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-- The trance formula
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quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I'm trying to produce a bit myself, and I honestly can't see how it would be enjoyable to craft ten different versions of the same ten or so sounds ("aah" choir, saw pad, saw lead, etc.) and use them in the exact same kind of song structure again and again. Have you ever tried to produce or do anything artistic? If so, do you understand how somebody could enjoy doing that?

because it sounds nice to them?

i've steered myself into a similar trap in the past, making alot of tunes in a pretty similar style. basically i'd say the reason for that is that often when i've tried to do things differently, i haven't *felt* the track as much.. and would end up thinking "that kick needs more drive", "that bassline needs to be fuller", "that breakdown needs to be more like that other track i did..." and i'd end up not being able to enjoy it until i made the adjustments, despite the end product being less original

i don't completely disagree with the point you're trying to make, just giving a view from the other side of the fence. i also think that stuff can have soul despite being formulaic

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J because nobody outside of Holland gives a fuck about epic trance in the real world anymore-

and this is ass, too. i can tell you don't frequent clubs much (and yeah i was already aware of this)

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra and this is ass, too. i can tell you don't frequent clubs much (and yeah i was already aware of this)

You weren't aware of jack shit, because I go out regularly every Thursday. Don't make stupid assumptions on zero evidence- you'll look like a fuck up.

And it isn't "ass". It's an exaggeration, admittedly, but compared to a few years ago, the number of regular trance nights is extremely low. Before it burned down, even Crasher were playing house more than trance. I just took a scan at the club listings in the latest Mixmag and in the first 20 nights, 2 were trance. In real, physical clubs it's practically a niche genre now, which doesn't strike with the continued flow of new listeners you see on the Internet, hence my point.

i have to say that there is some value for one producer to stick to his own style, because every time you improve it or create another facet of the idea at large until you make that one track that just nails the concept that's been in his head so long

i know in the visual arts and architecture that a series of pieces with the same language eventually leads to a nice understanding of the idea

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby lol, good thing you decided to get into trance and not classical... you'd get bored with the same old "10" instruments and hate on the whole genre. damn violins always being used for emotional tribulation...

Apples and oranges. The main area for innovation and achievement in classical music is melodic / harmonic ideas, so that's what I'd be concentrating on doing if I were writing classical. 99.9% of dance music doesn't do anything innovative as far as harmony and melody, it just takes the principles already well-established by generations of pop music. This is for good reason, since if it tried to do what classical music does with tonality people would perceive it as dissonant, complicated, or weird and wouldn't want to dance to it.

I love classical music, by the way, but I don't expect the same things from it that I'd expect from electronic music, like new timbres / effects not possible with acoustic instruments. I don't consider one or the other type of music "better," they're just typically a lot different in what they're trying to achieve.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You weren't aware of jack shit, because I go out regularly every Thursday. Don't make stupid assumptions on zero evidence- you'll look like a fuck up.

sorry, i meant trance clubs. fuck-up guilty as charged.. it was late last night & i was slightly wired; i missed out an operative word & didn't think to proof-read.

obviously trance is niche when compared to house/electro & various kinds of mainstream music here in the UK, but it's far from a dying scene; as anyone from the global gathering main tent this year or one of the 3000+ crammed into gatecrasher for pvd's last 6hr set will tell you. the sheer amount of people i've met through clubbing that still go wild for melodic/uplifting stuff is as good a sign for me that it still plays a role, nevermind mixmag listings or anything like that

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra obviously trance is niche when compared to house/electro & various kinds of mainstream music here in the UK, but it's far from a dying scene; as anyone from the global gathering main tent this year or one of the 3000+ crammed into gatecrasher for pvd's last 6hr set will tell you. the sheer amount of people i've met through clubbing that still go wild for melodic/uplifting stuff is as good a sign for me that it still plays a role, nevermind mixmag listings or anything like that

Yeah, but it wasn't a niche a few years ago. It was the mainstream. Now it isn't. The thing I'm describing (desire to be imitated by new musicians, constant influx of new listeners) are only really evident in any numbers in genres where mainstream success provides recruitment ground.

