TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Death toll for Iraqis falls
Pages (5): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover Opus here is a tissue. The only onw crying in this board is you. Im sick and tired of you hijacking my threads to tell us about your frustrations. I mean Opus why dont you go and create a " Cry Out Thread" and take all the things you like to bitch about there. But please donot go to other peoples thread and hijack them  |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover My calculations indicate that by the end of 08 we will have a stabilized Iraq. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Clovis I will fucking hold you to that. |
Opus,
I have told you multiple times that you have not shown the maturity, integrity to engage in a debate with me. You can provoke me all you want but I will not grant you that honor. Sometimes I express a bit of my opinion but till this day I have not debated anyone in this board or even tried too.
Now dont come and freak me out if I want a hug 
where I come from men dont hug other men. From what ive seen this type of behavior starts with hugging and then it moves on to touching. So please Opus dont confuse my sexual orientation, I'm heterosexual. So please dont come and try to impose your opposite behaviors here to the board.
Moving on in a more serious note... All reports from the ground from our generals keep indicating that violence in Iraq has indeed decreased and that he are providing more security to the Iraqi people. The far left can come our and hammer this information with phony reports that more Americans are dying each day but the facts state the opposite. The Anti-American movement can come up and discredit the efforts of our soldiers, but the movement cannot implement their pessimistic and losing philosophy.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by XaNaX Yeah, the key here is what his definition of 'stabilized' is. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover Moving on in a more serious note... All reports from the ground from our generals keep indicating that violence in Iraq has indeed decreased and that he are providing more security to the Iraqi people. The far left can come our and hammer this information with phony reports that more Americans are dying each day but the facts state the opposite. The Anti-American movement can come up and discredit the efforts of our soldiers, but the movement cannot implement their pessimistic and losing philosophy. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover The Anti-American movement can come up and discredit the efforts of our soldiers, but the movement cannot implement their pessimistic and losing philosophy. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover Sometimes I express a bit of my opinion but till this day I have not debated anyone in this board or even tried too. |
I'd be remiss if I didn't voice my disagreement.
I don't condone the way Latin acts, and certainly think he's being childish, but I don't think he's done anything to warrant a suspension. He does level ad hominems from time to time, but to be fair he receives worse. And though he, by his own admission, scarcely puts any thought into any of his posts, I thought that this thread has represented more "effort" from him than any previous. I just can't shake the feeling that he's being lynched by a mob for being, in our view, wrong. It would definitely be nice to see some more support for his opinions. But the only thing he's hurt by refusing to supply support is, in my opinion, his own credibility.
(Edited in lieu of Lira's post)
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover Opus, I have told you multiple times that you have not shown the maturity, integrity to engage in a debate with me. |
| quote: |
| You can provoke me all you want but I will not grant you that honor. |
| quote: |
| Sometimes I express a bit of my opinion but till this day I have not debated anyone in this board or even tried too. |
| quote: |
| Now dont come and freak me out if I want a hug where I come from men dont hug other men. |
| quote: |
| From what ive seen this type of behavior starts with hugging and then it moves on to touching. |
| quote: |
| So please Opus dont confuse my sexual orientation, I'm heterosexual. So please dont come and try to impose your opposite behaviors here to the board. |
| quote: |
| Moving on in a more serious note... |
| quote: |
| All reports from the ground from our generals keep indicating that violence in Iraq has indeed decreased and that he are providing more security to the Iraqi people. |
| quote: |
| 25 Dead in Iraq Bombings As Gates Visits By HAMID AHMED � 1 day ago BAGHDAD (AP) � A car bomb exploded in a largely Shiite neighborhood Wednesday, killing at least 16 people, just as Defense Secretary Robert Gates visited the capital and said a secure and stable Iraq was within reach. It was the deadliest of four bombs in Iraq on Wednesday that killed a total of 25 people. Earlier, a blast went off in the northern city of Mosul, where Gates had landed on his sixth trip to Iraq. Gunfire and sirens followed the bombing in Baghdad's Karradah neighborhood, and a plume of smoke rose in the sky. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5...s98w8wD8TBFGVO0 |
