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-- What does PROGRESSIVE mean in music
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quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog By the way, plenty of EDM heads on here, but has anyone ever heard the term "progressive rock music"? Progressive rock, again, relates far more to structure than to the actual sound of the music. Long, droning chords, intricate melodies and slow layering of elements are the most common hallmark of prog rock, elements which are almost completely absent in normal rock music. Songs usually last about 6 or more minutes, which, again, is rare in normal rock music. Awesome band Tool is a perfect example of this genre. Applying this back to dance music, and exactly the same is true. Longer, more drawn out sections, more well conceived melodies etc. I guess you could say that "progressive" is another way of saying "deep". Pop music is superficial...it gets to the point straight away and makes no real effort to establish a mood. On the other hand, a progressive song is "deeper" in a fashion, and will take time to develop ideas and create a mood, or "put you in a trance" as John Digweed said. /rant

Progressive rock was about bands whos music expanded the rock genre with new influences by doing things musically that were unheard of or at least very unusual within rock. Rock critics talk about how bands like Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, ELP and King Crimson (to name a few of the most renowned) progressed the rock genre in the late 60s and 70s.

It wasn't about a type of structure or sound in particular. It was a wide range of new influences brought to the table by different bands. Different bands did different things, that's why ELP sounded nothing like Pink Floyd and yet they were both considered progressive rock. There were compositions drawn out, droning and slow like you described and there was quirky stuff with abrupt transitions between sections, dramatic ups and downs and time signature changes thrown in you face every other minute.

A new approach to songwriting that strayed away from the at the time standard two-and-a-half-minute format, long pieces, influences from classical music and jazz, use of (in rock) unusual chords and chord progressions, intricate compositions, spotlight on increasingly skillfull performers, lyrics that dealt with new themes, new technology in music, unusual time signatures, use of multiple time signatures and time sigature changes, concept albums, spectacular live shows...

This type of things was what progressive rock bands had in common, things that in the context of 60s and 70s rock were progressive. Progressive is innovative, forward-thinking, out of the box, experimental. Then with time, things that would have been considered progressive within a genre when the term was coined become derivative, because as we move forward in time there is less and less new under the sun. But even if something like "progressive rock" (or "progressive house" for that matter) lives on merely as a legacy term, it still has nothing to do with your "slowly-evolving progression put you in a trance" bullshit.

Stop being so ignorant.

I got rid of my coffee grinder because when I ran it it wasn't sounding progressive enough.

from what i have read, the debate for "progressive" has been minimized to one of the two ...
1. moving the genre forward ... whatever genre that is. (original meaning)
2. refers to the structure/content of the song.

is this an accurate debate breakdown ??
if it isnt, critique it.

Follow this thread, where the same topic is discussed on the DI board, it's basically what we have been saying all along...progressive describes the general format of the tune, it has nothing to do with a tune being "futuristic, experimental, or forward-thinking"


http://forums.di.fm/archive/index.php/t-62866.html

When I first started listening to EDM, what we all called techno or dance music at the time, I finally started listening to more house and trance, and trying to learn about the intricate nature of identifying different 'types' of music within the general umbrella of say : house or trance. This is where I started learning about progressive. At first, I actually thought progressive DID mean that it was progressive as in "different" or possibly able to bridge the gap to a future revolution of the musical norms....ie. progressive as marking "progress" in moving the musical movement forward, forward/progressive thinking. About 50 parties and clubnights and 2 years later and after seeing about a thousand more DJs perform and listening to countless DJ mixes, I finally had a real grasp what PROGRESSIVE was all about. I would actually now consider Progressive to be a newer term to describe this type of dance muisic that has been around for actually a long time. Leftfield, William Orbit, etc have been discussed, pick up one of the old Renaissance collections that S+D did...it's all progressive. I would consider that type of music to be more what is really PROGRESSIVE (alot of the Global Underground compilations...purely progressive) - usually the progressive house has more tribal, funk, percussion, drum elements in it, and progressive trance uses more synths and pattern sequencers, but the whole idea that it is progressive, again, basically means: slowly building up, little or no climax, fluid seamless progression to the next track that may be barely noticeable (ie. your typical club/lounge music).

The division between prog. trance and house today is now always made, much of it is simply called "Progressive" now.

