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Originally posted by ravr Canada should not be in the business of nation building. It has never worked, it will never work.

Really?

You did know that the Marshall Plan after WW2 was essentially rebuilding of Western Europe?

Not to mention Canada has funded similar plan for Asia during the 50s?

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Oh yes, the old, 'we must stay the course', with no real plan on our part.

Actually. Canada does have a plan.

It's called removing Taliban as a threat to security of Afghanistan and its people. It's called helping Afghan govt build and train for the capability and infrastructure to provide good government for Afghan people.

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You did know that the Marshall Plan after WW2 was essentially rebuilding of Western Europe?

Oh, were the French and Italians cutting the heads of Americans that were giving them food? lol.

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Actually. Canada does have a plan. It's called removing Taliban as a threat to security of Afghanistan and its people. It's

These 'people' don't want you there... You are seen as an occupying Christian nation.

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Originally posted by ravr Oh, were the French and Italians cutting the heads of Americans that were giving them food? lol.

As if the extremist minority speak for the majority of the Afghan people

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These 'people' don't want you there... You are seen as an occupying Christian nation.

Again, you're listening to the minority talking.

I don't understand this. NATO and NGO groups are trying to help to better the lives of avg Afghan people. Then there are people like Taliban who are doing everything they can to make lives worse for avg Afghan people.

Would you slap away the helping hands when you need help? That's just silly

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Originally posted by DigiNut Great idea - we'll just wait for them to come here.

lol are you fuckin serious? like is that really what you believe? stop living in fear kid go and live a little.

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Originally posted by ravr These 'people' don't want you there... You are seen as an occupying Christian nation.

you seem to have afghanistan confused with iraq.

FUCK TORONTO..

and to me it doesnt matter what the prices are.. i still ride the ttc for a dollar..


how in the hell did we have a shot at hosting the olympics..??

If it were up to me, id send the toronto police in to deal with the native blockades...........chilean styles...

Responding to the parts that EvilTree didn't already respond to...

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Originally posted by ravr Oh Please, the conservatives specifically targeted teachers and health care workers.... As result, we got major cuts to the health system and every 2 months or so threat of teacher strikes/ class disruptions, loss of many educators/ over crowed classes. Absoulty disgusting.

If you're talking about Mike Harris, then yes, it disrupted service for a while, and by the time the Conservatives were on their way out, things had vastly improved. There is enormous waste in the education and health care systems, and the fact that they've returned to their previous levels of service (or better) with less funding should prove it. Harris ran those systems like a proper CEO would run a business; McGuinty runs them like typical unaccountable government bureaucracies.

It always takes 3-4 years after a change in government policy for those policies to take effect. If the changes are particularly significant (like funding cuts), you will always have some level of temporary "anarchy". Unfortunately, humans aren't pre-programmed to think about long-term effects, and it's clear that you're one of the ones who doesn't think past stage one. That is exactly how politicians, including the current provincial Liberals, are able to manipulate people so easily. Make a lot of short-term campaign promises, break them, wait for people's short-term memories and fleeting media-addicted attention spans to take over, and make the same promises again just before the next election.

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You can fight nations, but the war on 'terrorism' is unwinnable just like the war on drugs.

Here, believe it or not, you're actually right. But as you so quaintly put it a few lines down, just because 'Dubya' says something does not necessarily mean it's accurate. We aren't really fighting a "war on terror", just a war on certain terrorism-supporting nations and specific terrorist networks. It's really a war on Islamofascism, but that obviously doesn't sound as catchy as a war on terror. That's politicking for you - I think they should call it by its real name.

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If you have no heard, in a recenty study, Al Quida has gotten stronger ever since the war on "terror" and they are actually recuriting people to carry out missions in the US.

In case you hadn't noticed, they'd been recruiting people to carry out missions in the US since before the Cold War, so this isn't actually news. As for them being stronger since the war started, that is completely false. I very much doubt that you could find even a single report that suggests they're stronger, but even if you could, it would be in direct conflict with the hundreds of reports that they are much, much weaker.