It was a relative statement.

Re: Re: Re: The trance formula

quote:

Originally posted by AustralianGQ touche..... the trance hate bandwagon is pretty full and pretty old now, dont ya think? if u dont like it, why are u on this site? to talk shit and ramble on b/c it makes u feel better atnight? not everyone is gonna like the same things u do, what u may dislike, ppl may really love.

the "if you don't like it don't listen to it"-bandwagon is pretty loaded as well. Get off you fuckin cow!!

I just always find it funny when people complain about other people complaining.

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra obviously trance is niche when compared to house/electro & various kinds of mainstream music here in the UK, but it's far from a dying scene; as anyone from the global gathering main tent this year or one of the 3000+ crammed into gatecrasher for pvd's last 6hr set will tell you. the sheer amount of people i've met through clubbing that still go wild for melodic/uplifting stuff is as good a sign for me that it still plays a role, nevermind mixmag listings or anything like that

How are these parties for thousands of people an indication of genre's good health, though? I always thought any genre needs to have a proper underground background to be 'alive'. There have to be smaller club nights where people go and know something about what they're gonna hear; these huge festivals are usually full of people who couldn't tell a difference between trance and techno.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews How are these parties for thousands of people an indication of genre's good health, though? I always thought any genre needs to have a proper underground background to be 'alive'. There have to be smaller club nights where people go and know something about what they're gonna hear; these huge festivals are usually full of people who couldn't tell a difference between trance and techno.

true, but those were just examples where large numbers of trance fanatics would have been likely to gather. if i didn't believe trance to have an underground background then i wouldn't have made the point.. for the uk at least, there are easily enough smaller music-focused nights to keep the average trance clubber (who doesn't go out EVERY weekend & is prepared to travel a little) more than satisfied. although i'm likely to be biased with all this being based on my own personal experiences, so take the above with a pinch of salt

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Generally people seem to pick titles the way that they pick avatars online or something. that is, it just looks/sounds cool and somehow 'represents' in a postrational way what it is they made/who they are

Yeah, agreed. Example on the main forums right now: "Faxing Berlin".

In my opinion, a track's title should match the sound which should match the personality of the artist and the story that the track is trying to tell.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Apples and oranges. The main area for innovation and achievement in classical music is melodic / harmonic ideas, so that's what I'd be concentrating on doing if I were writing classical. 99.9% of dance music doesn't do anything innovative as far as harmony and melody, it just takes the principles already well-established by generations of pop music. This is for good reason, since if it tried to do what classical music does with tonality people would perceive it as dissonant, complicated, or weird and wouldn't want to dance to it. I love classical music, by the way, but I don't expect the same things from it that I'd expect from electronic music, like new timbres / effects not possible with acoustic instruments. I don't consider one or the other type of music "better," they're just typically a lot different in what they're trying to achieve.

So you're saying that you will *not* judge classical music by its "danceability", but you'll size up trance by its overused structure?

Trance is designed to zone you out, its something to dance to and enjoy (and perhaps to listen to while high). If you don't like a song, skip it or don't buy it. Even better, get into producing yourself as you seem to be, and maybe one day we'll be hearing one of your tracks, and we'll comment on how original and emotional it is.

Re: The trance formula

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Trance = Beatless break + lush saw pad + "aah" choir + saw lead with low pass filter that opens up before the beat comes back in. Maybe throw a nice plinky piano or guitar / guitar-like synth in there for good measure. That's what trance is, right?

Actually that's more like what pop is...

another thought

the main thing that makes trance poppy or sing-songy is when the bassline moves in harmony with the pads and lead. that's the worst

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec another thought the main thing that makes trance poppy or sing-songy is when the bassline moves in harmony with the pads and lead. that's the worst

As opposed to what, exactly?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery As opposed to what, exactly?

syncopation for example. or maybe extra swing (with taste ofcourse).

quote:

Originally posted by SPAWNmaster syncopation for example. or maybe extra swing (with taste ofcourse).

