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-- Fierce Gaza fighting sparks fears of civil war
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Originally posted by Magnetonium Grant Palestinian people their independence. Return to 1948 borders. These are main two that are not hard to give.

I agree that this should be done, but this won't solve all of Palestinian problems, until Israel is guaranteed that militant factions won't have control over Palestinian govt. (You can do more things if you're a sovereign nation, even if you aren't liked by anyone)

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On secondary note, on an unrealistical approach in addition to the previous two I stated - Israel should pay reparations for the lands seized and property/goods taken when Palestinian people were forcefully removed, and apologize for the removal of the Palestinians from their lands / other evil things its done between 1947-1967.

You're quite right that this isn't realistic. Imagine the international precedent it would set, not to mention the convoluted process that would be required to access reparation and to whom it should go to.
I don't think Israel would get reparation from Syria and Egypt for 6 days war either.

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And then Israel should not give in to the radicals. So what that sometimes Hamas attacks - sadly, it should turn the other cheek and not retaliate. Jews are very smart, they should have figured it out by now that retaliating only helps the radicals and achieves little if anything for Israel. Plus it doesnt make Israel look better because it merely evens the score - actually, worse - it sometimes annihilates Palestinians making their actions look so like the Gestapo tactics. Instead Israel should use its "connections" all over the world media and show how Hamas and other violate their end of the bargain and embarass the Arab world if that was the case. I would totally jump on Israel's side, and so will the rest of the world. The hatred of Jews, mainly for Israel, will fall off because people will see the good side of Israel, and anti-semitism will decline. Retaliation only brings more hatred, remember.

And how would Israeli govt respond to its own people demanding that something to be done attacks on Israel? Do you keep standing still when you're keep getting slapped?
Not responding in some way would bring fall to any govt when its people are being killed off.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Blind faith in a myth? Is that what you think they were voting for? What is it with people on this forum and their blind, prejudiced and lazy assumptions everytime about cultures they simply do not understand? It's like talking to children! They voted for Hamas not because they thought God would save them or God would build them a hospital. That is not what Political Islam is about. It is about the reforms you mentioned and policies for the social good. It would be useful for you to think about Political Islam in the same way you think about the American regime. They are deeply religious and base a hell of a lot of policy decisions on Christianity. Political Islam is the same - that applying the laws of Islam will help society better itself. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what the Taliban or al-Qaida want, and Hamas in no way shape or form is as extreme as those two (neither are the Islamists in Iraq apart from the al-Qaida one). Nobody would say George Bush is an extremist and follows the Christian version of al-Qaida's ideology (ok, so they would, but you know what I mean!) but it is religious none the less and he likes his wars as much as the next "extremist". Don't fall into the trap that just because somebody is fighting a war and uses religion as a rallying cry or justification, that they all fall into the same category as al-Qaida. And certainly don't fall into the trap that everyone that lives in that region is an al-Qaida in waiting. FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

Good post

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Originally posted by George Smiley Not sure what you are getting at here? And you need to be extremely careful when you brand about phrases like "people that normally defend the Palestinians" because I get the impression you are trying to portray certain people on this forum as supporting terrorism against Israel and I am not aware of anyone on here that does...

Not so much as 'supporting terrorism' as much as just simply being appologists for anything that happens from the Palestinian region with Israel involved...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Not so much as 'supporting terrorism' as much as just simply being appologists for anything that happens from the Palestinian region with Israel involved...

You need to open your eyes and distinguish between "apologist" and "explanation" (unless of course, you don't like the explanation and want to portray it in a certain light? hence all the "you hate Jews" I see every day on this forum - it's a poor attempt at an argument)

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Originally posted by George Smiley You need to open your eyes and distinguish between "apologist" and "explanation" (unless of course, you don't like the explanation and want to portray it in a certain light? hence all the "you hate Jews" I see every day on this forum - it's a poor attempt at an argument)

I see where you're going, but I'm not there

I think you're making it a little more complicated than what was intended...

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Originally posted by Purple Israel has done a lot by building the WALL all around and severely limiting mobility of UN peace keep tanks or troops which could have been stationed otherwise. Israel has made Palestine a living zoo for people from outside, who watch caged people fighting with each other and killing. And Israel watches them doing it Gladiator movie style. First build the wall, let them fight and we will sit on king's throne and watch the drama. And if anyone from outside tries to intervene we have 'THE WALL' or 'the arena' and the power bestowed upon us by USA to take care of it.

there is no "WALL" around Gaza, stupid.

there are checkpoints and barbed wire, even along Egypt, but there is no WALL.