Of course, you might be confusing Al Qaeda with the various Shiite terrorist groups backed by Iran. Some of them have gotten stronger for reasons completely unrelated to the Iraqi/Afghanistan occupations (i.e. the constant stream of funding from Iran, and certain military bungles by Israel). Some of the Shiite groups in Iraq are also a little stronger because the Sunni groups who they're always fighting with are weaker, but that's in constant flux anyway.


Now - do you have any points to raise which haven't already been beaten to death, or are we just going to get more of your dumbass liberal one-liners and Democratic talking points?

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Harris ran those systems like a proper CEO would run a business; McGuinty runs them like typical unaccountable government bureaucracies.

And what is so good about that? Are you telling me you actually approve the govt running our PUBLIC education, health care, etc like a business? Go watch Sicko, and tell me if you want something like the US health care system in our country... get back to me then.

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Here, believe it or not, you're actually right.

I know I am.

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We aren't really fighting a "war on terror", just a war on certain terrorism-supporting nations and specific terrorist networks.

The US is fighting organizations which do not have central networks... as for fighting 'terrorism-'supporting nations', oh ya, brilliant, let us invade countries like Syria, topple their government, occupy the country, and than actually have insurgents fighting the occupying force and have terrorist networks come in and support thier cause... Iraq II

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As for them being stronger since the war started, that is completely false. I very much doubt that you could find even a single report that suggests they're stronger,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7071102443.html

The report is complied by US intelligence...

You keep invading countries, support networks for terrorists always grows... But I guess such analyzes does not go well with your dumbass conservative views...

Your position reminds of these retarded college kids:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/generation-chickenhawk-t_b_56676.html

Tell me why are you not serving in Afghanistan and helping our boys? Do you also have a medical reason? : D



I have derailed this thread enough. I am done

if anyone is curious...

quote:

The TTC has been asked by the City Manager to trim $30-million from its operating deficit in 2007, and at least $100-million from 2008 to flatline the subsidy at the 2007 level. Various proposals were put forward (you can see the full list in the presentation), but most of these cannot kick in until 2008. On the table for 2007 were: 1.Cut poorly performing routes ($1 million) 2.Cancel service improvements planned for September through December ($2-3 million) 3.Defer opening of Mt. Dennis Garage ($2 million) 4.Miscellaneous cost containment (travel, etc.) (amount to be determined) 5.A fare increase of 10-25 cents effective September 1 ($3-15 million) Of these, the Commission approved items 2-4. For 2008, the list is much longer: 1.Cut poorly performing routes ($10 million) 2.Cancel 2007 service improvements ($20 million) 3.Cancel 2008 service improvements ($20 million) 4.Roll back 2007 off-peak service improvements ($13 million) 5.Close Sheppard Subway ($10 million, to be verified) 6.Defer opening of Mt. Dennis Garage ($7 million) 7.Miscellaneous cost containment (TBD) 8.2007 fare increase (full year effect) ($20-45 million)

In the end, the Commission approved the following motions:

-Service additions planned for fall 2007 are deferred indefinitely
-Opening of Mt. Dennis garage is deferred until January 2008 or later
-The planned August 29 meeting of the TTC is cancelled, to be replaced by one on September 12
-Staff are to report back on all fare increase options including those required to cover all reductions requested by the City Manager
-Staff in consultation with Chair Giambrone, Vice-Chair Mihevc and local Councillors are to conduct a round of community consultation regarding options for transit service and fares
-Staff are to report back on options for closing the Sheppard Subway
-Staff are to report back on a strategy to minimize layoffs through attrition, and the Commission should communicate to staff that this is the preferred option should it be required
-Staff are to advise the City Maager of the options identfied for savings and provide updates as information is available
-Using 1996 as a base year, staff are to report back on all new positions added (see comment below)
-Staff are to report on the environmental impact of service reductions and decrease in transit usage
-Staff are to report on the impact of postponing construction of the Spadina Subway extension
-All cost containment options described in the staff presentation are to be implemented

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut In case you hadn't noticed, they'd been recruiting people to carry out missions in the US since before the Cold War, so this isn't actually news.

That statement is definitely news to me. Elaborate please??

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Originally posted by ravr Go watch Sicko

Ah, so you're a Michael Moore fan. Yep, we're done here.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH That statement is definitely news to me. Elaborate please??

