslim students' prayer rituals. A university student, who did not want to be identified, raised the issue with the Sunday Herald Sun this week. Australian Family Council spokesman Bill Muehlenberg said concerns over the exclusive facilities were valid. "Do we have a Christian washroom or an atheist washroom?" he said. "The whole thing is madness." Mr Muehlenberg said the separate facilities were divisive. "If Muslims are saying 'we are good Australians and want to integrate', why are they insisting on separate washrooms?" he said. Victorian Muslim community leader Yasser Soliman said the washrooms were necessary. He said the separate facilities were also due to concerns from non-Muslim students. "Muslims need to wash their feet before prayer and in the past there have been complaints about them washing their feet in sinks, so this is a happy medium," he said. Mr Soliman said most universities provided Muslim-only prayer and washrooms for students. A La Trobe University spokesman said the washrooms were established with the advice of senior Muslim religious leaders. He said the university also had a Christian chapel with a meeting room and four chaplains from major denominations had offices. La Trobe University Christian Union vice-president Richard Thamm backed the washrooms. "It's part of their religion, they need to wash in a special way before they pray," he said.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Yep..9 zillion terror attacks done by arab males 18-35 over the past 50 years and ONE done by a white guy in Oklahoma. So we can't take any additional security steps against the most likely perps... I'm afraid the PC attitude by some of you guys is going to get you killed one day. Look, I have a buzzed head. I just happen to like the hairstyle and have been shaving it for a few years now. Now if SKINHEADS had been responsible for every airplane hijacking in the history of manned flight, and responsible for 99.99% of the suicide bombings and other terror attacks in history, it would be utterly ridiculous for me not to expect some extra security measures taken against me at airports, etc. To think an 80 year old grandma should be randomly pulled out of line in front of me and searched while my "skinhead" brothers and I make it through would be insane, and would actually make me feel quite unsafe on that flight. I would completely understand those extra precautions taken against my group (baldies age 18-35) and would be much more pissed off at the skinheads that caused me this inconvenience than at the government responding to them. As long as profiling is limited to things like more extensive searches/background checks...and does not violate basic civil rights (illegal detentions, etc) I have no problem with it. It's a perfectly logical and legitimate way to prevent terrorism.

great post.

ONE done by white guys my fucking ass. Before all this brainwashing that is currently going on it was the white guys who everyone expected to blow shit up. Not just because of ONE either, but then again I can sympathize with stupid people as I guess not everyone knows how to count or use their memory.

I think those coming from regions where there is radical islam, should be looked at more closely when they are traveling in and out of the country, especially if they are going to the middle east..

I think it is mostly blind racism. I live down the street from a fairly large Mosque and every time I drive by with one of my friends they have to make some sort of comment about sandn*ggers. Or if we go to a gas station where there are sikhs working not muslims they still make racial comments about sandn*ggers. And they're sikhs not muslims. I tell my friends you know they're not Arab muslims right? And they say so what they're still sandn*ggers. I'm surprised more people didn't vote yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild ONE done by white guys my fucking ass. Before all this brainwashing that is currently going on it was the white guys who everyone expected to blow shit up. Not just because of ONE either, but then again I can sympathize with stupid people as I guess not everyone knows how to count or use their memory.

Just curious, can you name some of those attacks? I can name quite a few from the past 15 years from middle easterners, but very few from "whites."

1990:
November 5: Assassination of Meir Kahane head of Israel's Koch party and founder of the American vigilante group the Jewish Defense League in a Manhattan, New York hotel lobby by early elements of Al Queda.

1993:
January 25: Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others, see FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives.
February 26: World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front,[33] see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, Ramzi Yousef.
June: Failed New York City landmark bomb plot, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

1994:
March 1: In the Brooklyn Bridge Shooting, Rashid Baz kills a Hasidic seminary student and wounds 4 on the Brooklyn Bridge in New York City in response to the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.[35]

1997:
February 24: An armed man opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, United States, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".

1999:
December 14: Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States�Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots

2001:
September 11: Attacks killed 2,997 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane, originally intended to hit an unknown, but likely prominent, Washington, D.C. target, crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, after an apparent revolt against the hijackers by the plane's passengers; by Al-Qaeda.
December 22: Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.

2002:
July 4: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing two Israelis before being killed himself.

2006:
July 28: An American Muslim of Pakistani descent opened fire inside the Jewish Federation of Seattle, killing one and wounding four.


--Now, those are just attacks on American soil. I'm not counting attacks against Americans abroad. In that time, I can think of two events caused by white males; Oklahoma City and Olympic Park. Perhaps you can "open my eyes" to where all of these other attacks you claim have come from.

I'll name just one since I don't like lazy people and you can look up the rest. Theodore Kaczynski. There are volumes more though so you won't have too much trouble when you try to look for more white guys who have shot up or blown up something.

Do false flag operations count? Because I can assure you many of the terrorist attacks that are done by 'arabs' are actually done by whites employed by security agencies to carry out false flag operations. I believe we started doing it in the 1950s and we still haven't stopped. I know a man through business connections, my friend does work for him, he was Army Special Forces, and after that he worked for the defense department. And while he didn't specifically say he had carried out false flag operations he did say that sometimes they would dress up like Arabs and use enemy weaponry like AKs etc...

Also what about when I white man goes into a gas station and shoots up some brown people working there? Does that count? By what you posted it seems like gunmen killing one or two people counts so I'm counting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I think those coming from regions where there is radical islam, should be looked at more closely when they are traveling in and out of the country, especially if they are going to the middle east..

Regions where they are radical muslims? So any country with a Muslim population?
Good luck trying to point a particular region because extremist Islam is prevalent all over the world where they are Muslim population.

I am a bit disappointed that a lot of you find it ok to alienate and divide American people.

I'm all for intelligence agencies cracking down on terrorist cells by using legal means to gather intelligence.

I am against random picking on minorities because they are perceived to be possible troublemakers.
Most of Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism and they just want to live their lives. Heck, most of them deplore what the terrorists and fundamentalists are doing in the name of Islam and giving Islam a bad name.

It is very easy to fall into fear, esp people that you don't know. Some of you had bad experience with some bad Muslims and that is also affecting your opinion.

My understanding of America is that it is based on principle that individual rights should not be trampled on in the name of for the good of the society.

Or else events like deportation of internment of Japanese Americans (and Japanese Canadians too) become acceptable.
Are we going to segregate Muslim into specific designated spots so that it'll be easier to keep an eye on them?

Policies like racial profiling will only cause more resentment and instead of promoting understanding and cooperation between all groups in the society, it will only promote fear, misunderstanding, ignorance and eventual hatred. How would you feel if you are singled out and harassed constantly? Would you feel wanted by America and be part of the society?

This racial profiling nonsense will only increase more American Muslims becoming terrorists and extremists.

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