So you're referring to it's rhythm rather than it's melody?

quote:

As opposed to what, exactly?

Well I was being a bit dramatic - this needs some clarification because certainly it is a backbone of progressive trance - LSG - Netherworld (Oliver Prime Remix) is my favorite example of it working. However, this works because of the extremely long and ambient phrasing, not an obvious melody and follow along bassline


This of course is opposed to for example a bassline which is like a separate melody or pattern, independent from the lead or harmony.

Opposed also to what Andrew mentioned, syncopation and a rhythmic bassline

Or opposed to a drone or driving, repetitive bassline which doesn't shift pitches to harmonize.


eg LSG - Netherworld

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Well I was being a bit dramatic - it works sometimes, but in general it creates a sing-songy feeling. This of course is opposed to for example a bassline which is like a separate melody or pattern, independent from the lead or harmony. Opposed also to what Andrew mentioned, syncopation and a rhythmic bassline Or opposed to a drone or driving, repetitive bassline which doesn't shift pitches to harmonize.

i never really noticed this until i listened to Tiesto - Carpe Noctem

perfect example of this... omfg so wack..

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec This of course is opposed to for example a bassline which is like a separate melody or pattern, independent from the lead or harmony.

By 'independent' you mean 'dissonant'? Bassline can move wherever the fuck it wants but it should always stay in harmony with the lead and the rest of the melodic elements in the track. For me, the reason why do some songs sound poppy, is usually harmonic progressions that are predictable.

think of a bassline that has a life of its own, obviously still relating to the rest of the track

Here's an example -

Jay Tripwire - Tokyo Space Noodles.

haven't really heard it in trance music. which is why the only kind of trance I like has a syncopated or driving bassline with subtle modulation


sample

Bumped!

From another thread:

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra i think you're looking at it from the wrong angle.. this kind of trance isn't really about USPs or crafting a style. it's about the artists coming up with nice melodies, putting them over an efficient template and just enjoying the output of each track at face value, safe in the knowledge plenty of fans will do the same.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head there: "efficient template." This is trance-by-numbers.

The only creativity involved is coming up with a melody that's slightly different from last year's crop of generic "uplifting" tracks.

The rest of it is all just a TECHNICAL WORKOUT: getting the right saw bass and saw lead and saw pad, learning to put the right percussion samples in the right places, and learning your way around EQs and compressors so that you can fill the spectrum and make things nice and loud. Of course, this TECHNICAL WORKOUT can be very tough, because more experienced producers are often unwilling to share knowledge -- since they themselves took a long time to learn it. But...

...put a couple experienced guys who are "pros" at this stuff -- say, Waakop Reijers and Cor Fijneman -- in a decent studio with a newbie trance producer for a few hours each day, and if they were willing to teach, I bet that the newbie could have all the technical stuff down and start churning out tracks identical to those of his "idols" inside of two weeks.

just wanted to post a quote from thomas merton:

quote:

After all, from my very childhood, I had understood that the artistic experience, at its highest, was actually a natural analogue of mystical experience. It produced a kind of intuitive perception of reality through a sort of affective identification with the object contemplated - the kind of perception that the THomists call "connatural"... I had learned from my own father that it was almost blasphemy to regard the function of art as merely to reproduce some kind of a sensible pleasure or, at best, to stir up the emotions to a transitory thrill. I had always understood that art was contemplation, and that it involved the action of the higest faculties of man

from Thomas Merton - The Seven Storey Tower

Here you go:

http://www.philosophaster.com/music...resoftrance.mp3

128 measures of today's trance. Four songs combined for maximum tranceability!

A bit discordant since I didn't bother to mix in key, though.

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