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-- Trance now vs. Trance then (pre 1995)
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quote:

Originally posted by SMC Well, what the hell is it you wanna discuss if you're so uncomfortable with people having opinions different from yours? This is appreciation/"what if?"/hypothetical bs/whatever thread about early trance. You're the one coming in here doing the arguing, writing a shitload of text trying to find some stupid reason why it's supposedly "silly" to like early trance.

I don't mind people having different opinions, but when there's theads with people wanting to discuss new trance, they should be able to just as much as old trance. That's not letting others have different opinions either, because some people might like ASOT, Armin or the new stuff. I like early trance, I'm not trying to imply it sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I don't think they are lying, I think they are rather so focused on this old stuff and ignore new stuff like trance is dead and this old stuff was so much better or different. Or that this stuff was the only REAL trance. That's what I am against, not liking older music, I like this older stuff too. And I appreciate people exposing me and others to it. Or that every track having a 3 minute breakdown....that's equally not true like assumptions I have made. Not every new track released has a "3 minute breakdown" or "super-saws" or any of that crap.

have it ever crossed your mind that they maybe enjoy the older stuff more than the new stuff without hating the new stuff? I mean sure there are a few good trance releases but damn are they few nowadays. It's even rarer than a few years ago.
I don't hate new trance. I just feel there are way too few new releases to make the scene any exciting.

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 have it ever crossed your mind that they maybe enjoy the older stuff more than the new stuff without hating the new stuff? I mean sure there are a few good trance releases but damn are they few nowadays. It's even rarer than a few years ago. I don't hate new trance. I just feel there are way too few new releases to make the scene any exciting.

Then we need better producers then who can make good trance. But glamorizing in the old isn't going to somehow make things better in the new. We can learn from the old, but focusing on the past so much I feel ignores some of the newer releases which might be worth considering.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I don't mind people having different opinions, but when there's theads with people wanting to discuss new trance, they should be able to just as much as old trance. That's not letting others have different opinions either, because some people might like ASOT, Armin or the new stuff. I like early trance, I'm not trying to imply it sucks.

No one has prevented anyone from having a certain opinion. This is a message board where we exchange opinions, that's how it works.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 but focusing on the past so much I feel ignores some of the newer releases which might be worth considering.

Which releases exactly are we ignoring?

quote:

Originally posted by SMC Which releases exactly are we ignoring?

C-Quence - Impossible, Make Your Own Choice
Bissen - Exhale, Quicksand
Solar Energy - White Moon
Valve - Melancholy
Santiago Nino & Damien Heck - Red Sky (Dunderstadt Dub)
Maor Levi - Shapes (Oliver Smith Remix)
Mike Mikhajan & Mike Saint Jules - Bay Breeze
Kamil Polner - Crystal Heaven
Thomas Datt - Distance
Nick Murray - Illusion
Toby Skark - Prolight (Planisphere Remix)
Joost Van Der Vleuten - Broken Dreams
Mikka Kuisisma's entire new album (okay not ignoring, but still a great album that I agree with)

many more...

i v'e got to be honest

i considered those newer releases, and they didn't cut it for me



mainly the problems were:

- too samey amongst each other
- they seem to take themselves too seriously
- unoriginal, predictable concepts of melody and phrasing
- very unoriginal in terms of sound design (if you would have asked me when they were made I would have said 2002)



i'm not really into trance anymore these days but I can tell you what kinds of things you might know that I do like so you get an idea: (and these aren't even old school)


