TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Chill Out Room
-- religion is so great, doo-dah doo-dah
Pages (6): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 »

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles That's just not true. One word: nationalism.

that makes the statement incomplete, not untrue.

I think what everyone should be getting out of this discussion is that everyone has the answer and if we all would just believe what everyone else with the correct answer believed, everything would be okay. However, given that will never happen, how about we instead argue over a book written by a choad-ass athiest, like myself, to shove his views in everyone else's face.

Do not tell me he does not, because I saw the documentaries he did which directly reflected his book, and he was particularly harsh on religious persons. He has an agenda, and whether you believe it or not (I do) he is not a good example of athiests. I have always prided myself on being the one that didn't shove my beliefs down someone else's throat. If someone asked, fine, but otherwise I believed what I wanted and let others decide for themselves. Richard does not abide by this simple, and common courtesy. I like his writing and documentaries, but his approach to people is wrong often times. He should do all athiests a favor and stop representing us poorly.

and the point you keep missing is that atheists like yourself were a quiet minority until religious fundamentalism became a big hit with a new wave of religious radicals imposing their "personal" values upon the rest of society... ie: abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, terry schiavo, intelligent design/public school content, hpv vaccination, 10 commandments bs, geologic revisionism, etc. if the jesusfreaks want to start insisting what they believe is right for everyone on the planet, then i commend the atheists who bite back...

and if you really want to point out which side has the loudest and most obnoxious characters, well... i really don't think any christian wants to go there

To get rid of subjective experience is to get rid of everything to do with the creative mind. To me, and you can argue it all you want, but to deny the existence of God is to deny the existence of CREATIVITY i.e. the human ability to create worlds through art. Because art exists, and science can be argued as an "art".

To make everything have a rational or "evidence" based approach is to say "whatever exists, exists just as long as I can see it first hand", but that then runs into the argument that we can't readily experience what someone else is..i.e. we have individual consciousness. One person might perceive the world in one way, and someone else the other, but it's EQUALLY if not MORE irrational to say "the world exists only through objective reasoning" or "rational-evidence based conclusions" i.e. deduction. Reality in and of itself is an act of creation...things just don't "pop" up for no reason, that makes no sense.

So a tree is alive because of a SEED not because it just appears. The same with most other life. Humans are born through the act of creation. So wouldn't that make sense then that something created the Universe, that the Earth was created by some force. No I am not arguing for biblical creationism or ID, but merely stating that something cannot come out of nothing. And religious beliefs like the afterlife and soul have been around for thousands of years. More people are theistic (or at least agnostic) than "atheistic" if we lived in a world of atheism, then most likely science would turn into a religion I think or worship of the state/leader (like North Korea). Religion and science were once intertwined and still are in tribal societies (Shaman are equally doctors/healers as they are priests, Native American's have "medicine men", science and religion are not these two extreme spheres of knowledge like they are here in the West, rather they are different but related ways of looking at the world).

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5

Actually something CAN come out of nothing. Do some research other than the bible.

Anyways, i do hope that most of the theists here realise that we're not mocking any of your beliefs. Science hasnt figured out everything,but we're getting there. In the mean time, go ahead.. pray.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: religion is so great, doo-dah doo-dah

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN there arent any merits of developing statutes from superstition. laws should be able to stand by themselves, without the need to be propped up by unsubstantiated magicks.

Exactly. Morals is just rationalism applied to human interactions. It goes like this: because I can see that I am the same as the next man, I know that I shouldn't murder him, just as I wouldn't want him to murder me. See, no God involved there. Adding "...because God said so" is completely unnecessary.

quote:

To get rid of subjective experience is to get rid of everything to do with the creative mind. To me, and you can argue it all you want, but to deny the existence of God is to deny the existence of CREATIVITY i.e. the human ability to create worlds through art. Because art exists, and science can be argued as an "art". ... So a tree is alive because of a SEED not because it just appears. The same with most other life. Humans are born through the act of creation. So wouldn't that make sense then that something created the Universe, that the Earth was created by some force. No I am not arguing for biblical creationism or ID, but merely stating that something cannot come out of nothing. ...

