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-- Are Dj's Musicians?
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quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree So what about percussionists? There isn't much of music theory or music structure involved when you're hitting a triangle or cymbals.

Tell that to a 14 piece percussion section of an orchestra each of which have dedicated their life to learning and performing music.

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Originally posted by Chris Allen Tell that to a 14 piece percussion section of an orchestra each of which have dedicated their life to learning and performing music.

I was actually trying to support the argument that DJs are musicians

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Originally posted by EvilTree So what about percussionists? There isn't much of music theory or music structure involved when you're hitting a triangle or cymbals.

Yes there is. Very much so.



Edumacate yourself Yohan.

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Originally posted by slingshot Yes there is. Very much so. Edumacate yourself Yohan.

Bah. I've been pwned.

But only slightly!

My point still stands.

What about triangle, castanets, tambourine, etc?

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Originally posted by EvilTree What about triangle, castanets, tambourine, etc?

Although the types of percussion instruments that you are suggesting resonate an indefinate pitch and more or less only serve a rhythmic purpose, they still adhere to the timing structure of musical theory.

It's not just like tap here, tap there, shake here, shake there. The rhythm for these instruments can still be written in a score of music.

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Originally posted by Endlesswave Tiesto didn't really need huge production cred to get gigs earlier,

this is actually false. i read in a tiestocle interview that he didn't start getting gigs until he started producing.. ala kamaya painters, gouryella, magik's... etc


cmon man! endless waveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!11

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Originally posted by EvilTree Bah. I've been pwned.

cmon man, where are you ninja-reflex counter moves? don't dissapoint!

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Originally posted by slingshot Although the types of percussion instruments that you are suggesting resonate an indefinate pitch and more or less only serve a rhythmic purpose, they still adhere to the timing structure of musical theory.

Same as a DJ playing an effect on a mixer?

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It's not just like tap here, tap there, shake here, shake there. The rhythm for these instruments can still be written in a score of music.

I don't see this as relevant to whether percussionist should be considered a musician.

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Originally posted by Porky cmon man, where are you ninja-reflex counter moves? don't dissapoint!

School broke my spirit this semester and my ninja chi fled

I lose

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Same as a DJ playing an effect on a mixer?

not at all. a dj pressing a button to play an effect on a mixer is no different than a kid pressing the a key on his xbox controller to shoot a gun which in turn makes a sound.

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I don't see this as relevant to whether percussionist should be considered a musician.

if you can't see the relevance in this than that is a clear indication that your knowledge of music, in particular structre, theory, and what exactly constitutes music is not anywhere close to where it needs to be in order to even have this discussion.

a few quick questions....

1. Do you play an instrument?
2. Have you ever had any formal musical training?
3. Do you have any knowledge of musical theory or structure? (ie. basic theory...grade 2 etc etc)

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot not at all.

Hmmm... I think we're having a big difference between whether electronic means qualify as an instrument to the level of traditional instruments are.

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if you can't see the relevance in this than that is a clear indication that your knowledge of music, in particular structre, theory, and what exactly constitutes music is not anywhere close to where it needs to be in order to even have this discussion.

I'm sure a DJ using Ableton can breakdown all the elements of a tune and show each pad, melody, etc just like you can see on an orchestral piece of music.

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a few quick questions.... 1. Do you play an instrument?

Piano for 4 yrs. Flute for 8 yrs.

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2. Have you ever had any formal musical training? 3. Do you have any knowledge of musical theory or structure? (ie. basic theory...grade 2 etc etc)

Piano lessons did incl. a lot of that stuff, plus took music all through junior high to OAC.

Do I qualify?

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Originally posted by EvilTree Do I qualify?

Yes, you do. And I am completely baffled as to how you can be arguing against me on this.

I ask you this question....

Can you take what a DJ does in a set and explain every single thing through theory and translate that on to paper? IE. score it.


What gets me in discussions like these is just how bad people's misconceptions of how loose music and more so musical structure is. It's not, at all. Music can explained with the same level of presicion that a biologist can explan the inner workings of the human body. EVERYTHING in music has an explanation and place amoungst the structure of music. Pressing buttons on a machine does not adhere to this structure and has no theoretical explanation. Therefore, it is impossible to call an indvidual who presses these buttons a musician.