please get f**ked.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Grant Palestinian people their independence. Return to 1948 borders. These are main two that are not hard to give. On secondary note, on an unrealistical approach in addition to the previous two I stated - Israel should pay reparations for the lands seized and property/goods taken when Palestinian people were forcefully removed, and apologize for the removal of the Palestinians from their lands / other evil things its done between 1947-1967. And then Israel should not give in to the radicals. So what that sometimes Hamas attacks - sadly, it should turn the other cheek and not retaliate. Jews are very smart, they should have figured it out by now that retaliating only helps the radicals and achieves little if anything for Israel. Plus it doesnt make Israel look better because it merely evens the score - actually, worse - it sometimes annihilates Palestinians making their actions look so like the Gestapo tactics. Instead Israel should use its "connections" all over the world media and show how Hamas and other violate their end of the bargain and embarass the Arab world if that was the case. I would totally jump on Israel's side, and so will the rest of the world. The hatred of Jews, mainly for Israel, will fall off because people will see the good side of Israel, and anti-semitism will decline. Retaliation only brings more hatred, remember.

I too have an unrealistic pathetic dream:

Why don't all Arab countries offer refuge and shelter to the poor, poor Palestinians? Israel lets them leave, no one is forcing them to stay.

Why do the Arab countries not encourage the poor innocent Palestinians to get out of that mess and to take up normal lifes in peace and quiet in a part of their societies?

Did not Europe and USA rescue Jews from the dredge of their internment camps? How many Sudanese/Moroccans are in France? How many Libyans in Italy? How many Vietnamese in the USA?

I think it is perhaps the greatest shame and deciet done in the Arab world to force their brethren to stay put in such an anarchic and chaotic situation.

If they offer a way out perhpas people will choose a life of normalcy over internal terrorism and external war?

And then with less people in one place maybe opinions will cool down and a realistic peace might actually exist in 20-30 years.


...

But of course, such is an unrealistic dream

Yoepus, you became soft with time.

Is anyone else concerned how Abbas dismissed the govt and formed a new one?

Hamas is full of shitheads, but they are still legitimately elected by the Palestinian people...

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I too have an unrealistic pathetic dream: Why don't all Arab countries offer refuge and shelter to the poor, poor Palestinians? Israel lets them leave, no one is forcing them to stay. Why do the Arab countries not encourage the poor innocent Palestinians to get out of that mess and to take up normal lifes in peace and quiet in a part of their societies? Did not Europe and USA rescue Jews from the dredge of their internment camps? How many Sudanese/Moroccans are in France? How many Libyans in Italy? How many Vietnamese in the USA? I think it is perhaps the greatest shame and deciet done in the Arab world to force their brethren to stay put in such an anarchic and chaotic situation. If they offer a way out perhpas people will choose a life of normalcy over internal terrorism and external war? And then with less people in one place maybe opinions will cool down and a realistic peace might actually exist in 20-30 years. ... But of course, such is an unrealistic dream

So, to sum: Yoepus has a dream of an ethnically cleansed Palestine

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Originally posted by EvilTree Is anyone else concerned how Abbas dismissed the govt and formed a new one? Hamas is full of shitheads, but they are still legitimately elected by the Palestinian people...

the "shithead" part though...really can't be overlooked.

have you heard what they have done to their Fatah counterparts in Gaza? beyond any modicum of modern diplomacy or partisanship, it's animalistic.

Fatah, with all their faults, was as legitimately elected.

this was a powerplay, pure and simple. savage and illegal. the Palestinian cause because of it has been put back decades literally.

Israel is smart to prepare now. if anyone faults them for that now...theres just no excuse for their stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley So, to sum: Yoepus has a dream of an ethnically cleansed Palestine

he can't be for a two state solution? free of Arab prejudice? free of terror?

Hamas can rot in the Gaza. Too bad the people have to be dragged along with them...

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX she pointed me to http://www.faithfreedom.org it is ran by ex Muslims and contains many articles on the growing movement of apostates that have left slam due to the radical teachings.... very interesting web site to say the least... but it is blocked by many countries, especially Islamic Ran countries. I will not give her name or any more details out of respect for her since many in her family hate her with such a passion that even her own brother tried to kill her when they learned of her leaving the faith. that web site is pretty scary....in that it offers a POV of Islam from former Muslims and they seem to know their stuff. The guy even has debates against active Mullahs and even has a reward for any Muslim that can prove that what they state on the site about Mohamed and his teachings are wrong.

Come on LazFX

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the good christian people took on the bad christians. Why can't the muslims do the same? Could it be that all muslims want the same that these coward focks want??

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and instead of calling out the radicals that preach hate, the muslims seem to embrace it by not speaking out and taking thier religion back from the crazy radical leaders that are like a cancer and need to be cut out.. nothing to see here... move along, move along

Are u sure??
that these're the real facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Fatah, with all their faults, was as legitimately elected.

As opposed to Hamas?

