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i made a thread about it in the gaming forum a few days ago, it might not be down to the level of most chill-out room posters though. i was really excited when i heard they might be announcing sc2, and i was pretty excited reading the first few comments and the cgi trailer. but my excitement has gone down quite a bit since then, it does just seem that they are giving sc1 new graphics and a few new units and features and streamlining it for online competitive play. there are no hero units, everything has a specific counter, it has the same perspective and semi 3-d terrain. it is still really early but i get the feeling they could have done more than what they have with it so far. im not really interested in tournaments or anything so i dont really care that much how tweaked and improved the balance is between units. i debated with pkc about c&c3 and supreme commander and i guess i conceded that it was pretty much just a rehash of older games but including some of the more recent features. i have a feeling this is going to be the same thing. having said that, i am still excited about continuing the story and the single player campain, because i think it would be too hard for them to screw it up

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Originally posted by Marc Summers Not at all! There are more than 3 ways to win! Zerglings get owned by mutalisks, which get owned by corsairs, which get owned by hydralisks and marines, which get owned by ultralisks! now it's a whole other story if someone masses dark archons!

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Originally posted by Googooly excuse me?

dark archons. like archons, but dark.

Of course they aren't gonna change the formula. Why mess with perfection? Theres a reason SC 1 has been the #1 competitive RTS game out there for so many years. Even when you have your newer CoH, SupCom, C&C3...the world still plays StarCraft. It's the modern day chess. Units and races are perfectly balanced.

It wouldn't make sense to take what SC 1 was, and try to do something like SupCom, with hundreds of units and a crazy huge battlefield. How would that translate for competitive play? In S. Korea (the biggest market) they have leagues and televise the games daily. How the hell do you do that with a game like SupCom, it would be nearly impossible to follow the action. Their going to keep the gameplay and the pace exactly the same, just add units, change current units, and upgrade the graphics; so when most fans who have been playing the game for a long as 10 years, can open up the new box and jump right in and know what their doing. From average Joe's like us, up to the pro gamer.

Like someone already said, Blizzard has never lead the industry in graphics in ANY of their releases, however, in most ALL of their games, their artstyle and direction surpass any other. Their graphics are always scaleable, increasing their potential market share by a lot. Their gameplay speaks for itself, all of their releases are major hits worldwide, always. I mean comeon, it's Blizzard, if it doesn't live up to the name, they can it (StarCraft: Ghost).

I'm not worried, as long as they can keep the unit balance, it'll be exactly like what most long time SCers want out of it. No heroes, no clutter, just fast paced, tightly controlled action.

to all the GFX haters....blizzards intention for ALL their games is to reach the largest possible audience including people who CANT afford to have a teraflop machine.

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Originally posted by drivingforce Hey anyone remember how blizzard created an entire game Ghost and never released it...wtf happened to that project?

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Originally posted by SuspicionVandit it jumped ship 4 times. i think they are still making it under a new engine, a different development company and for next-gen console(s)

starcraft: ghost has been canceled. was canceled like 2 or 3 years ago. the original development company wasnt doing what they wanted so they moved to a 2nd dev company. they didnt like the pace, bought the company and canceled it.

I got 2 discs of that supreme commander with my PC parts from newegg...never installed it.

Is it worth the install?

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Originally posted by jupiterone I got 2 discs of that supreme commander with my PC parts from newegg...never installed it. Is it worth the install?

Dibs if you wanna get rid of it!

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Originally posted by david.michael Dibs if you wanna get rid of it!

You can have a disc if you want, I got 2 copies of the game, so I wouldn't mind giving one away.

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Originally posted by jupiterone You can have a disc if you want, I got 2 copies of the game, so I wouldn't mind giving one away.

That's quite awesome of you. Sending a PM.

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Originally posted by Taranis Blizzard, innovative? :/ Blizzard perfect games and make them accessable to the masses, they don't innovate them.

well perhaps they should.

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Originally posted by SLR722 Of course they aren't gonna change the formula. Why mess with perfection? Theres a reason SC 1 has been the #1 competitive RTS game out there for so many years. Even when you have your newer CoH, SupCom, C&C3...the world still plays StarCraft. It's the modern day chess. Units and races are perfectly balanced.

perhaps it was perfection 8 years ago, but times have changed and i for one expect more than just a shiny new engine. i want a simulation, not yet another hard-countered, instant-hit, rock paper scissors game. the power of modern machines is awesome, theres no excuse for taking the easy way out if at the same time you're not including anything remotely new from a gameplay perspective.

and i wish all you people would stop banging on about "perfect balance". frozen throne is perfectly balanced. whoopy do! its relatively easy to balance something when you use arbitrary rulesets to do so *yawns* such rulesets limit the tactical or strategic possibilities. ie "oh, i absolutely must build unit X because he is going to have unit Y". i hate games like that. at least in games like CoH there are multiple units to deal with other units. and supreme commander is unequalled when it comes to strategic depth and the way in which you can achieve your goals (especially so when this week's patch arrives!)

im sure starcraft 2 will please heaps of people, but we've been playing the 20 minute rush-styled game for almost a decade now, and i for one wanted to see a new direction with this classic IP. just another build-order-memory-exercise followed by a clickfest. again, thank god for supcom!!