Here's a quick fact sheet for you:

http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm

Terrorist acts against the USA (both in the USA and against Americans abroad) have been making headlines for a while. They did heat up somewhat in the mid-90's during the Clinton administration, not that he caused them, just responded very weakly to them, and cut the intelligence budget which made them harder to prevent.

Here's a much more scholarly article, written in 1996, long before 9/11 or the so-called war on terror, which talks about the history of domestic terrorism in the USA, including religiously-motivated terrorism:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/presley.htm

See if that interests you. There's plenty more where that came from.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Here's a quick fact sheet for you: http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm Terrorist acts against the USA (both in the USA and against Americans abroad) have been making headlines for a while. They did heat up somewhat in the mid-90's during the Clinton administration, not that he caused them, just responded very weakly to them, and cut the intelligence budget which made them harder to prevent. Here's a much more scholarly article, written in 1996, long before 9/11 or the so-called war on terror, which talks about the history of domestic terrorism in the USA, including religiously-motivated terrorism: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/presley.htm See if that interests you. There's plenty more where that came from.

I'm taking a course on Terrorism right now so this'll definitely come in handy for my essay. Thanks. When you said "they" I thought you meant that Al Qaeda (who didn't exist before the Cold War) was recruiting since before the Cold War. But yes, I agree, there has been anti-US, religious based terrorism for a long long time.

A course on terrorism eh... I'm scared to ask what you're being taught.

For the record, no, of course not all of the terrorism throughout the past few decades has been Al-Qaeda. If that was somehow implied, then consider it my error. A lot of it has been by Shiite or Sunni Muslims though. Al-Qaeda is probably the biggest terrorist group operating internationally today (I don't have a source for that), though there are many others like Hezbollah, Al-Aqsa, and so on.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut A course on terrorism eh... I'm scared to ask what you're being taught. For the record, no, of course not all of the terrorism throughout the past few decades has been Al-Qaeda. If that was somehow implied, then consider it my error. A lot of it has been by Shiite or Sunni Muslims though. Al-Qaeda is probably the biggest terrorist group operating internationally today (I don't have a source for that), though there are many others like Hezbollah, Al-Aqsa, and so on.

I think Hezbollah would be biggest, but then again, no source. Just opinion I guess.

ha, alqaeda, terrorism....

watch this movie before you talk, part 2 and 3, part 1 talks about religion


Zeitgeist Movie on Google Video

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]



sources:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm

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Originally posted by DigiNut Ah, so you're a Michael Moore fan. Yep, we're done here.

Great rebuttal, Einstein!

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Originally posted by ravr Great rebuttal, Einstein!

While I kind of respect Michael Moore for his intent to show things to people from a different perspective, he has a tendencey to manipulate and twist facts around to fit his point. I'd by no means take his movies as the ultimate truth or even as a great source of information.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH While I kind of respect Michael Moore for his intent to show things to people from a different perspective, he has a tendencey to manipulate and twist facts around to fit his point. I'd by no means take his movies as the ultimate truth or even as a great source of information.

Anyone who takes Moore's opinions at face value as truth, or consider him an expert on anything is quite silly.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I think Hezbollah would be biggest, but then again, no source. Just opinion I guess.

You could very well be right. I don't think they've ever been caught operating *in* the USA or Canada, but in the middle east they're huge. They're essentially the de facto government in Syria and Lebanon.

For anybody who likes conspiracy theories about Illuminati and other secretive organizations in the upper echelons of government, look no further than the Hezb, who comprise - I think I remember reading this - 60-70% of the ruling political parties in those states?

Oh, and as for Moore - there is just one thing I respect about him, which is that he openly admits that his films are biased and says straight up that there should be Conservative filmmakers doing the same thing (not that Hollyweird would ever give them a budget or even airtime).

Michael Moore is not really a bad guy, as long as you view him in the light of an entertainer rather than a researcher. He knows his audience well and he plays to that. Using him as a reference in a debate, though, makes about as much sense as using Rush Limbaugh as a reference.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH While I kind of respect Michael Moore for his intent to show things to people from a different perspective, he has a tendencey to manipulate and twist facts around to fit his point. I'd by no means take his movies as the ultimate truth or even as a great source of information.