And I still don't know why everyone is suddenly hailing Fatah as the good guys! IMO I'd prefer them to Hamas any day but that's me and my opinion, the right-wing people on here seem to hold all the Palestinians (groups) in the same esteam. But now everybody loves Fatah and they are brilliant!

Well mark my words - if this plays out like Israel hopes/has planned it will, and Gaza becomes seperate from the West Bank under Hamas control, then Israel will suffer terribly at the hands of Fatah and their affiliated groups when Israel begins to put into action it's plans to annex large swathes of land in the West Bank. If Fatah cannot control Gaza, then they will want all of West Bank and if Israel is not prepared to withdraw then there will be a third intifada even more bloody than the previous ones because now Fatah will be fighting for it's survival

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo he can't be for a two state solution? free of Arab prejudice? free of terror?

He says he has a "dream" where, to paraphrase, he says he would like to see all the Palestinians fuck off to the Arab states so Israel can annex the West Bank.

I actually didn't think Yoepus thought like that being a member of TranceAddict an all, but his time in America seems to have radicalised him into supporting the Settlers and the establishment of some kind of Greater Israel. It's a good job he isn't actually American or he'd be sent off to do his "national service" manning the Settlements for a year before he came back to America!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I too have an unrealistic pathetic dream: Why don't all Arab countries offer refuge and shelter to the poor, poor Palestinians? Israel lets them leave, no one is forcing them to stay. Why do the Arab countries not encourage the poor innocent Palestinians to get out of that mess and to take up normal lifes in peace and quiet in a part of their societies? Did not Europe and USA rescue Jews from the dredge of their internment camps? How many Sudanese/Moroccans are in France? How many Libyans in Italy? How many Vietnamese in the USA? I think it is perhaps the greatest shame and deciet done in the Arab world to force their brethren to stay put in such an anarchic and chaotic situation. If they offer a way out perhpas people will choose a life of normalcy over internal terrorism and external war? And then with less people in one place maybe opinions will cool down and a realistic peace might actually exist in 20-30 years. ... But of course, such is an unrealistic dream

You dont ever get it. Morrocans and Algerians in France CHOSE to come to France, and they dont want to come back. They emigrated to France, not as refugees for most part. My family didnt come to Canada because of some ethnic conflict. But Palestinians that are displaced were forced out by the war, and there's no place for them in overpopulated neighbouring Arab lands that have plenty of problems of their own. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt are not oil/gas rich and powerful countries. In Saudi Arabia there is actually a strong and powerful Palestinian minority because their country is in well being. BUT NO COUNTRY WOULD WANT TO HAVE MANY THOUSANDS OF REFUGEES CROWDING AROUND FIGHTING FOR YOUR SPACE, JOBS, GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE, LAND. You cant compare impoverished countries of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc. to the likes of France, US, UK, Canada where there wouldn't be refugee camps because these countries would never allow such an influx of refugees. The ones who get through for most part have money, connections, education i.e. they have purpose and determination. The ones (the majority of all refugees) who are left in the Middle East are poor, uneducated people whom nobody wants. They just want to go home and start their cattle businesses and live quiet farm lives or whatever. Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. etc. have millions of their own poor people to take care of first. Why should they pay for the ethnic "cleansing" of Palestinian people by Israel??? WHY? Why are Arabs always at fault? Its so blatantly clear that it wasnt the Arab states, but Israeli armies who forced out Palestinians as they occupied more and more land.

You always conveniently like to blame Arabs, everyone is at fault but not Israel or its allies. Last time I checked it wasnt Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia that forced these Palestinians out of their homes. As Israeli armies advanced, they evicted and forced out most Palestinians in its way. Othwerise Palestinians, unarmed, would have stayed in their villages, homes. Gaza, controlled by Egypt, didnt force out Palestinian people. Jordan, in West Bank, didnt force out Palestinians. This is a basic mentality - as Israelis advanced, they chanted "ITS OUR LAND NOW, BITCHES!!!" and so Palestinians fled, while Egypt and Jordan and others fought against that, and somehow Palestinians in West Bank and Jordan didnt run towards advancing Israeli armies.

You knew it was just a matter of time...

http://www.reuters.com/article/topN...760465320070617

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono You knew it was just a matter of time... http://www.reuters.com/article/topN...760465320070617

Get yer own fuckin' thread!

