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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Millions of men gave their lives to free people from a holocaust and you want to compare the Nazis to their victims? Wow. How lost we've become...

We went to war with Germany to save Jews from percecution?! I must be thinkin of a different WW2 cos the one I have heard of we went to war with Germany to stop their expansionist polices when they invaded Poland (or in America's case, they joined only when they were attacked themselves and didn't come to anyone's aid but themselves but thats another thread! )

Nobody lifted a finger to help the Jews in Nazi Germany so dont kid yourself that that's what the war was about. The world left them for dead and nobody cared about what Germany did until it effected them...

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Originally posted by EvilTree Looking at political situation, though often times people in Middle East band together through tribal affiliations, they are split religion. (though members of same tribe tend to be of same religion) Take Lebanon for example. You have Sunnis, Shiites and Christians. They don't join other religious groups.

While in general I agree with the above, times do change. Take your example of Lebanon, a country savaged by civil war where what you describe above happened (even the different Christian groups were against each other!), today we see (in very general terms) two political movements - the pro and anti Syrians. The antis consist of Sunni, Druze and Christians, something incomprehensible 15 years ago when each of those groups were the main culprits of the civil war

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Originally posted by George Smiley It might not. And do you know something? If that scenario happened the Palestinians would lose most of the support they enjoy from the majority of the international community so surely withdrawing from all occupied territories would present a Israel with a win win situation - if they withdraw and the Palestinians stop the attacks then we have peace, if they carry on the attacks and Israel re-occupies the territories then it will have gained the support of the international community it currently does not enjoy

I don't think Palestinians give a shit about international community support. As long as other Arab nations support them, they'll get money.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley While in general I agree with the above, times do change. Take your example of Lebanon, a country savaged by civil war where what you describe above happened (even the different Christian groups were against each other!), today we see (in very general terms) two political movements - the pro and anti Syrians. The antis consist of Sunni, Druze and Christians, something incomprehensible 15 years ago when each of those groups were the main culprits of the civil war

I see this as temporary enemy of my enemy is my friend alliance, though I'm no expert at Lebanese politics.
Though things have been very fucked up in that nation for a long time and I think religious polarization has settled in and only the Syrians have managed to botch this to break through that polarization.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley It might not. And do you know something? If that scenario happened the Palestinians would lose most of the support they enjoy from the majority of the international community so surely withdrawing from all occupied territories would present a Israel with a win win situation - if they withdraw and the Palestinians stop the attacks then we have peace, if they carry on the attacks and Israel re-occupies the territories then it will have gained the support of the international community it currently does not enjoy

Funny.

Most likely the International community will claim that Israel didn't withdraw from a one acre of some un-irrigable farm land near some corner of some insignificant swath of land. Or perhaps they will clamor that Israel can not really receive peace until it grants Palestinians the right of return, I could go on and on...

I think your idea that Israeli politicians gamble the fate of the Israeli nation on the whims of the international community is indeed full proof! I can't believe it has taken me so long to see this light x5

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Originally posted by EvilTree I don't think Palestinians give a shit about international community support. As long as other Arab nations support them, they'll get money.

I'm sorry but that quote from you tells me all I need to know. You're suffering from a severe lack of knowledge about this topic.

The PA is pretty much all funded by the EU (and to a lesser extent America) but when Hamas won that funding was stopped (and would start again if Hamas renounce their policy of the destruction of Israel). The PA's politicians, civil servants and public workers are not getting paid. So, yes Palestinians DO care about the international comunity and NO they AREN'T getting their money.

In future please dont post if you have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you have an opinion different to mine (which you probably will) make it an informed opinion

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley We went to war with Germany to save Jews from percecution?! I must be thinkin of a different WW2 cos the one I have heard of we went to war with Germany to stop their expansionist polices when they invaded Poland (or in America's case, they joined only when they were attacked themselves and didn't come to anyone's aid but themselves but thats another thread! ) Nobody lifted a finger to help the Jews in Nazi Germany so dont kid yourself that that's what the war was about. The world left them for dead and nobody cared about what Germany did until it effected them...

Uh...the Holocaust included a lot more than just Jews...
(notice I never singled out 'Jews')

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Originally posted by Yoepus Funny. Most likely the International community will claim that Israel didn't withdraw from a one acre of some un-irrigable farm land near some corner of some insignificant swath of land. Or perhaps they will clamor that Israel can not really receive peace until it grants Palestinians the right of return, I could go on and on...