1 - subjective experience does not necessarily mean god. read "the self aware universe" by amit goswami

2 - i know plenty of creative atheists

3 - you say that something created the universe yet in the next sentence said that something cannot come from nothing? this is the age old dilemma and why it doesn't really matter what the hell you believe in, as long as you aren't killing, raping, disrespecting, etc other people because they don't believe what you believe.

quote:

Originally posted by R!CH and the point you keep missing is that atheists like yourself were a quiet minority until religious fundamentalism became a big hit with a new wave of religious radicals imposing their "personal" values upon the rest of society... ie: abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, terry schiavo, intelligent design/public school content, hpv vaccination, 10 commandments bs, geologic revisionism, etc. if the jesusfreaks want to start insisting what they believe is right for everyone on the planet, then i commend the atheists who bite back...

Obviously not comparable in terms of the extent of violence used, but your line of thinking sounds a lot like the justification that terrorists use for their actions. Passive resistence, like the poster above you, is the way to go!

quote:

Originally posted by trewqy In the mean time, go ahead.. pray.

THANKS, MAN!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec 3 - you say that something created the universe yet in the next sentence said that something cannot come from nothing? this is the age old dilemma and why it doesn't really matter what the hell you believe in, as long as you aren't killing, raping, disrespecting, etc other people because they don't believe what you believe.

Fucking brilliant. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree THANKS, MAN!!!!

no problems. Praise be to Allah.

quote:

Originally posted by trewqy no problems. Praise be to Allah.

lol I'm glad you feel the same way.

Probably the most entertaining part of all this is just how much satisfaction it gives me to see how blind many of you are to your own zealotry.

It's like watching two groups of children on the playground fighting over whose parents story about where Santa comes from is true - you just want to make the other side believe sooooo bad.



And Rich, I'd gladly get into the "Which side has more obnoxious characters?" debate with you - because it isn't how many, but the shear fact that I find you all obnoxious, that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Probably the most entertaining part of all this is just how much satisfaction it gives me to see how blind many of you are to your own zealotry. It's like watching two groups of children on the playground fighting over whose parents story about where Santa comes from is true - you just want to make the other side believe sooooo bad. And Rich, I'd gladly get into the "Which side has more obnoxious characters?" debate with you - because it isn't how many, but the shear fact that I find you all obnoxious, that matters.

this post shows ur no different from us, u fence sitter!

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree this post shows ur no different from us, u fence sitter!

I'm not on the fence though, I have my beliefs, and they are mine.

I don't have this compulsion that seems so prevalent here to prove that I'm right to anyone else - history might well prove me wrong.

What matters is that my opinion on matters of both science and faith don't push me to tell me how wrong you, or anyone else is - especially about claims that simply cannot be proven (i.e. the existence, or lack thereof, of a "god" of any sort).

quote:

Originally posted by RJT What matters is that my opinion on matters of both science and faith don't push me to tell me how wrong you, or anyone else is - especially about claims that simply cannot be proven (i.e. the existence, or lack thereof, of a "god" of any sort).

We're trying to avoid that aspect where we can because we realize it's futile.

However, I only came into this whole subject on Saudis/Muhammad to try and dispel some misconceptions. I don't want anyone to convert here (which is what your posts are implying that both sides are doing) but we are merely enlightening each other on FACTS and perspectives that we might not have previously known existed!

This type of discourse and tolerance is what makes me happy to be a part of the liberal democratic system . Not too many people care to engage in this type of exchange (I never did in all my years growing up with the Australians in my compound and Americans/Europeans in my school) because people were too busy making money...

...which brings me to another rule. After grade 9 in my high school, I had to leave the country to pursue the rest of my high school elsewhere, so I returned to Toronto and went to boarding school. The American school I went to opened up grades 10-12 only about 4 or 5 years ago. Before then, foreign children were not allowed to have foreign education in the country past the age of 17. The government felt that past this age, there could be a negative effect of foreign ideologies on the Saudi public. It has opened up recently, but that just shows you the level of control the government had to take in order to remain true to its values. The above was not a law; I recall it was just a practice that was respected. If your kid didn't leave for grade 10 abroad, there would be some complication with the renewal of the visa for your father...lol something like that.

You may think that's weird or denying some form of human rights, but it's consistent with Moral Hazard's point that if you're not getting what you want in this country, by all means, LEAVE!