Keep in mind, i'm speaking entirely in technical terms here. I think what's happening is that alot of people are being mistaken with what the objective definition of a musician is. It's a stupid argument. Why it happens is beyond me because replace the word musician with artist and we're good to go. There is no need to even discuss whether or not a DJ is a musician because you can easily say artist, and the term artist comes with the same amount of acclaim, endearment, respect, and recognition. So many people are debating this subjectively and it's a matter than can be answered in an objective way.

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Originally posted by slingshot Yes, you do. And I am completely baffled as to how you can be arguing against me on this.

LOL. Just because two doctors have an MD, that doesn't mean they agree on how to treat a patient

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I ask you this question.... Can you take what a DJ does in a set and explain every single thing through theory and translate that on to paper? IE. score it.

Providing that a DJ's set is recorded and used on a program such as Ableton to deconstruct every element, why not?

Or are you talking about how a piece of music is played, such as forte, crescendo and whatnot?
In which case you still can imitate that using EQ and fader on mixer, then deconstruct on Ableton

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What gets me in discussions like these is just how bad people's misconceptions of how loose music and more so musical structure is. It's not, at all. Music can explained with the same level of presicion that a biologist can explan the inner workings of the human body. EVERYTHING in music has an explanation and place amoungst the structure of music. Pressing buttons on a machine does not adhere to this structure and has no theoretical explanation. Therefore, it is impossible to call an indvidual who presses these buttons a musician.

I think you're getting hung up on how much should a pressing buttons on an instrument to produce a single note and do that multiple times to produce a stream of music versus what a DJ does when pressing a button on a CDJ to produce musical sound. It's just pressing a CDJ button produces a complex musical sound that's got multiple layers of sound already.

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Keep in mind, i'm speaking entirely in technical terms here. I think what's happening is that alot of people are being mistaken with what the objective definition of a musician is. It's a stupid argument. Why it happens is beyond me because replace the word musician with artist and we're good to go. There is no need to even discuss whether or not a DJ is a musician because you can easily say artist, and the term artist comes with the same amount of acclaim, endearment, respect, and recognition. So many people are debating this subjectively and it's a matter than can be answered in an objective way.

Ok. So what is your definition of music? A musician?

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Originally posted by EvilTree

hahahaha, dude...you're just completely throwing things out there. the idea's that you are mentioning are abstract and a stretch at best.

what is my definition of music? please....where on earth are you trying to go with this?

but to answer your question, which in turn supports my argument...my definition of music is exactly what it is....

mu�sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

music is a science.

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Originally posted by slingshot hahahaha, dude...you're just completely throwing things out there. the idea's that you are mentioning are abstract and a stretch at best. what is my definition of music? please....where on earth are you trying to go with this?

Eh. Our biggest difference is that you think musician in terms of technical perspective (but I think I've already explained why a DJ should be considered through technical perspective) But I think a musician is more than just technical; it involves abstractness such as creativity as well. (Which I think you're trying to push more towards the realm of artist)

I asked about your definitions because frankly, I'm not exactly sure what are you basing your arguments off of. I've stated my definitions of music and musician.
Since there are multiple definitions of music, if I am to better comprehend your arguments, I need to see from which perspective are you coming from.

edit: Yep. I see your answer.

lol at this thread and the huge discussion
a dj is not a musician. A musician is someone who plays a musical instrument and/or produces/composes music. Singers would be musicians also.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot but to answer your question, which in turn supports my argument...my definition of music is exactly what it is.... mu�sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation �noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

I don't see electronic form being discounted here. Heck, it seems to emphasis creativity aspect of music

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2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

This also supports my argument, but only if you buy that a DJ's equipment are also considered instruments. (previous posts states my position on this)

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3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing. 4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

Last two defining what a tune is.

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music is a science.

How can it be science? Science, as I understand it, leaves no room for creativity because it is a systematical approach to a result.