No. The international comunity (ie America, EU, Russia, UN) have agreed on various issues they want to see in an end settlement. The right of return is not a requirement. Neither will the issue of some "insignificant swath of land" become a factor as '67 borders are '67 borders (if you get out of them!)

I would suggest that it is YOU that is using these issues in order to impede a final peaceful settlement (why?)

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I think your idea that Israeli politicians gamble the fate of the Israeli nation on the whims of the international community is indeed full proof! I can't believe it has taken me so long to see this light x5

Fate of the Israeli nation?! Don't tell me you buy into that nonesense about existiential threats? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians are capable of "destroying" Israel? I fail to see what difference it would make if you withdrew your line of defence back to 67 borders. Your military is only in the West Bank to thwart an attack from Jordan or Iraq and how likely is that gonna happen now? It will never happen. Failing that, the only reason you occupy the West Bank is to protect the settlers. It poses no security benefits to Israel proper to have your troops there, in fact it is detrimental to your security as it pisses the Palestinians off, they have their lives disrupted and land stolen.

Evacuate the settlements and you will have no need to occupy the West Bank, then we'll take it from there.

But Israel needs to make the first step, and there is no valid reason why it shouldn't...and I am keen to hear a valid reason if you have one?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Uh...the Holocaust included a lot more than just Jews... (notice I never singled out 'Jews')

What difference does that make to my point?



And if you want me to act like as much as an arsehole as you, then where did I say only Jews were involved in the Holocaust???

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Originally posted by George Smiley What difference does that make to my point? And if you want me to act like as much as an arsehole as you, then where did I say only Jews were involved in the Holocaust???

What are you going on about?

BTW do you read your own posts?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley We went to war with Germany to save Jews from percecution?!

I answered your question, what's the problem now?
You pointed out the Jews specifically when I didn't.
It's quite obvious we never went to war 'just for the Jews' which you're trying, for some reason, to point out that I somehow, did.

The point, which seemed to have been missed, was that millions of people were killed or wounded for overall holocaust (amoung other things) in general.

It's not that nobody cared! They were all too busy trying to appease and Hilter took advantage.
Maybe this picture will help...

Chamberlain holds the paper containing the resolution to commit to peaceful methods signed by both Hitler and himself on his return from Germany at Heston Airport in September 1938. He said:
My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time.

So don't believe that no one cared, that's just ludicrous...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley No. The international comunity (ie America, EU, Russia, UN) have agreed on various issues they want to see in an end settlement. The right of return is not a requirement. Neither will the issue of some "insignificant swath of land" become a factor as '67 borders are '67 borders (if you get out of them!)

Great I'm glad the "international community" agrees unanimously about that, now what does the international community think about swapping land for land?

After all it is completely impossible to revert to some artificial point in time when there has been 40 years of real facts and emotiosn to change that. Do you think Israelis will trust the Palestinians with the sanctity of their holy sites such as the wailing wall when they have clearly demonstrated in past that they could care less for Jewish places of worship?

Just some stalling points; you see no peace will be a 100% what the international community wants, what the Israelis want, or what the Palestinians want. Therefore I think it is ridiculous to listen to outside players to draw a peace treaty between too rivals.

This would be akin to as you British did 70 odd years ago here by drawing lines in the sand. That didn't help, the international imposing artificial restrictions/agreements won't help. A true agreement can only happen between the two sides. Until there is a Palestinian side to negotiate with there will be no agreement.

Simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r What are you going on about? BTW do you read your own posts? I answered your question, what's the problem now? You pointed out the Jews specifically when I didn't. It's quite obvious we never went to war 'just for the Jews' which you're trying, for some reason, to point out that I somehow, did. The point, which seemed to have been missed, was that millions of people were killed or wounded for overall holocaust (amoung other things) in general. It's not that nobody cared! They were all too busy trying to appease and Hilter took advantage. Maybe this picture will help... Chamberlain holds the paper containing the resolution to commit to peaceful methods signed by both Hitler and himself on his return from Germany at Heston Airport in September 1938. He said: My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. So don't believe that no one cared, that's just ludicrous...

That whole post is nearly as revelent as your previous one...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Great I'm glad the "international community" agrees unanimously about that, now what does the international community think about swapping land for land?