| quote: |
| * BAGHDAD - A car bomb near a Shi'ite mosque in central Baghdad's Karrada district killed 15 people and wounded 33, police said. * BAGHDAD - Four bodies were found in different areas of Baghdad, police said. * SULAIMANIYA - Bombs destroyed a shop selling alcohol in the town of Sayyid Sadiq near the Iranian border southeast of Sulaimaniya, 330 km (205 miles) northeast of Baghdad, on Tuesday, police said. KIRKUK - A parked car bomb killed two people in southern Kirkuk, 250 km (155 miles) north of Baghdad, police and hospital sources said. The bomb targeted the convoy of a police commander, Brigadier-General Kakamen Hameed, who was among 10 people wounded. One of his bodyguards was among the two killed. MOSUL - A parked car bomb killed one civilian and wounded seven others, including a policeman, in central Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, police said. BAGHDAD - Two policemen were wounded by a roadside bomb targeting their patrol in Baghdad's western Yarmouk district, police said. DHULUIYA - One body was found with gunshot wounds in the town of Dhuluiya, 70 km (45 miles) north of Baghdad, police said. BAQUBA - A parked car bomb killed five people and wounded 13 on a road near a number of government offices in the city of Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) north of Baghdad, police said. SALAHUDDIN PROVINCE - Two U.S. soldiers were killed and two others wounded when gunmen opened fire after a roadside bomb exploded in Salahuddin province on Tuesday, the U.S. military said. WASIT PROVINCE - Iraqi security forces arrested a suspected al Qaeda militant with three others believed to be involved in killing civilians in Wasit province, southeast of Baghdad, a security source said. A Katyusha rocket launcher that had targeted a Georgian military position in the town of Numaniya, 120 km (72 miles) south of Baghdad, was also found, the source said. ANBAR PROVINCE - One U.S. soldier was killed and two injured by an explosion in Anbar province in western Iraq on Monday, the U.S. military said. KUT - Gunmen killed a sheikh in a drive by-shooting in western Kut, 170 km (100 miles) southeast of Baghdad, police said. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L05138348.htm |
| quote: |
| The far left can come our and hammer this information with phony reports that more Americans are dying each day but the facts state the opposite. |
| quote: |
| The Anti-American movement can come up and discredit the efforts of our soldiers, but the movement cannot implement their pessimistic and losing philosophy. |
| quote: |
| Why Bush's troop surge won't save Iraq The influx of U.S. troops brought a relative lull in violence -- but the failing state remains in political chaos and is headed for collapse. By Juan Cole Dec. 04, 2007 | Appearing on "Meet the Press" on Sunday, Democratic Sen. Jim Webb of Virginia gave some needed perspective on the U.S. troop "surge" in Iraq. Webb, a Vietnam veteran and former secretary of the Navy under Ronald Reagan, recently returned from a visit to Iraq. He said that it was inaccurate to attribute the recent reduction in violence entirely to Bush's troop escalation. Moreover, Webb said that any security improvements in Iraq would only help if accompanied by political progress. He criticized the administration for "the failure for the last five years to match the quality of our military performance with robust regional diplomacy." Webb was correct to point out that the only truly good news to come from Iraq would be good news regarding the political landscape. And there, Iraq is still beset with problems. In recent days, parts of northern Iraq have been invaded by Turkey, an ally of the United States. In Baghdad, Sunni members of parliament staged a walkout to defend their leader, whose bodyguards were implicated in fashioning car bombs. Proposed legislation reducing sanctions against Sunni Arabs who once belonged to the Baath Party nearly produced a riot in parliament. Meanwhile, Britain and Australia, among Bush's few remaining allies with combat troops in Iraq, are planning to depart in 2008, raising questions about security in the key southern port city of Basra, the major route for the country's lucrative oil exports. |
| quote: |
| What the recent publicity about the "success" of the troop surge has ignored is this: The Bush administration has downplayed the collapsing political situation in Iraq by directing the public's attention to fluctuating numbers of civilians killed. While there have been some relative gains in security recently, even there the picture remains dubious. The Iraqi ministry of health, long known for cooking the books, says that a few hundred Iraqis were killed in political violence in November. However, independent observers such as Iraq Body Count cite a much higher number -- some 1,100 civilians killed in Iraq in November. They reported that bombings and assassinations accounted for 63 persons on Saturday, the first day of December, alone. |