But the "progressive" description is noted to clearly separate this type of music from ANTHEMIC trance or house, which is usually quick to build up, has a massive climax (or several of them), usually displays a rollercoaster of sonic emotion through the tune (progressive is more stable thoughout, not as "manic")

Armin, PVD, Tiesto, Above & Beyond, Ferry Corsten <--- "anthemic" trance (in their live sets)

Digweed, Hernan Cattaneo, Sander Kleinenberg, Danny Howells, Tenaglia <--- more "progressive-style" DJs in their mixes and sets

That's as clear as I can explain it...it just takes listening to alot of music and it will finally sink in...what "progressive" means, that is. hahah

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog You can't define a genre by comparing two different things! That's like saying "listen to song x, then listen to song y, and you will understand what house music is" to someone who's never heard it before. Ok...explain what sounds you think are prevalent and defining in progressive house.

Your mistake is to assume that genre names are all powerful, and that because they're in common use they have a clear musical definition. Progressive does not refer to any specific sound any more than it does a specific structure, and it doesn't even refer to an all-encompassing idea of "progression". If anything, it refers to a specific movement within a specific genre.

Progressive house referred to artists making all kinds of inventive, genre-crossing house that often sounded very different but was all connected by the same scene and the same mentality. In this case, it can and was defined by comparison. This is why progressive is a term that becomes dated, just like things like "nu-trance" will become dated.

It's like the term "post-modern". Post-modern refers to all forward thinking art that comes after the modernist movement. Except that modernism is almost a century old now, so there's nothing modern about it anymore. If anything, post-modernism is the new modernism, because it's more modern. But both names stick as they are, because they refer to historical movements as opposed to describing the characteristics of the movement.

I've heard the term "nu-trance" be thrown around a lot... what exactly is it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Game+Watch I've heard the term "nu-trance" be thrown around a lot... what exactly is it?

Let's not even fucking go there, mate.

whatever "progressive house" is, it died in 2003 and no longer exists.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog In regards to genres changing, when the rock band Kiss first started making music, they were known as being "heavy metal", but these days the idea is just laughable, next to real heavy mateal bands like Rammstein, Mudvayne or Sevendust.

What's laughable is calling Mudvayne or Sevendust heavy metal. What's downright shameful is calling Rammstein metal at all. (They're industrial, by the way.)

You're confusing the genre known as [progressive house] (aka boring music) with the original intent of the question, which is to ask what the word, [progressive] means in the context of music in general, that is, the meaning of [[progressive] house] or [[progressive] trance]. To determine the difference, note that [progressive house] can be shortened to [prog house], while when describing a style as progressive, one cannot say, [prog].

[Progressive house] is pretty much as you described: subtle transitions, dark moods, slow builds, boring and repetitive. Essentially, it tries to be proper trance without being proper trance. But just because [progressive house] means this doesn't mean [progressive] refers to the same concept.

[Progressive] in music has already been stated and restated in this thread countless times. It refers to furthering the genre, be it rock, trance, house, rap, what have you. It generally involves bringing something novel to the genre, or incorporating foreign elements. That bandwagon jumpers like to make the same shit as real progressive artists and steal the adjective doesn't change the original adjective's meaning at all.

Can we agree on this, or are you going to continue being contrary for the sake of self-aggrandisement?

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex What's laughable is calling Mudvayne or Sevendust heavy metal. What's downright shameful is calling Rammstein metal at all. (They're industrial, by the way.)

Ok, I'm not too sure there I'll admit; what bands would you call "heavy metal" then?

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex [Progressive house] is pretty much as you described: subtle transitions, dark moods, slow builds, boring and repetitive. Essentially, it tries to be proper trance without being proper trance. But just because [progressive house] means this doesn't mean [progressive] refers to the same concept.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Can we agree on this, or are you going to continue being contrary for the sake of self-aggrandisement?

Agree on this? Yes of course! What you just said is what I've been bloody saying all along! When I say �progressive�, I�m assuming that there will be a genre whacked on the back, such as �trance� or �house�, as the term can relate to many styles of music, just like when you say �hardcore� it could relate to three or four different genres that are grouped under that umbrella.

I think this thread may be just one big misunderstanding. Over here, when we say "progressive" or "prog", it's synonymous with the term "progressive house", UNLESS you specifically attach a genre on the back i.e "progressive breaks". We say "prog" all the time. I.e "This song is proggy", or "I went to a great prog night last week".

I�m disappointed that you think progressive house is boring, but as always, one man�s trash is another�s treasure.

By the way, I�m not being self aggrandising, I�m simply trying to have a proper discussion (though aggressive) about music, which I sorely miss on internet forums these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Ok, I'm not too sure there I'll admit; what bands would you call "heavy metal" then?