If that is something the Israelis/Palestinians could agree to then fine, however I suspect the land you'd be swapping would involve large chunks out of the centre of Palestine, serverely disrupting Palestinian life. Yoepus, you're not a religious extremist so why do you feel the need to defend the settlers??

quote:

After all it is completely impossible to revert to some artificial point in time when there has been 40 years of real facts and emotiosn to change that. Do you think Israelis will trust the Palestinians with the sanctity of their holy sites such as the wailing wall when they have clearly demonstrated in past that they could care less for Jewish places of worship?

Would you accept Jerusalem as an international city under the UN?

quote:

Just some stalling points; you see no peace will be a 100% what the international community wants, what the Israelis want, or what the Palestinians want. Therefore I think it is ridiculous to listen to outside players to draw a peace treaty between too rivals. This would be akin to as you British did 70 odd years ago here by drawing lines in the sand. That didn't help, the international imposing artificial restrictions/agreements won't help. A true agreement can only happen between the two sides.

Unfortunately both sides have proved they are not capable of reaching a peace agreement so I'm sorry but it needs to be pressured from outside

quote:

Until there is a Palestinian side to negotiate with there will be no agreement. Simple as that.

I agree 100%. Hamas needs to recognise Israel as the first step. But the PLO recognised Israel and look where that got them...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I'm sorry but that quote from you tells me all I need to know. You're suffering from a severe lack of knowledge about this topic. The PA is pretty much all funded by the EU (and to a lesser extent America) but when Hamas won that funding was stopped (and would start again if Hamas renounce their policy of the destruction of Israel). The PA's politicians, civil servants and public workers are not getting paid. So, yes Palestinians DO care about the international comunity and NO they AREN'T getting their money. In future please dont post if you have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you have an opinion different to mine (which you probably will) make it an informed opinion

IIRC the Arab League (well, some nations in it) said that if EU stopped giving money to PA, they'd step in to fill the gap.

Honestly, do you think other richer anti Israel muslim nations would sit idly and let PA rot when PA is the one really doing anything to harm Israel right now?

I'm wondering if George smiley has any friends. or life for that matter. His pre-occupation with Israeli/Palestinian conflict is beyond obsessive. This is a person who does not focus all his brainpower and much flaunted-about wisdom on other agendas that may be more pressing and perhaps more likely to bear fruit, such as global warming, aids, fighting cancer or other plights plaguing humanity. No, his obsession is with Jews and his self-established duty to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't exist.

Ok George we get it. You don't like Jews. You don't want them to have their own land, come to think of it - you wouldn't be too sad to see them all just... disappear. Now that we have established that, would you please JUST F*CKING GO AND HANGYOURSELF OR AT LEAST BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT?

that would be really great. please leave a touching emo story on youtube or myspace. thanks in advance!

parting shot: GEORGE, NONE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, TRIVIAL FACTS, AND SIMPLY BIASED OBSERVATIONS - THE TRITE SH!TE DRIVEL YOU KEEP ON POSTING HERE WILL EVER CONVINCE ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS. Just accept the fact that it is what it is and you've fought a good fight and now it's time to retire, find a nice and sturdy support beam, get a strong rope and just leave yourself dangling on the end of it. Again, just some suggestions as to how you can REALLY help the world. Just think: by permanently going mere 6 feet inside the earth, you will be giving so much more back to the world than you are right now.

So, don't dismiss the suicide so easily. At least give it a try, ok? Now, go on have a glass of cyanide and go play in traffic. Thanks, now there's a good lad!

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 I'm wondering if George smiley has any friends. or life for that matter. His pre-occupation with Israeli/Palestinian conflict is beyond obsessive. This is a person who does not focus all his brainpower and much flaunted-about wisdom on other agendas that may be more pressing and perhaps more likely to bear fruit, such as global warming, aids, fighting cancer or other plights plaguing humanity. No, his obsession is with Jews and his self-established duty to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't exist. Ok George we get it. You don't like Jews. You don't want them to have their own land, come to think of it - you wouldn't be too sad to see them all just... disappear. Now that we have established that, would you please JUST F*CKING GO AND HANGYOURSELF OR AT LEAST BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT? that would be really great. please leave a touching emo story on youtube or myspace. thanks in advance! parting shot: GEORGE, NONE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, TRIVIAL FACTS, AND SIMPLY BIASED OBSERVATIONS - THE TRITE SH!TE DRIVEL YOU KEEP ON POSTING HERE WILL EVER CONVINCE ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS. Just accept the fact that it is what it is and you've fought a good fight and now it's time to retire, find a nice and sturdy support beam, get a strong rope and just leave yourself dangling on the end of it. Again, just some suggestions as to how you can REALLY help the world. Just think: by permanently going mere 6 feet inside the earth, you will be giving so much more back to the world than you are right now. So, don't dismiss the suicide so easily. At least give it a try, ok? Now, go on have a glass of cyanide and go play in traffic. Thanks, now there's a good lad!