| quote: |
| Indeed, the "good news" of a lull in violence is relative at best. In fact, Iraq's overall death rate makes it among the worst civil conflicts in the world. Even if one accepted the official Iraqi government statistics, the average number of Iraqi deaths directly attributable to political violence in the past three full months has been around 700 per month. That pace, if maintained, would work out to about 8,400 deaths a year. (I am citing the kind of war statistics produced by passive information gathering such as in newspapers. Using a more comprehensive public health study such as the one that appeared in the Lancet last year, which takes into account deaths from criminal violence and insecurity generally, would result in much higher numbers.) In all of Northern Ireland's troubles over 30 years, only about 3,000 persons are thought to have been killed. In Kashmir since 1989, some 40,000 to 90,000 persons have been killed in communal and guerrilla violence; if we take the higher number, that's roughly 419 killed per month. Perhaps only Somalia and Sudan witness killings on that scale, and no one would say that "good news" is coming out of either of those places. |
| quote: |
| The current "good news" campaign from the Bush administration regarding the troop surge is only the latest in a long history of whitewashing the war since the 2003 invasion. First, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld denied that there was massive looting following the fall of Baghdad. Then he denied that there was a rising guerrilla war. Then, after the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani maneuvered an unwilling Bush administration into holding relatively free elections, the victory of Shiite fundamentalists close to Iran was obscured by the "purple thumb" good news campaign. That is, the administration focused on the democratic process and relative success of the voting, diverting attention from the bad news that the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq had taken over. |
| quote: |
| Later, it was good news when the Iraqi parliament produced a theocratic constitution with all the weaknesses of the U.S. Articles of Confederation, even though all three Sunni-majority provinces rejected it in the subsequent referendum. What was in the constitution was not important, only that it existed. The Bush administration has heralded any number of such "milestones" reached, but not whether they led to worthwhile results. Obscured by these "milestones" is that the orgy of violence in Iraq has displaced 2 million persons abroad and another 2 million internally, and left tens of thousands dead. But now the "good news" is that the guerrillas appear not to have been able to keep up the pace of violence characteristic of 2006 and early 2007, even if the pace they maintain today is horrific. |
| quote: |
| Moreover, the relative reduction in violence is artificial and probably cannot endure. Blast walls enclose once posh Baghdad districts like Adhamiya, but although they keep out death squads they also keep out the customers that shopkeepers depend on. When a Baghdad pet market was bombed recently, it was revealed that the US military had banned vehicles in its vicinity for some time, but allowed cars to drive there again just a few days before the bombing. Vehicle bans are effective, but not practical in the medium or long term. When they end, what will prevent the bombs from returning? Recent political developments have been ominous on multiple fronts. On Saturday, Turkey says it launched an attack inside Iraq on positions of the radical Kurdish Workers Party (PKK), which is on the U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations. The Turkish press reported that 100 Turkish special operations troops went into Iraq. In short, there was a small invasion. Turkey charges that PKK guerrillas have conducted cross-border raids, killing dozens of Turkish troops. Turkey is a NATO ally of the United States -- but the Iraqi Kurds are virtually the only firm friends Washington has in Iraq, so the Bush administration is now caught between the anvil and the fire. In Baghdad, politics are a mess. Critics of Bush's policy complain that the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite fundamentalist, has not reached out with sufficient vigor to Sunni Arabs to seek reconciliation. In fact, the situation is far worse than that. The case of one Sunni Arab leader is emblematic: On Saturday, the members of the Iraqi Accord Front in parliament staged a mass walkout, charging that the U.S. military had put their leader, Adnan Dulaimi, under house arrest. In Tikrit, a Sunni Arab city north of Baghdad known as Saddam Hussein's hometown, hundreds of citizens demonstrated on behalf of Dulaimi. The boycott ended on Sunday when U.S. troops brought Dulaimi to the Al-Rashid Hotel in the Green Zone, so that he could