Heck, even your definition uses the word 'art' which is about most un science word I can think of. Art is creative in any form.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Eh. Our biggest difference is that you think musician in terms of technical perspective (but I think I've already explained why a DJ should be considered through technical perspective) But I think a musician is more than just technical; it involves abstractness such as creativity as well. (Which I think you're trying to push more towards the realm of artist)

lol, becaues musicican is a term that can be defined technically. music in general is highly technical and therefore the majority of debates can be tackled in an objective matter. you are trying to take objective things and make them subjective. i totally see where you're coming from and compltely understand your views on the subject. in the broad sense of the word, yes, dj's are musicians....but technically speaking it is impossible to agree with this and make this claim. my main goal in this thread was to create awareness that contrary to what many people may think, music is insanely technical. the majority of arguments can be settled by fact. having spent as much time as i have in my life studying music it is almost heartbreaking at times to see many musical issues being discussed in such an ignorant manner.

Yohan, you're the only person I've come across who repeatedly uses "Heck".

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree How can it be science? Science, as I understand it, leaves no room for creativity because it is a systematical approach to a result. Heck, even your definition uses the word 'art' which is about most un science word I can think of. Art is creative in any form.

a-ha...and thus is the beauty of music....it is a perfect fusion of art and science....while the end product is ussually something that can be referred to as a work of art...a scientific approach can be used to explain it.

not musicians.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It's like saying George Lucas is a great director. No he isn't, he's a shit director, he's just a good editor. DJs are editors. Some producers are also editors. Instrumentalists and composers and conductors are not editors, they are musicians.

Leave my buddy George Lucas out of this. LOL

Anyway, John Williams is a musician and Tiesto and company are not. Including my fav god-like DJ Carl Cox.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot lol, becaues musicican is a term that can be defined technically. music in general is highly technical and therefore the majority of debates can be tackled in an objective matter. you are trying to take objective things and make them subjective. i totally see where you're coming from and compltely understand your views on the subject. in the broad sense of the word, yes, dj's are musicians....

Partial victory is mine?

quote:

but technically speaking it is impossible to agree with this and make this claim. my main goal in this thread was to create awareness that contrary to what many people may think, music is insanely technical. the majority of arguments can be settled by fact.

I don't think anyone was disputing the fact that music is technical and requires a high degree of skill to be proficient in whatever form.

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having spent as much time as i have in my life studying music it is almost heartbreaking at times to see many musical issues being discussed in such an ignorant manner.

Bah. Emotions should never play part in a logical debate and reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot a-ha...and thus is the beauty of music....it is a perfect fusion of art and science....while the end product is ussually something that can be referred to as a work of art...a scientific approach can be used to explain it.

If you mean using a scientific approach or a systematic method to explain music, yes I'll agree.
But the issue of contention was not about how to explain music, but who qualifies as musicians...

quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Yohan, you're the only person I've come across who repeatedly uses "Heck".

I'm so redneck like that.
But I'm even more proficient with the usage of the word 'fuck'

Yohan, i'm sorry, but this back and forth argument is getting very tiring. You simply are just not getting it. Straight up, you are wrong. If you would like, I can come pick you up and take you to the Royal Ontario Conservatory of Music or to the music faculty of any university where there is a person who posseses a doctorate in music. You can present your argument to them and have it absolutely quashed. Since you are failing to grasp the completely objective arguments that I am bringing forth, maybe someone with a few letters after their name will do a good job at humbling you.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Yohan, i'm sorry, but this back and forth argument is getting very tiring. You simply are just not getting it. Straight up, you are wrong. If you would like, I can come pick you up and take you to the Royal Ontario Conservatory of Music or to the music faculty of any university where there is a person who posseses a doctorate in music. You can present your argument to them and have it absolutely quashed. Since you are failing to grasp the completely objective arguments that I am bringing forth, maybe someone with a few letters after their name will do a good job at humbling you.

LOL.

I don't debate for the sheer arrogance of myself trying to beat down on my opponents. I debate for the enjoyment of having a logical and intelligent discussion from varying points of view.

I admit that I'm no expert, but I think I've presented my arguments in a logical and reasonable fashion. Likewise while it was hard at times to see where you're coming from, but your arguments were also logical and reasonable.

I don't believe I'm less sane, or any less open minded to others POV. I am hard to convince, but I think I'm fair and I will concede to what makes sense said by others. If I am not adopting your point of view, it is because I was unconvinced by the strength of your arguments. That's all.

It was an enjoyable discussion while it lasted.

PS: My mom's got no PhD, but she's got her BA in music from Mount Allison plus she's been teaching music and piano for over 15 yrs. I'm sure she can quash me like a bug, plus she knows what buttons to push on me

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