Styx, Blue Oyster Cult, Metallica, Kiss. Bands that focused on high musical standards and musical proficiency, not on trying to make the most unmusical sounds possible with the human vocal tract.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Agree on this? Yes of course! What you just said is what I've been bloody saying all along! When I say "progressive", I'm assuming that there will be a genre whacked on the back, such as "trance" or "house", as the term can relate to many styles of music, just like when you say "hardcore", it could relate to three or four different genres that are grouped under that umbrella.

Then you haven't agreed at all. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that [[progressive] house] = [progressive house], which is exactly the opposite of what SystemJ and I are saying, and which, incidentally, is absolutely false.

Case in point: progressive psytrance. It couldn't possibly be named for the slow development and subtle transitions, as that much is already covered by [-trance]. So what does [progressive] mean in this case? It means that the genre receives a great deal of influences from house, tribal, techno and so-called prog.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog p.s we say "prog" all the time. I.e "This song is proggy", or "I went to a great prog night last week".

[Prog], in this case, is a noun to describe probably the most offensive genre of all: the one that is so ambiguous that it can't even decide if it's house, techno or trance. [Proggy] is the adjective associated with this noun, and has no relation to the adjective, [progressive].

Now, this may cause you to ask, "What about calling 'progressive psy,' 'progpsy'?" The answer is that, due to bandwagoners jumping aboard, a genre based on psy with tribal, techno, house and prog influences has formed, and instead of being creative, the bandwagoners did the exact same thing you're doing, and said, [[progressive] psytrance] = [progressive psytrance]. The evidence is that [progpsy] is one word, orthographically.

I just hope people don't take this to mean that the "prog" in "progpsy" refers to bullshit like "progressive structures."

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Styx, Blue Oyster Cult, Metallica, Kiss. Bands that focused on high musical standards and musical proficiency, not on trying to make the most unmusical sounds possible with the human vocal tract.

???

Mudvayne is pretty poor "singing" for sure, but, in my opinion, Sevendust far outweighs Metallica in all ways when it comes to singing; they don't do much screaming or carrying on at all.

Rammstein is just guttural because it's in German, a lot of their singing is actually ok too; "Stripped" is an example.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Case in point: progressive psytrance. It couldn't possibly be named for the slow development and subtle transitions, as that much is already covered by [-trance]. So what does [progressive] mean in this case? It means that the genre receives a great deal of influences from house, tribal, techno and so-called prog.

No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex [Prog], in this case, is a noun to describe probably the most offensive genre of all: the one that is so ambiguous that it can't even decide if it's house, techno or trance. [Proggy] is the adjective associated with this noun, and has no relation to the adjective, [progressive].

I think you need to go back to do maths rather than rambling about the difference between [progressive house] or [[progressive] house], because the inclusion of an extra set of brackets means absolutely nothing meaningful. Are you trying to say that the word "progressive" can have two meanings? If the answer is yes, then you're agreeing both with the side that says it means "cutting edge", and the side that says it's a structural/atmospheric thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog ??? Mudvayne is pretty poor "singing" for sure, but, in my opinion, Sevendust far outweighs Metallica in all ways when it comes to singing; they don't do much screaming or carrying on at all. Rammstein is just guttural because it's in German, a lot of their singing is actually ok too; "Stripped" is an example.

I'll admit, then to never having actually heard much Sevendust, but the fact that you continue to assert that Rammstein is metal makes me question how much you really know about metal (or industrial) in the first place. I'm only going to say this once more: Rammstein is not metal.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

More subtle than full-on, for sure, but that's shortchanging the rest of the genre if full-on is all you know about. Atmos was making incredibly subtle psy-trance in the late 90's, years before progressive psy was even an idea. Furthermore, progpsy tends away from the psy bassline as one of many actual distinguishing factors of the genre, and to assert that trance is not "weird" or "dark" is to deny the genre's history.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog I think you need to go back to do maths rather than rambling about the difference between [progressive house] or [[progressive] house], because the inclusion of an extra set of brackets means absolutely nothing meaningful. Are you trying to say that the word "progressive" can have two meanings? If the answer is yes, then you're agreeing both with the side that says it means "cutting edge", and the side that says it's a structural/atmospheric thing.

I think you need to study up on semantic arguments before you get yourself into one. You'd also do well to learn the difference between semantics and maths. I'm saying that [progressive house] is a lexical entry in itself. In laymen's terms, it is one word. [[progressive] house], while ambiguous in pronunciation, is represented in my argument as one lexical entry modifying another.