be safe enough to attend parliament. The bizarre dispute had begun Thursday night when U.S. forces were investigating violence against members of the local "Awakening Council," tribal fighters paid by the Americans to fight radical jihadis. (This is the strategy the U.S. has used with some success in the Anbar province.) U.S. troops traced the cars used in the attack to Dulaimi's compound, then found a rigged-up car bomb nearby, to which one of Dulaimi's guards had the key. The U.S. military detained some 40 of the Sunni leader's bodyguards, as well has his son, Makki. On Sunday, the Iraqi government charged that chemical tests showed that seven of Dulaimi's bodyguards had been handling explosives. The most charitable interpretation one could put on the evidence released so far is that a terror ring was operating among Dulaimi's bodyguards without his knowledge. If that were so, it would suggest a shocking lack of judgment on his part. Or, as he himself suggested, it is not impossible that the rogue guards were planning to assassinate Dulaimi himself; several prominent Sunni Arab politicians have been attacked by their own security guards. But of the three possibilities -- that Dulaimi or his son is actively implicated in political violence; that unbeknownst to him, his mansion was being used for bomb making; or that his household had been infiltrated by radical Sunni fundamentalists intent on killing him -- none qualifies remotely as the type of "good news" for which Bush's supporters are looking. The bloc in parliament that Dulaimi leads had withdrawn this summer from the so-called national unity government of al-Maliki, with its six cabinet ministers resigning. Al-Maliki for a while declined to accept their resignations, then abruptly accused them of absenteeism and dismissed them, depriving them of pensions and perquisites. Then he attempted to appoint other Sunnis to his cabinet, from the tribal Awakening Councils that are on the U.S. payroll, but parliamentarians complained that these individuals had not been elected to office. The Iraqi Accord Front comprises Sunni Arabs who until recently had been willing to serve in al-Maliki's Shiite-dominated government. They have shown no inclination to rejoin him. The tribal Awakening Councils in al-Anbar Province and elsewhere have turned against the Salafi jihadis (who sometimes style themselves "al-Qaida," though they have no direct ties to Osama bin Laden). But most of their members are still deeply distrustful of the al-Maliki government, which they tend to view as Iranian. (Iranians are also Shiites, but unlike Iraqis do not speak Arabic.) There are other signs that efforts toward political reconciliation are failing miserably. A significant element in the Sunni guerrilla movement around Mosul is the Izzat al-Duri faction of the Baath Party, which also has support in Baghdad neighborhoods such as Adhamiya. In a quest to mollify these guerrillas and their sympathizers and bring them in from the cold, the Bush administration has pressed the al-Maliki government to pass legislation softening the decrees that excluded tens of thousands of former Baath Party members from government employment. But when the cabinet presented such a bill to parliament last week, deputies loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr banged their desks and disrupted the proceedings. Parliament adjourned with shouting and scuffling. Indeed, there is some question about whether a measure so repugnant to the Shiite and Kurdish blocs in parliament has much chance of being passed. In the deep south at Basra -- in the past cited as a more stable part of the country -- aides of Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the spiritual leader of Iraqi Shiites, have complained of a wave of some 200 assassinations. Security is not good in the city, with Shiite militias and tribal forces often battling one another for control of petroleum smuggling. Basra Province contains Iraq's only ports, and it exports most of Iraq's petroleum. The main guarantors of security in Basra and surrounding provinces had been the British, who are now leaving. By March, plans to diminish the number of British troops will leave only 2,500 of them at Basra airport, and some members of the British parliament are now worried that those troops will become increasingly vulnerable to attack as Britain's overall troop level dwindles. The 500 Australian combat troops in southern Iraq will also leave by next summer, according to newly elected Labor Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. The lack of virtually any good political news from around the country is what drives the war boosters to cite death statistics. Obviously, the people of al-Anbar Province are tired of their young men being blown up by Saudi and Moroccan jihadis, and they have mobilized to stop the foreigners. But no one is arguing that al-Anbar's roughly 1 million predominantly Sunni citizens have suddenly become enamored of the Shiite government in Baghdad. Nor has the strategy of using local Awakening Councils to combat the so-called forces of al-Qaida been nearly as successful in Diyala Province, which is mixed, with Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. Obviously, if the U.S. military wants to stop car bombings by banning vehicular traffic to certain markets, it can do so, especially using thousands of extra troops concentrated in specific areas. But although there has been a relative lull in violence in the U.S.