I think the patch came out today.

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Originally posted by Sunsnail I think the patch came out today.

yeah, logging into GPG and you get an instant patch, but since i dont have the net at home, i have to wait for a direct link just read some more release notes, and fvck this awesome game just got better. heaps of new gameplay options and general tightening up of current coding. definitely get back into it snail!!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well perhaps they should. perhaps it was perfection 8 years ago, but times have changed and i for one expect more than just a shiny new engine. i want a simulation, not yet another hard-countered, instant-hit, rock paper scissors game. the power of modern machines is awesome, theres no excuse for taking the easy way out if at the same time you're not including anything remotely new from a gameplay perspective. and i wish all you people would stop banging on about "perfect balance". frozen throne is perfectly balanced. whoopy do! its relatively easy to balance something when you use arbitrary rulesets to do so *yawns* such rulesets limit the tactical or strategic possibilities. ie "oh, i absolutely must build unit X because he is going to have unit Y". i hate games like that. at least in games like CoH there are multiple units to deal with other units. and supreme commander is unequalled when it comes to strategic depth and the way in which you can achieve your goals (especially so when this week's patch arrives!) im sure starcraft 2 will please heaps of people, but we've been playing the 20 minute rush-styled game for almost a decade now, and i for one wanted to see a new direction with this classic IP. just another build-order-memory-exercise followed by a clickfest. again, thank god for supcom!!

This is why Warcraft 3 got old to me way too fast. There were too few strategies that actually worked, so you basically played the same game every time you played. Warcraft 2 was FAR superior. If Warcraft 2 had heroes it'd be the ultimate RTS.

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Originally posted by CONNERMAN2000 This is why Warcraft 3 got old to me way too fast. There were too few strategies that actually worked, so you basically played the same game every time you played. Warcraft 2 was FAR superior. If Warcraft 2 had heroes it'd be the ultimate RTS.

Are you kidding me? There are TONS of strategies for wc3. Have you tried towering? Have you tried massing ancient of wars? Have you done the Warden strategy with night elf, where you mass moon wells in your base and kill the enemy's army with just your hero? How about buying mercs? how about mass banshees and possess the enemies army?

If you think there are not enough strategies, you are sadly mistaken. Noob.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers Are you kidding me? There are TONS of strategies for wc3. Have you tried towering? Have you tried massing ancient of wars? Have you done the Warden strategy with night elf, where you mass moon wells in your base and kill the enemy's army with just your hero? How about buying mercs? how about mass banshees and possess the enemies army? If you think there are not enough strategies, you are sadly mistaken. Noob.

but its the same style every single time. build unit X to counter unit Y. that isnt strategy. play against orc, and 100% guarantee youre gonna be fighting off the blademaster. got really old for me really quickly. still an awesome game, but i dont see SC2 bringing anything notably different from FT in terms of gameplay mechanics.

long live supreme commander!

ok so...

there is this game...called...chess, how long has it been around for? a long time, yes? and still popular today...

sc and wc3 are modern day forms of chess imo, for one, because they are very well balanced and there is clear logic in each and every action you take.

on the surface, it may seem that wc3 or sc are just games where you 'memorize build orders and do the same thing everytime', but that's only the tip of the iceberg...

when you reach a high level of play, you can start to deviate from the typical stuff, but whatever...


and also, wc and sc are games best played 1v1, team games are also fun tho.

EDIT: ok so didnt see someone else mention the chess metaphor before me...lol...

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Originally posted by ASFSE ok so... there is this game...called...chess, how long has it been around for? a long time, yes? and still popular today... sc and wc3 are modern day forms of chess imo, for one, because they are very well balanced and there is clear logic in each and every action you take. on the surface, it may seem that wc3 or sc are just games where you 'memorize build orders and do the same thing everytime', but that's only the tip of the iceberg... when you reach a high level of play, you can start to deviate from the typical stuff, but whatever... and also, wc and sc are games best played 1v1, team games are also fun tho. EDIT: ok so didnt see someone else mention the chess metaphor before me...lol...

oh yeah, i forgot! pawns do extra damage to knights whilst queens are forbidden from taking flying pieces but can take ground pieces because the game designers said so.

ie: BOLLOCKS. these games are nothing like chess.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh yeah, i forgot! pawns do extra damage to knights whilst queens are forbidden from taking flying pieces but can take ground pieces because the game designers said so. ie: BOLLOCKS. these games are nothing like chess.

i said it's a modern day form of chess...so of course, there are gonna be some little modern advancments or else it would be a little boring.

can you elaborate and tell me why it isnt like chess?

chess, a game of anticipation and critical thinking, each choice you make decides the moments to follow.

pretty similiar to wc/sc...actually, pretty similar to life, lol.

and judging from your statement earlier about how "if you play agaisnt orc, there is 100% guarantee that they will go blademaster" i have the feeling that you didnt play the game very much.