Seems you can't read the rules can you. Why don't you leave this forum if you can't handle the trite. You DONT have to read what people post here. Insults and recommendations of suicide, beyond being childish, dont contribute anything and are not even amusing. Take your internet persona back to the CORe.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley If that is something the Israelis/Palestinians could agree to then fine, however I suspect the land you'd be swapping would involve large chunks out of the centre of Palestine, serverely disrupting Palestinian life. Yoepus, you're not a religious extremist so why do you feel the need to defend the settlers??

What do you mean religious extremists? Must "settlers" are sub-urban Jerusalemites who have crossed your artificial 1967 borders due to a common phenomena called "population growth" or "urban sprawl".

I by all means would agree with removing desolate and ridiculous settlements in the middle of no where. The truth of the matter is most "settlements" are part of cities now. Its a very small country.

quote:

Would you accept Jerusalem as an international city under the UN?

The only time I'd ever except anything under the UN was if I was a rouge nation trying to build some weapons.

Why on earth would anyone believe the UN could accomplish anything it is tasked with?

quote:

Unfortunately both sides have proved they are not capable of reaching a peace agreement so I'm sorry but it needs to be pressured from outside

I don't think that is true. I think Israel has and is always willing to make hard compromises for a real peace. However there has never been a real peace prospect. Those countries where there was such a prospect now have peace with Israel.

quote:

I agree 100%. Hamas needs to recognise Israel as the first step. But the PLO recognised Israel and look where that got them...

It got them back from exile so they could start up the terror war and propaganda machine, they created a cult state where the PLO leaders are no reviled as some mythical great founders, and they have also greatly enriched themselves through the opprotunity.

Much better then being in some stinky tent in the middle of Africa in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley That whole post is nearly as revelent as your previous one...

Sorry, if that went over your head; can't help you.

Continue with the blinders...

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree IIRC the Arab League (well, some nations in it) said that if EU stopped giving money to PA, they'd step in to fill the gap. Honestly, do you think other richer anti Israel muslim nations would sit idly and let PA rot when PA is the one really doing anything to harm Israel right now?

But the EU has stopped funding the PA (when Hamas got elected) and as far as I am aware there has been a severe lack of funds leading to wages not being paid for all walks of public life en mass, which would suggest the Arab countries have failed to come to the Palestinians aid as you suggest (and don't forget, barring Syria, the rest of the Arab states are on side with Israel so the only other source of funding would come from rogue Saudi Princes, Syria or possibly Iran, and I'm not sure they can match the financial clout of the EU and America)

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry, if that went over your head; can't help you. Continue with the blinders...

Shall we just call it quits?!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus What do you mean religious extremists? Must "settlers" are sub-urban Jerusalemites who have crossed your artificial 1967 borders due to a common phenomena called "population growth" or "urban sprawl". I by all means would agree with removing desolate and ridiculous settlements in the middle of no where. The truth of the matter is most "settlements" are part of cities now. Its a very small country.

Oh please! You and I both know that the only reason there are settlements are for religious reasons - ie the creation of Greater Israel. Most settlers iirc are right wing Americans!

quote:

The only time I'd ever except anything under the UN was if I was a rouge nation trying to build some weapons. Why on earth would anyone believe the UN could accomplish anything it is tasked with?

Lol! Fair enough but it's slightly different to administer a city than what went off in Iraq etc. Don't forget, there is a reason why it is called the United Nations! Because it is made up of, yep, united nations! America rules the roost (plus the other members of the Security Council) and both Israel and Palestine would be heavily involved in the administration.

quote:

I don't think that is true. I think Israel has and is always willing to make hard compromises for a real peace. However there has never been a real peace prospect. Those countries where there was such a prospect now have peace with Israel.