-reinforced Baghdad, the U.S. military acknowledges that the Iraqi capital is still a very dangerous place. One question is whether the violence will explode again when U.S. forces inevitably withdraw. But the far more important question is this: How much longer can Iraq limp along as a failing state before it really begins to collapse? http://www.salon.com/opinion/featur...iraq/index.html |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'd be remiss if I didn't voice my disagreement. I don't condone the way Latin acts, and certainly think he's being childish, but I don't think he's done anything to warrant a suspension. He does level ad hominems from time to time, but to be fair he receives worse. And though he, by his own admission, scarcely puts any thought into any of his posts, I thought that this thread has represented more "effort" from him than any previous. I just can't shake the feeling that he's being lynched by a mob for being, in our view, wrong. It would definitely be nice to see some more support for his opinions. But the only thing he's hurt by refusing to supply support is, in my opinion, his own credibility. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'd be remiss if I didn't voice my disagreement. I don't condone the way Latin acts, and certainly think he's being childish, but I don't think he's done anything to warrant a suspension. He does level ad hominems from time to time, but to be fair he receives worse. And though he, by his own admission, scarcely puts any thought into any of his posts, I thought that this thread has represented more "effort" from him than any previous. I just can't shake the feeling that he's being lynched by a mob for being, in our view, wrong. It would definitely be nice to see some more support for his opinions. But the only thing he's hurt by refusing to supply support is, in my opinion, his own credibility. |
ALL HAIL LIRA - JUST AND TRUE 
Lebez, Q5echo/firestarter are just as tooth and nail conservative as latinloser, but they actually attempt to engage in constructive debate. We give all points of a view a fair shot at scrutiny and discussion. It is LL who refused to do so, refusing to discuss, inhibiting debate in the forum.
We've had Israeli conservatives on here!! We are tolerant!
| quote: |
| Originally posted by LatinLover My calculations indicate that by the end of 08 we will have a stabilized Iraq. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lira I understand you perfectly, and you know I share a very similar point of view. As a matter of fact, I've refused to suspend him (in spite of that all debate regarding this issue) numerous times, specially because I think diversity is needed, and I strongly agree with what I'd call a "Millian liberty". I wouldn't want the majority to silent him just because his opinion is different. I've been trying to overlook his hubristic attitude because it wasn't that bad... but he's turning out to be judgemental and he's now also vilifying others simply because they don't agree with him (with all this "Anti-Americanism" thing). Exactly for that reason, I'm suspending him for a couple of weeks only. But, Lebez, I do see where you're coming from, and I must say that this was a very difficult decision. I'm just doing the opposite of what I've been doing so far because I think I should be humble enough to try even if I don't seem to agree with something at first. I might be wrong after all, and this is not some kind of life-changing decision. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton ALL HAIL LIRA - JUST AND TRUE Lebez, Q5echo/firestarter are just as tooth and nail conservative as latinloser, |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov !! Have I really come across as conservative around here?? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Krypton No, I was talking to you! |
To me, if he's just here to start shit and not to even attempt any sort of dialogue, whats the point. Ban is fine for me.
I disagree with a lot of people, but discourse between us makes both more knowledgeable. This type of thread here accomplishes absolutely nothing. It has nothing to do with differing opinions, it's just plain stupidity.
Anyhow...any logical person who might be reading this thread has been presented such a wealth of information and arguments completely shutting down his opinion that I doubt letting him come back would be of any benefit to anyone...it's like having Dana Perino smile and tell everyone we're meeting our "goals and obligations" while everyone in the room spews out facts that clearly indicate otherwise...
Hell, Ann Coulter is easier to debate...