Thus, I am agreeing with you that [progressive house] means what you say it means. However, I'm also saying (and now repeating, because I can only assume you didn't read it the first time) that in the context of the original question, your answer is incorrect, because the question asked only about the adjective, [progressive].

Unless by "progressive house," he means the bandwagon shite, in which case this is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

Progressive Psy is most defenitly called progressive psy for the gradual buildup (not future/different anyway). It may have more varience in styles but I'd like to see a fast Progpsy song that doesnt have the gradual buildup.


Juno Reactor (although you might call them Goa but they are still pretty similar) could be said to be furthering the Psy/Goa genre (there most defenitly is a difference but lets not go into that atm) however THEY are most defenitly not Progpsy/Prog goa.

Anyone else agree with the guy that said Progpsy is "furthering/expanding" the Psytrance/Goa Genre?

Sure Tegma/vibrasphere/other falls under Progpsy but that's hardly reason to say the genre is especially furthering/expanding Psy/Goa.

Case in point: If Progpsy ment future Psy then Infected Mushroom and Juno Reactor would fall under Progressive Psy... they most defenitly do not however due to their structure (although Juno Reactor don't generally do the standard Psytrance/Goa Structure either sometimes)

quote:

Originally posted by Darkarbiter Progressive Psy is most defenitly called progressive psy for the gradual buildup (not future/different anyway). It may have more varience in styles but I'd like to see a fast Progpsy song that doesnt have the gradual buildup.

This, of course, couldn't possibly be because its, you know, trance.

Juno Reactor is certainly progressive psy in the sense of progressive being an adjective. The thing is, they don't always go with the slow, tribal, housey dark sounds of progpsy. JR is too varied to be pigeonholed into anyone genre, really.

Infected Mushroom isn't progpsy because they're cheesy, and really don't do anything new.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Thus, I am agreeing with you that [progressive house] means what you say it means. However, I'm also saying (and now repeating, because I can only assume you didn't read it the first time) that in the context of the original question, your answer is incorrect, because the question asked only about the adjective, [progressive]. Unless by "progressive house," he means the bandwagon shite, in which case this is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

I'd worded up a big aggressive response, then I realised that you'd actually said something sensible.

Here's where the confusion lies:

Over here, to my friends and I, and pretty much everyone I know, the term "progressive" is both an adjective, a noun and a genre name. This can be shortened to "prog" or "proggy"(adjective) with no change in meaning.

If someone says "what genre is this song", by saying "progressive", 9 times out of 10, that would mean "progressive house".

However, if the song was obviously trance, and you said "progressive", then that's the word acting as an adjective, describing the trance music as being "progressive", comprende?

To us, "progressive" as an adjective, noun, or genre name doesn't mean "cutting edge", it means it has a more repetitive, subtle, deeper, entrancing, atmospheric sound to it, hence why it can be wacked on the front of any genre name and add meaning to it. i.e "atmospheric trance", "subtle house", "entrancing techno".

In a nutshell, pretty much as John Digweed described it:

quote:

Originally posted by blacknoizybox "progressive" + [genre] = usually means a more (more than pure [genre]) moody deeeeep bass, complex percussions, loads of reverb and fx, less catchy melody, long transitions, small hardly-noticed changes in percussion and structure throughout the track. progressive, to me personally, is more relevant to feeling a state of trance due to the repeatance and monotony of the progressive sound(which is a good thing)

I have no more to say on this subject.

Can I just say, I have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "this rubbishy bandwagon crap" in relation to prog house, because most of it is so deep, with hardly any vocals and hardly any catchy hooks, that it will pretty much never be popular for the masses.

Example of a prog house track I like at the moment: DJ Remy & Roland Klinkenberg - Mexico Can Wait

p.s every time I see this thread, it pisses me off that some retard couldn't just go back and correct his own spelling. "progressice".

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex I'll admit, then to never having actually heard much Sevendust, but the fact that you continue to assert that Rammstein is metal makes me question how much you really know about metal (or industrial) in the first place. I'm only going to say this once more: Rammstein is not metal.

...and KISS is?

this thread needs more ishkur

it mean nothing at all

quote:

Originally posted by iamtehsuck this thread needs more ishkur

Here you go:

everything is fucked

the scene is fucked

everyone's fucked.

The culture is fucked.

The attitude is fucked

The Djs are fucked

The producers today are fucked

No-one cares anymore, It's all about the money

WHAAA! WHAA! WHAA! I am more knowledgable than any of you about the scene, therefore, I am right about everything and my hyper-cynicism is completely factual and based on reality. I will continue to judge and label, as opposed to percieving and understanding.