It's swings and roundabouts I guess. Oslo is often viewed as some monumental offer to the Palestinians as is Camp David (2000), yet both fell very short on offering a viable state the Palestinians which is why they failed.

quote:

It got them back from exile so they could start up the terror war and propaganda machine, they created a cult state where the PLO leaders are no reviled as some mythical great founders, and they have also greatly enriched themselves through the opprotunity.

That's one way of looking at it I guess...

quote:

Much better then being in some stinky tent in the middle of Africa in my book.

Yes indeed but I think you know I was refering to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state!

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 I'm wondering if George smiley has any friends. or life for that matter. His pre-occupation with Israeli/Palestinian conflict is beyond obsessive. This is a person who does not focus all his brainpower and much flaunted-about wisdom on other agendas that may be more pressing and perhaps more likely to bear fruit, such as global warming, aids, fighting cancer or other plights plaguing humanity. No, his obsession is with Jews and his self-established duty to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't exist. Ok George we get it. You don't like Jews. You don't want them to have their own land, come to think of it - you wouldn't be too sad to see them all just... disappear. Now that we have established that, would you please JUST F*CKING GO AND HANGYOURSELF OR AT LEAST BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT? that would be really great. please leave a touching emo story on youtube or myspace. thanks in advance! parting shot: GEORGE, NONE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, TRIVIAL FACTS, AND SIMPLY BIASED OBSERVATIONS - THE TRITE SH!TE DRIVEL YOU KEEP ON POSTING HERE WILL EVER CONVINCE ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS. Just accept the fact that it is what it is and you've fought a good fight and now it's time to retire, find a nice and sturdy support beam, get a strong rope and just leave yourself dangling on the end of it. Again, just some suggestions as to how you can REALLY help the world. Just think: by permanently going mere 6 feet inside the earth, you will be giving so much more back to the world than you are right now. So, don't dismiss the suicide so easily. At least give it a try, ok? Now, go on have a glass of cyanide and go play in traffic. Thanks, now there's a good lad!

Fuck me mate you have problems!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus What do you mean religious extremists? Must "settlers" are sub-urban Jerusalemites who have crossed your artificial 1967 borders due to a common phenomena called "population growth" or "urban sprawl". I by all means would agree with removing desolate and ridiculous settlements in the middle of no where. The truth of the matter is most "settlements" are part of cities now. Its a very small country.

1967 borders aren't illegal.
Israel is originated by terror and war crimes

quote:

I don't think that is true. I think Israel has and is always willing to make hard compromises for a real peace. However there has never been a real peace prospect. Those countries where there was such a prospect now have peace with Israel.

-1
There's the arabian peace initiative from 1996,waiting for ur peace.

quote:

It got them back from exile so they could start up the terror war and propaganda machine, they created a cult state where the PLO leaders are no reviled as some mythical great founders, and they have also greatly enriched themselves through the opprotunity. Much better then being in some stinky tent in the middle of Africa in my book.

hmmmmmm.

quote:

Originally posted by M.Johan 1967 borders aren't illegal. Israel is originated by terror and war crimes

I could say similarly:
Israel's borders aren't illegal.
Palestinians originated by terror and war crimes.

Or:
Syria's borders aren't illegal.
Syria originated by terror and war crimes.

Ah why note:
Europe's borders aren't illegal.
Europe originated by terror and war crimes.

This logical fallacy is so exciting I can go on and on... but what's the point, there's no source, no proof, no backing up to your claim...

quote:

-1 There's the arabian peace initiative from 1996,waiting for ur peace.

Which one is that again?

quote:

hmmmmmm.

Actually you are wrong, its quiet a well known fact from the 1890s afterall, that the Jews really are trying to take over the whole world!
source


And just to through this thread back on topic; all this of course justifies brainwashing 5 years old into a cult of death, murder, and destruction. Horray!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus And just to through this thread back on topic; all this of course justifies brainwashing 5 years old into a cult of death, murder, and destruction. Horray!

It would be advantageous for those who wish to justify Israel's policy decisions and actions to explain why 5 year olds are being brainwashed to hate a nation and it's people simply by passing it off as some kind of "natural" hatred, when in actual fact I think everybody deep down knows that the bombs and the death and the disruption to their lives they experience everyday is a more valid explanation...

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