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Clovis it's like having Dana Perino smile and tell everyone we're meeting our "goals and obligations" while everyone in the room spews out facts that clearly indicate otherwise... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Clovis My calculations indicate that by the end of 08 he will still have a definition of "stabilized" that is not congruent with the situation on the ground in that pesky sonofabitch called reality. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Yeah, but Dana Perino is so cute. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I think you're missing Latin's point. The easiest way to achieve progress is to screw everything up so badly that you're starting with a really low base-line. Then any little future improvement is "progress" over the current situation! |
| quote: |
| Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), 90 days ago: "What we do can affect the outcome. But if we don't see progress on two of the three big issues -- oil revenues, de-Baathification, provincial elections -- in the next 90 days, it may not happen. And Iraq could be a failed state." Just for good measure, let's also not forget that Graham also said we need not worry about Iraq failing the vast majority of the agreed upon benchmarks for progress, because a major step forward was near. "In a matter of weeks, we're going to have a major breakthrough in Baghdad on items of political reconciliation � the benchmarks � because the Iraqi people are putting pressure on their politicians." That was Sept. 2. Oh, all right, one more. Graham told Time magazine's editors that unless there was political reconciliation in Iraq within 90 days, Americans should give up hope. "If they don't deliver in 90 days, I will openly say the chances for political reconciliation are remote," Graham said, adding, "If they can't do it by the end of the year, how do you justify a continued presence?" That was Sept. 26. For reasons that I�ve never entirely understood, the media establishment decided years ago that Graham is a �serious� lawmaker whose opinions on Iraq necessarily have merit. I have a hunch, reality notwithstanding, this won't change. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov http://talkingpointsmemo.com/ In other news, the Iraqi parliament is still on break. |
Disturbing:
| quote: |
| UK has left behind murder and chaos, says Basra police chief Blunt assessment delivered as British hand over security to Iraqis Mona Mahmoud, Maggie O'Kane and Ian Black Monday December 17, 2007 The Guardian Ministry of Defence troops in Basra. British troops parade as the control of Basra province is handed back to the Iraqis. Photograph: MoD/Getty Images The full scale of the chaos left behind by British forces in Basra was revealed yesterday as the city's police chief described a province in the grip of well-armed militias strong enough to overpower security forces and brutal enough to behead women considered not sufficiently Islamic. As British forces finally handed over security in Basra province, marking the end of 4� years of control in southern Iraq, Major General Jalil Khalaf, the new police commander, said the occupation had left him with a situation close to mayhem. "They left me militia, they left me gangsters, and they left me all the troubles in the world," he said in an in an interview for Guardian Films and ITV. Khalaf painted a very different picture from that of British officials who, while acknowledging problems in southern Iraq, said yesterday's handover at Basra airbase was timely and appropriate. Major General Graham Binns, who led British troops into the city in 2003, said the province had "begun to regain its strength". He added: "I came to rid Basra of its enemies and I now formally hand Basra back to its friends." But in the film, to be broadcast on the Guardian Unlimited website and ITV News, Khalaf lists a catalogue of failings, saying: � Basra has become so lawless that in the last three months 45 women have been killed for being "immoral" because they were not fully covered or because they may have given birth outside wedlock; � The British unintentionally rearmed Shia militias by failing to recognise that Iraqi troops were loyal to more than one authority; � Shia militia are better armed than his men and control Iraq's main port. In the interview he said the main problem the Iraqi security forces now faced was the struggle to wrest control back from the militia. He appealed for the British to help him do that: "We need the British to help us to watch our borders - both sea and land and we need their intelligence and air support and to keep training the Iraqi police." David Miliband, the foreign secretary, who attended the handover ceremony, acknowledged that the territory was not "a land of milk and honey" and promised Britain would remain a "committed friend" of Iraq. But he insisted it was the right time to hand back control. "The key conditions for the transfer of security responsibility to the Iraqi security forces are whether they are up to it: do they have the numbers? Do they have the leadership and training to provide leadership for this province? And the answer to those three questions is yes," he said. After the handover Des Browne, the defence secretary, praised British forces - 174 of whom have died since the start of the war in March 2003. "Their contribution has been outstanding and their courage inspiring," he said. A scaled-down UK force will remain in a single base at Basra airport, with a small training mission and a rapid reaction team on "overwatch". Britain now has 4,500 troops in Iraq. The prime minister, Gordon Brown, has said numbers would shrink to 2,500 by mid-2008 though those released may be redeployed to Afghanistan. Khalaf, who has survived 20 assassination attempts since he became police chief six months ago, said Britain's intentions had been good but misguided. "I don't think the British meant for this mess to happen. When they disbanded the Iraqi police and military after Saddam fell the people they put in their place were not loyal to the Iraqi government. The British trained and armed these people in the extremist groups and now we are faced with a situation where these police are loyal to their parties not their country." He said the most shocking aspect of the breakdown of law and order in Basra was the murder of women for being unIslamic. "They are being killed because they are accused of behaving in an immoral way. When they kill them they put underwear and indecent clothes on them." In his office Khalaf showed the Guardian a computer holding the files of 48 unidentified women. "Some of them have even been killed with their children because their killer says that they come out of an adulterous relationship," he said. Vince Cable, the acting Lib Dem leader, called for a timetable to bring all British troops home from Iraq, adding: "If we are handing power back to the Iraqis, why are 4,500 British troops needed for what is essentially a training mission?" |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.