Steve Birch - Spaced Out
Steve Birch - Lost Forever
Space Manoevers - Stage One (Separation Mix)
Der Dritte Raum - Hale Bopp (Raumgleitersversion)
Valentino - Flying (Sultan & Tonedepth Remix)
Joker Jam - Innocence
Orbital - Halcyon
Orbital - Belfast
Haak - Bass Shuttle
Humate - 3.1 (Mijk Van Dijk Remix)
Conscious - Northern Lights (POB Remix)
V-One - Dead Cities
Lange - New Life
Paragliders - Lithium
Paragliders - Paraglide (humate's 98 mix)
Paragliders - Infra Rouge
Moogwai - Nord Song
Xian - Pachinko (Chab Dub)
Airwave - Ladyblue (1992 Flight) (pretty much any mix)
Armin van Buuren - Blue Fear
Oliver Lieb - Subraumstimulation (Sander Kleinenberg Remix)
Schiller - Das Glockenspiel (and humate remix)
Paul Van Dyk - Connected (Motomix 05)
Kamaya Painters - Summerbreeze
pretty much anything by Oliver Lieb, Art Of Trance, mwnn

other things like this

there were no competition in that time. I believe that is what killed the scene. Now there is 2 many perfect dj.

Re: Re: Re: Trance now vs. Trance then (pre 1995)

quote:

Originally posted by eRRaTiK That's assuming that they even knew what that music was. What if it were completely new to them? Now that would make it interesting.

It simply sounds dated, there's too many details that would make anyone immediately associate it with oldschool wannabe "rave", ie, 1 or 2 tracks with hoovers and chipmunk vocals, vocals samples with chicks saying senseless futuristic bullshit like "embrace yourself out there in space", etc. A mainstream crowd would never get it, and an EDM-knowledgable crowd would immediately identify it as dated and uncool.

Doesn't impede it from being totally fucking awesome music.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec i v'e got to be honest i considered those newer releases, and they didn't cut it for me mainly the problems were: - too samey amongst each other - they seem to take themselves too seriously - unoriginal, predictable concepts of melody and phrasing - very unoriginal in terms of sound design (if you would have asked me when they were made I would have said 2002) i'm not really into trance anymore these days but I can tell you what kinds of things you might know that I do like so you get an idea: (and these aren't even old school) Steve Birch - Spaced Out Steve Birch - Lost Forever Space Manoevers - Stage One (Separation Mix) Der Dritte Raum - Hale Bopp (Raumgleitersversion) Valentino - Flying (Sultan & Tonedepth Remix) Joker Jam - Innocence Orbital - Halcyon Orbital - Belfast Haak - Bass Shuttle Humate - 3.1 (Mijk Van Dijk Remix) Conscious - Northern Lights (POB Remix) V-One - Dead Cities Lange - New Life Paragliders - Lithium Paragliders - Paraglide (humate's 98 mix) Paragliders - Infra Rouge Moogwai - Nord Song Xian - Pachinko (Chab Dub) Airwave - Ladyblue (1992 Flight) (pretty much any mix) Armin van Buuren - Blue Fear Oliver Lieb - Subraumstimulation (Sander Kleinenberg Remix) Schiller - Das Glockenspiel (and humate remix) Paul Van Dyk - Connected (Motomix 05) Kamaya Painters - Summerbreeze pretty much anything by Oliver Lieb, Art Of Trance, mwnn other things like this

They are ok, some of them were quite nice melodic tracks actually. I find the majority of todays epic trance releases boring and unimaginative as well. I think though that this is due to "me" (possibly "us") and not due to the "sound" per se. I think this is the problem with most TAs in here. They were once crazy about the saw-leads etc. but at one point though, their brain got "habituated" to these specific sounds. After that point, this once ecstatic sound didn't have the same impact on them. As a result they become enraged towards the same sound that once made them feel like they have a mystical experience or something. Its exactly like a heroin addict whose brain gets "habituated" to a specific amount of heroin and craves for more.


In trance, it seems that you can't get more "Super" and fater then the "super-saw". You can't get longer breakdowns. You can't get more complicated melodic lead-lines. I think that current tracks are over-produced (to the point that they become too "clinical"-everything in the right place-and boring). As a result, the older trance fan (circa 99-00-01 etc...) can't get a "fix" from today's trance and as a result he/she hates it. Hence, he/she starts saying thinks that the scene is dead and about "how much better things were back then" (be it 02, 99, or 93). He/she finally embraces another form of EDM and make it his/her "holy grail"-the musical saviour of his/her taste. At he same time, the older "trance sound" (the one that used to give the listener ecstatic experiences) is "godified".