I'm just surprised that for all our intelligence we're still asking the same questions man has been asking since the dawn of time. Evolution my ass.

I don't see many folks trying to avoid that aspect.

And my posts weren't directed specifically at you.

And what questions are u guys asking?

Why are we here? how did the universe come about? Whats after life?

I dont care and frankly, I'm not interested. Its such a wonder that people have to find some sort of meaning behind their pathetic lives that they come up with more ludicrous explanations that somehow make them feel "at peace" with oneself.

thnxb2pac

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Fuck do I hate threads like these. To answer whoever the hell it was that asked why I thought Dawkins was a twat it's simply because he's every bit as closed minded as the people he rails against. And with that, I'm done. You kids enjoy your little argument.

What would expect when there aren't any good arguments from theists?

quote:

Originally posted by trewqy Actually something CAN come out of nothing. Do some research other than the bible. Anyways, i do hope that most of the theists here realise that we're not mocking any of your beliefs. Science hasnt figured out everything,but we're getting there. In the mean time, go ahead.. pray.

I don't read the bible, nor am I religious, I am more agnostic (though raised catholic). So don't assume. Some people get confused with philosophical arguments (like I am making) to theological or "religious" arguments. I'm saying that MOST things are created..organisms, art is creation, we are creators of all sorts of things (technology being an example). So if MOST things are created, then how can something just "poof" appear rather than have somehow being designed by something (not saying it's God, but it's got to be something out there) not just appear out of nowhere. Something could come out of nothing, but something would have had to come to form nothing (a void essentially, it just doesn't "exist", it's there, but how did it get there?).

It's the same idea with the universe. Are you scientific objectivists (fundamentalists) oppose to philosophy? Cause science came out of philosophy, so did most disciplines, and philosophy asks questions...just as science does. But philosophy doesn't purport to be the truth and the absolute truth....like science and religion does (most). I'm not arguing for either side, but merely trying to show that there is a common ground between them rather than extremes. Can't you guys argue philosophically rather than purporting to think that everything a scientist says is truth? Cause scientific thinking changes as more discoveries are made, so not much is stuck in stone (And isn't that just like the bible...everything in the bible is stuck in stone and no kind of questioning can be accepted? how funny how both extremes are actually so much the same).

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux What would expect when there aren't any good arguments from theists?

Again, believe what you want to - but at the end of the day I don't think the "scientists" and the "theists" are fundamentally all that far from one another, and think it's people who do that are the cause of the hatred and evil that arise from either.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Again, believe what you want to - but at the end of the day I don't think the "scientists" and the "theists" are fundamentally all that far from one another, and think it's people who do that are the cause of the hatred and evil that arise from either.

Which is the most concise way of saying what I've been saying (yeah I know I'm not that good at being concise, don't have to be reminded of that).

To me, Rich and pkcRAISTLIN are no different than those chumps that picketed that soldier's funeral with hate about how God is punishing the U.S. country for its evils. I just don't understand why you two are so adamant about proving yourself correct over an internet forum.

This is to all the "intelligent atheists" that use the internet to argue against religion: Get a life and stop being so self-conscious about what you believe in that you have to pick fights with people and then copy/paste exerts from books/internet sites just to have some deluded image of yourself as being an intellectual.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT What matters is that my opinion on matters of both science and faith don't push me to tell me how wrong you, or anyone else is - especially about claims that simply cannot be proven (i.e. the existence, or lack thereof, of a "god" of any sort).

It's not even about proving how everything was created. It's about being able to give a rational explanation for everything you think, say and do. If you can't do that, you are by definition a madman. And no, beginning your explanation with "well, some dude 2000 years ago..." is not a rational explanation.

You wouldn't accept "because God said so" to an everyday question, so why should this idiotic behaviour be tolerated when the welfare of our society is at stake?

The problem is you view religion and spirituality solely in the specific, in situations you easily identify as "insane" - rather than as any sort of abstraction. You make rationality and spirituality mutually exclusive right off the bat, removing any chance anyone would have to posit an alternate view before they even have the chance.

But again, I'm really not going to bother to sit here and flesh this out with people clearly committed to a specific perspective on reality. You're going to believe what you're going to believe, and it would be foolish and rude of me to believe I could or should ever try to change that.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.