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Originally posted by ASFSE i said it's a modern day form of chess...so of course, there are gonna be some little modern advancments or else it would be a little boring. can you elaborate and tell me why it isnt like chess?

well firstly, both sides are exactly the same. there are also no bonuses in chess to be memorised. there arent silly hard-countering rules- every chess piece has a role to perform, but isn't limited in what you perform against ie a (tier 1) pawn is perfectly capable of taking a (tier 3) queen in the right circumstance (all pieces are capable of attacking all other pieces). no piece gets a "bonus" against any other piece, or a negative. no fog of war. turn based versus real time. the list is almost endless

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Originally posted by ASFSE and judging from your statement earlier about how "if you play agaisnt orc, there is 100% guarantee that they will go blademaster" i have the feeling that you didnt play the game very much.

i think youre the one that played very little online against good players. any good player with orc used the blademaster.

again, im not saying SC2 will be a bad game, just that there isn't anything remotely new in terms of gameplay to get excited about. been there, done that. its disappointing.

Dear God i'm almost in tears!What's the release date!?

PKC, I understand entirely what's you're saying, in that strategy is very one-dimensional, because if your opponent attacks with unit x, your ONLY defence is with unit Y. This makes the game boring.

I'm not entirely sure I agree though.

Say a Protoss player decides to attack another Protoss player with a whole lot of carriers. The player being attacked could defend with:

1. Dragoons. Quite adept at taking down carriers if there are enough of them.
2. High Templars with psionic storm. Deadly.
3. Carriers
4. Scouts

So, that's four options right there.

However, using your teminology, you dislike "hard" counters, which in this case would probably be the Templars?

My opinion is that while hard counters can make a game a little bit one dimensional, they are also entirely necessary.

Firstly, if playing a Protoss player, you can never be sure if they are going to attack with a large fleet of carriers, a mass of dragoons, 4-5 dark archons, or any other combination of these. This ensures that you build several different unit types, so that you are defended against all kinds of attacks. If there were no hard counters, one unit type could be built to defend against anything and everything, and building different types would be pointless.

Secondly, if a particular type of unit does not have a weakness that can be countered, the game becomes even more boring because both players will always use this unit over weaker ones.

A good example of this was the heavy horse archer in the original Age Of Empires. It was fast, had a good range, could take some damage, and do a fair amount too. This meant that any good player would just build masses of horse archers, because there was nothing to directly defeat them, unlike catapults, which could be attacked by fast units that we able to dodge their missiles.

Applying this to starcraft, imagine that battle cruisers and carriers were not slow moving, the one weakness which allows ground and lighter air units to hunt them down and hurt them. Players would attack almost exclusively with these two units, then sail away before you had a chance to counter.

Or perhaps the Zerg Ultralisk could attack air units as well as ground units? What reason would you have to build anything else (besides the fact that they are expensive!).

Finally, if you think about real war, everything in real life has a counter too.

Tanks kill infantry, tanks are easily picked off by bombers. Bombers are slow, and are easily picked off by jets. Jets are easily killed by battleships, with heat-seeking missiles etc. Battleships are easily sunk by mines or submarines...everything has a weakness and therefore a counter.

One final note...the thing I have always hated about Starcraft is the fucking terran ghosts and nukes. If you have a large base with 4-5 different spots that minerals are being mined, it's almost impossible to find that pesky red dot that tells you where the nuke is about to land before it blows up in your face. They should have increased the time delay on this I think. Maybe by another twenty seconds or so.

Actually, let me describe it another way using the chess analogy.

If Starcraft was like a game of chess, what reason would you have to make pawns? Everyone would just make Queens and the game would be boring as hell...

if all the queens had HDR and ragdoll, i'd buy it

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Say a Protoss player decides to attack another Protoss player with a whole lot of carriers. The player being attacked could defend with: 1. Dragoons. Quite adept at taking down carriers if there are enough of them. 2. High Templars with psionic storm. Deadly. 3. Carriers 4. Scouts

5. arbiters to freeze a couple of them
6. templars creating mass illusions of other carriers, then take out the real ones with just a handful of units
7. a douzen corsairs
8. cannons (order them individually to target the carriers)
9. archons

and my ultimate favorite defense;

10. dark archons with mind control

I just found this video on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0cL7ofmwA

Not sure what's going on because I'm at work and can't listen, but whatever that Protoss ship at the end is doesn't seem to have any weaknesses. It must surely be a hero unit?

It kills like 30 marines, then about 6 battle cruisers. Seems to have about 4 different ways of attacking...

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Originally posted by Beat Blog I just found this video on youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0cL7ofmwA Not sure what's going on because I'm at work and can't listen, but whatever that Protoss ship at the end is doesn't seem to have any weaknesses. It must surely be a hero unit? It kills like 30 marines, then about 6 battle cruisers. Seems to have about 4 different ways of attacking...

They've mentioned that it costs a lot of ressources to produce and that you can only have one of them at any given time. I imagine it must cost alot of supply too. So it's really just a tradeoff between having a bunch of smaller units or just one really powerful and versatile unit. It moves really slowly too. Pretty much any unit shown so far can outrun it.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm glad they haven't changed the paradigm, that was my biggest worry but it looks like it's not going to happen. I'm not totally sold on 3D, but i'll reserve judgment on that for now...

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