This ofcourse is for people who want to "belong" somewhere, who want to have a specific taste and a specific attitude. The same EDM scene which is related to DJs playing a "Specific" sound reinforces this attitude. Furthermore,big-room epic trance djs are considered "mainstream" as hell and hence "uncool" whereas "small-room" techno djs are "always underground" and hence "cooler" (despite the fact that techno music is no more complicated in comparison to epic trance or any trance for that matter). As a result, many people somehow find the idea of listening (or spinning) (to) "epic trance", "Deep techno", "dubstep" and "electro-house" at the same time problematic, or strange or even "not right". Its like performing a sin of some sorts...


Truth said, the structure of today's epic/melodic trance sound is identical to the one of 98-99. To be fair though, today's tracks-like the ones that Spirit5 posted-are more complicated melodic-wise in comparison to the 98-99 anthems. The rhythm is more de-emphasized in comparison to the 99 sound (which was similarly simple but more "pumpin")but the melodies are not so obvious. IMO current young producers produce some quite nice complex and intelligent lead-lines. Its just that they are performed by the same instruments (saw presets lol)and hence they automatically elicit a negative reaction from the older listener (like me). If you manage to not pay attention to the negative stereotyping of current trance and listen to the melody for what it is (consider it as a melody not anothen boring saw-lead) you might find yourself appreciating more tracks then you might expect. Nowadays, i personally don't listen to a lot of EDM in general, but i appreciate a good melodic EDM track (be it trance, techno or deep house) every now and then. If it sounds good to me i like it. I don't care if Tiesto played it or something.

Basically as I've said before..I got into trance because I liked the melodies, and I like this newer stuff because I like the melodies. I could care less if it has this rhythm, because when I want rhythmic music, I have plenty of house and techno and breaks to choose from (and progressive trance).

Melodic Trance is just fun to listen to and dance to. You just need to appreciate the melodies...be them simplistic or more complex. Trance has and is more about the melodies nowadays than it is about the percussion or some atmospheric elements....there's stuff out there like that (deeper or prog trance) but if you just want something with a fairly decent melody..you'll have no problem finding that. And I hate the super-saw synth lines just like everyone else does..it's annoying to hear those all the time, that's why I try to find tracks that don't have it as much..that stereotypical sound.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Basically as I've said before..I got into trance because I liked the melodies, and I like this newer stuff because I like the melodies. I could care less if it has this rhythm, because when I want rhythmic music, I have plenty of house and techno and breaks to choose from (and progressive trance). Melodic Trance is just fun to listen to and dance to. You just need to appreciate the melodies...be them simplistic or more complex. Trance has and is more about the melodies nowadays than it is about the percussion or some atmospheric elements....there's stuff out there like that (deeper or prog trance) but if you just want something with a fairly decent melody..you'll have no problem finding that. And I hate the super-saw synth lines just like everyone else does..it's annoying to hear those all the time, that's why I try to find tracks that don't have it as much..that stereotypical sound.

Yea ok truth said some of the melodies are nice. Another problem though (in addition to the similarity of used sounds) is that while some melodies are complex enough, they all somehow try to evoke the same "pseudo-new-agey-summery-nostalgia" feel making the tracks sound a bit fake and cheap. What about depressing, melancholic (real melancholic not pseudo-melancholic) darker melodies (or even happier melodies)? For example listen to that track by Resistance-D in Youtube:


Resistance- D- "Eclipse"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUNxhycYifQ


The melody is spacey and dark (and thank god not hard. You don't have to be "hard" in order to be "darker". In contrast a "gentle" track can sound beautifully dark. Like this one IMO). Why don't current producers make such music? Its probably due to the over-commercialization that poses constraints in experimentation and freedom in composition.