Well, I think he presents information in a great format... Although in his Fahrenheit 9/11 he manipulated some opinions and NOT so much FACTS to fit his view points...

I would say 100 % of the information he presents in Sicko is correct.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta contented that Moore was playing loosey with some of his facts, and well Dr Gupta got BURNED big time.

Dr. Gupta apologised

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070719/moore_fued_cnn070719/20070719?hub=Entertainment

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvlGRfozss

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Originally posted by ravr I would say 100 % of the information he presents in Sicko is correct.

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CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta contented that Moore was playing loosey with some of his facts, and well Dr Gupta got BURNED big time. Dr. Gupta apologised http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...b=Entertainment The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvlGRfozss

I don't understand how you could watch that clip and conclude that Moore came across better than Gupta. Dr. Gupta "apologized" for a simple misquotation or transcription error. The rest of that clip was Gupta talking in detail about which sources were being used, and Moore interrupting him every 10 seconds to go "YOU'RE WRONG! YOU LIED!"

Moore looked like a total tool in that debate, while Dr. Gupta was being patient and trying very hard to keep things calm and find some level of consensus. Great job, Mike - now I really want to check out your stupid website!

But then that's typical, isn't it. People who don't stoop to the level of shouting down their opponents get "burned".

On a side note - how can somebody "manipulate" opinions?

quote:

Originally posted by ravr Well, I think he presents information in a great format... Although in his Fahrenheit 9/11 he manipulated some opinions and NOT so much FACTS to fit his view points... I would say 100 % of the information he presents in Sicko is correct. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta contented that Moore was playing loosey with some of his facts, and well Dr Gupta got BURNED big time. Dr. Gupta apologised http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...b=Entertainment The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvlGRfozss

Thanks for the vid.

People wonder why Moor is so pissed at CNN,and the reason is that they have always twisted and manipulated his work on both the 911 movie and Sicko.He has every right to be mad at them.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut But then that's typical, isn't it. People who don't stoop to the level of shouting down their opponents get "burned".

I wonder what your take on Bill O'Reilly is? nobody can ever have a conversation with that lunatic on any subject.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I don't understand how you could watch that clip and conclude that Moore came across better than Gupta. Dr. Gupta "apologized" for a simple misquotation or transcription error. The rest of that clip was Gupta talking in detail about which sources were being used, and Moore interrupting him every 10 seconds to go "YOU'RE WRONG! YOU LIED!" Moore looked like a total tool in that debate, while Dr. Gupta was being patient and trying very hard to keep things calm and find some level of consensus. Great job, Mike - now I really want to check out your stupid website! But then that's typical, isn't it. People who don't stoop to the level of shouting down their opponents get "burned". On a side note - how can somebody "manipulate" opinions?

Moore gave Gupta his facts, Gupta used outdated facts from WHO, misquoted Moore and used camera trickery to hide one of the facts Moore presented in his movie(Cuba's position in the health index). If somebody, mirepresented what I said and called me a liar on national TV, of course I would be pissed.

Moreover:

...Yet on "Larry King Live" Gupta admitted the error was his, not Moore's. "Michael correctly said $251 in the movie."

Gupta also made a correction statement on July 11.

"To be clear, I got a number wrong in my original report, substituting the number 25, instead of 251."


credentials of "Sicko" healthcare expert Paul Keckley. Gupta asserted that Keckley, whom he had quoted criticizing the national healthcare systems of France, Canada and Cuba during his fact check piece, was only affiliated with Vanderbilt University. It was his response to Moore's claim the Keckley was "a person from a think tank group who is a big Republican contributor."

Gupta's fact check piece listed Keckley as a "Deloitte Healthcare Expert." Yet further checking revealed Keckley had, indeed, served on the faculty of Vanderbilt University. He is also the executive director of the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions.

Moore must have been beaming as he read CNN's apology: "Moore is correct. Paul Keckley left Vanderbilt in late 2006."


In the end peace pipes have been smoked and Moore gets the last word.

"I do feel kinda bad taking it all out on Wolf Blitzer," Moore admits. "It's not like he's the official representative of the mainstream media. I mean he's from Buffalo, for crying out loud!"

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