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Originally posted by George Smiley As opposed to Hamas? And I still don't know why everyone is suddenly hailing Fatah as the good guys! IMO I'd prefer them to Hamas any day but that's me and my opinion, the right-wing people on here seem to hold all the Palestinians (groups) in the same esteam. But now everybody loves Fatah and they are brilliant! Well mark my words - if this plays out like Israel hopes/has planned it will, and Gaza becomes seperate from the West Bank under Hamas control, then Israel will suffer terribly at the hands of Fatah and their affiliated groups when Israel begins to put into action it's plans to annex large swathes of land in the West Bank. If Fatah cannot control Gaza, then they will want all of West Bank and if Israel is not prepared to withdraw then there will be a third intifada even more bloody than the previous ones because now Fatah will be fighting for it's survival

Geez great job twisting my words! You are right in line to get that promotion to professional Palestinian apologist ASAP. Don't let those pesky things called facts stand in your way!


All I was saying is that if Palestinian society could blow off some of the steam from its kettle it'd better for everyone. Right now the Palestinians don't have the option to migrate because Arab countries make it very, very hard for them. Because of their humanitarian situation you would think they would make it very very easy for them.

All I am saying is if they did make it easy for them things would be better. (Obviously Palestinians would remain, but it would make a two state solution much more viable).

Just to point out in contrast: Israel accepts Jews from across the world for refuge anytime they feel threatened.

Saving thousands from Ethopia, Iran, Iraq, and France

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Get yer own fuckin' thread!

Sorry, I didn't want to start Israel/Palestine thread #4,586,723.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Geez great job twisting my words! You are right in line to get that promotion to professional Palestinian apologist ASAP. Don't let those pesky things called facts stand in your way! All I was saying is that if Palestinian society could blow off some of the steam from its kettle it'd better for everyone. Right now the Palestinians don't have the option to migrate because Arab countries make it very, very hard for them. Because of their humanitarian situation you would think they would make it very very easy for them. All I am saying is if they did make it easy for them things would be better. (Obviously Palestinians would remain, but it would make a two state solution much more viable). Just to point out in contrast: Israel accepts Jews from across the world for refuge anytime they feel threatened. Saving thousands from Ethopia, Iran, Iraq, and France

I assume you were replying to the post below the one you quoted?

Well, I've seen many posts of yours recently defending the Settlers, claiming they are not in fact religious fundamentalists but just normal people going about there normal life looking for some space to live in - well if that is the case, if I moved to another country I would have to live by their laws, so I assume you have no problem forcing the Settlers to live under Palestinian law? And if they have a problem with that, then they should move back to Israel/America no?

The thing is, I get the impression you have some kind of personal attachment to the Settlers. As if you agree with why they are there (and hence your silly arguments as to why they should be allowed to remain there, twisting the situation to make your arguments appeal to an unreligious, enlightened audience, whilst knowing full well they are there for fundamental religious reasons)

The Settlers are the single biggest impediment to peace in Palestine. They have no right to be where they are and should leave immediately - and the IDF should remove them by force if necessary of leave them to the mercy of the Palestinians. You don't owe them shit if you don't have the same beliefs as you. They are using their power in the Knesset to maintain the status quo, which means putting your country-folk in an unnecessarily dangerous situation. They want to annex the West Bank completely and failing that, they want to annex as much as possible and your government is powerless to do anything about it due to their strength in Parliament (and probably because of strong backing from extremists in America). They play on your emotions because you are Jewish and Israeli and they somehow want you to think you have some kind of attachment to them - well you don't.

You're a member of a Trance Music website! You go clubbing, you're at univeristy and have probably taken drugs, got blind drunk and slept with random girls. You are nothing like them! Just because of your religion and nationality means shit. Thats like saying everyone in the UK who was born to Muslim parents and has brown skin is an extremist like bin Laden. Well it aint true.

Fuck the Settlers man!

They bring no benefits to normal Israelis whatsoever. They are an evil bunch of rightwing thugs. They are detrimental to Israel's peace and security. Israel's army spends most of it's time protecting the Settlements and they have no strategic purpose any more whatsoever - they are there for one thing only - Eretz Israel - and if you do not agree with that then ffs oppose the Settlers

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono You knew it was just a matter of time... http://www.reuters.com/article/topN...760465320070617

OMG OMG some guy fired a missile inside ISRAEL!! No one was hurt but next time it might cause an elbow injury. They will nuke the fuck out of Lebanon. Prevention is better than cure.

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Originally posted by Purple OMG OMG some guy fired a missile inside ISRAEL!! No one was hurt but next time it might cause an elbow injury. They will nuke the fuck out of Lebanon. Prevention is better than cure.

You're right, people shooting rockets into populated centers is no cause for alarm...unless you live there.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley As opposed to Hamas?

well, yeah.

if EvilTree is gonna make the argument that supposedly (and i use that in the loosest of terms) legitimize what Hamas has done by syaing they were "legitamately elected" tehn it stands to reason that opposed to Hamas, the members/representatives of Fatah, in a Parliamentary Government, were as legitamately elected. thats all.

it's really not a right/left issue as far as EvilTree's argument is concerned.

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