I will not discuss or consider the impact of government regulations and rave laws etc. etc etc. on the scene and how it's affected the EDM scene.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex This, of course, couldn't possibly be because its, you know, trance. Juno Reactor is certainly progressive psy in the sense of progressive being an adjective.

What about that track: SAmurai? That's by Juno Reactor isn't it?

Would you still call that Progressive psy (in the noun sense: Ie Genre) (maybe adjective?)?

(BTW, I love that track.)

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog I'd worded up a big aggressive response, then I realised that you'd actually said something sensible. Here's where the confusion lies: Over here, to my friends and I, and pretty much everyone I know, the term "progressive" is both an adjective, a noun and a genre name. This can be shortened to "prog" or "proggy"(adjective) with no change in meaning. If someone says "what genre is this song", by saying "progressive", 9 times out of 10, that would mean "progressive house". However, if the song was obviously trance, and you said "progressive", then that's the word acting as an adjective, describing the trance music as being "progressive", comprende? To us, "progressive" as an adjective, noun, or genre name doesn't mean "cutting edge", it means it has a more repetitive, subtle, deeper, entrancing, atmospheric sound to it, hence why it can be wacked on the front of any genre name and add meaning to it. i.e "atmospheric trance", "subtle house", "entrancing techno". In a nutshell, pretty much as John Digweed described it: I have no more to say on this subject. Can I just say, I have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "this rubbishy bandwagon crap" in relation to prog house, because most of it is so deep, with hardly any vocals and hardly any catchy hooks, that it will pretty much never be popular for the masses. Example of a prog house track I like at the moment: DJ Remy & Roland Klinkenberg - Mexico Can Wait p.s every time I see this thread, it pisses me off that some retard couldn't just go back and correct his own spelling. "progressice".

Oh wait.

Are they both ADjectives?

I'm so confused. I think both describe music. But an adjective qualifies a noun. Progressive in the innovative sense i think is an adverb, as it is qualifying a verb. DOING. PROGRESSING the genre/sound.

Even though I'm guilty to being part of some of them..this board has some of the silliest arguments I've ever seen..it's kinda funny. Just pointing that out. I get into the whole "what does this label mean" game too, but it drives me nuts just as anyone else....just plain stupidity. But anyways to join in on the argument..

It means both things from my point of view. There's music that does use "progressive structure"...where the song progresses over a long period of time, as a lot of trance does. Then there's "progressive" as far as things going forward...being more "progressive thinking" and added new elements like new sounds. I think if some people on here would just come to a consensus like that, seek the middle ground...there wouldn't be silly arguments like this. It's the same thing with politics...polarization...people being so one sided with their views.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Over here, to my friends and I, and pretty much everyone I know, the term "progressive" is both an adjective, a noun and a genre name. This can be shortened to "prog" or "proggy"(adjective) with no change in meaning. If someone says "what genre is this song", by saying "progressive", 9 times out of 10, that would mean "progressive house". However, if the song was obviously trance, and you said "progressive", then that's the word acting as an adjective, describing the trance music as being "progressive", comprende? To us, "progressive" as an adjective, noun, or genre name doesn't mean "cutting edge", it means it has a more repetitive, subtle, deeper, entrancing, atmospheric sound to it, hence why it can be wacked on the front of any genre name and add meaning to it. i.e "atmospheric trance", "subtle house", "entrancing techno". In a nutshell, pretty much as John Digweed described it: I have no more to say on this subject. Can I just say, I have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "this rubbishy bandwagon crap" in relation to prog house, because most of it is so deep, with hardly any vocals and hardly any catchy hooks, that it will pretty much never be popular for the masses. Example of a prog house track I like at the moment: DJ Remy & Roland Klinkenberg - Mexico Can Wait

I use only "proggy" to describe the darker, slower stuff. I rarely use the term progressive unless it is to describe music that I really think is progressive. I happen to believe mine is the correct usage, largely because of the historical precedent for it. I think you and your friends would do well to research what styles were called progressive originally, and reassess your positions. The progressive name has been applied to many styles, not just tracks that are slow and subtle.

"Bandwagon" does not imply poppy. It implies that a style becomes vogue, and producers replicate it in large numbers, crafting an entire genre around it. It's not so much that being a bandwagon genre makes it bad, I just find that most prog house is boring as hell.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog p.s every time I see this thread, it pisses me off that some retard couldn't just go back and correct his own spelling. "progressice".

Well, we at least agree on something.

quote:

...and KISS is?

Why in the world wouldn't they be? Do tell.

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