Another example:


LSG- "Hearts"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJByxd88lIc


Here the melody is more "dramatic". Truth said, you rarely get such "true" tracks these days. This is why some of us-including me-prefer these older sounds. Because even more simple, they are more "true", have more direction, more artistic freedom and a larger variety of sounds.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Yea ok truth said some of the melodies are nice. Another problem though (in addition to the similarity of used sounds) is that while some melodies are complex enough, they all somehow try to evoke the same "pseudo-new-agey-summery-nostalgia" feel making the tracks sound a bit fake and cheap. What about depressing, melancholic (real melancholic not pseudo-melancholic) darker melodies (or even happier melodies)?

Thats why they have tech trance (a lot of it tends to be darker than epic trance), and there are a lot of releases on Green Martian are quite dark (and Airwave does make darker music mixed with lighter), and then you have Electronic Elements..which has releases (albient more progressive stuff) with darker melodies. But typically epic trance (which is sometimes also called uplifting trance) is that..uplifting....so it tends to be more positive, happy, party music rather than more serious, deep or dark like other stuff.

Mark Otten - So Seren (Menno de Jong Fierce Dub)

other than the minor use of the breakdown melody, doesn't sound too "happy" to me...

Menno de Jong - Nolthando

Another track this guy posted that I forgot to mention, and this doesn't super happy. No super saw. Don't see what is wrong with a track that sounds like this. It's not as out there as the earlier stuff you put, like that LSG track, but it's epic..melodic trance without sounding exactly like the later 90s when super-saws starting becoming popular. It has evolved. Listen to the bassline, the kick drum,the melody..everything sounds crisper, more refined, more "futuristic" if you will, not quite the same bombastic melody like heard in say "Out Of The Blue".

And then there's this....it's a new tune, it doesn't have this long 3 minute breakdown and it very much has similarities in sound to the old stuff (from the early 90s).

Progression - Different Day, Different Light

And then this song..one of my favorites, is a bit "spacey", "out there" but without being so out there it's not even enjoyable/listenable and it's got a bittersweetness to it that makes it almost melancholy...to me it's way more evocative than those tracks you mentioned. They aren't bad, but to me..don't come close to the emotional intensity and feeling like your in another world like this one...more like some f**ed up drug trip than some dream world.

Mark Otten - Mushroom Therapy (Lightscape Mix)

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Thats why they have tech trance (a lot of it tends to be darker than epic trance), and there are a lot of releases on Green Martian are quite dark (and Airwave does make darker music mixed with lighter), and then you have Electronic Elements..which as releases (albient more progressive stuff) with darker melodies. But typically epic trance (which is sometimes also called uplifting trance) is that..uplifting....so it tends to be more positive, happy, party music rather than more serious, deep or dark like other stuff.

You said it-"tech trance", i find tech trance terrible though, due to the fact that it tries to be "dark" by using all these harsh sounds and fat leads leading to a "kitsch" rather then elegantly "Dark" result, like Resistance D tracks. And ok..electronic elements i don't know...i find the majority of EE releases extremely boring. In most of the times i find the melodies generic as hell (rather then dark). IMO they all have this markus schulz sound which is ideal for putting someone to sleep!

Also, some of the best "uplifting" trance tunes have darker, more dramatic melodies (this is why the term "uplifting" is stupid as hell and i personally use "epic" or "melodic"). Eg Corsten's remix of Orbit's remix of Barber's Adagio for Strings (which is considered by some of the BEST epic trance tune ever), or Push's "Universal nation" or Firewall's (Lange) "Reflections" or Paul van Dyk's "words" or "love stimulation" by Humate...

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN You said it-"tech trance", i find tech trance terrible though, due to the fact that it tries to be "dark" by using all these harsh sounds and fat leads leading to a "kitsch" rather then elegantly "Dark" result, like Resistance D tracks. And ok..electronic elements i don't know...i find the majority of EE releases extremely boring. In most of the times i find the melodies generic as hell (rather then dark). IMO they all have this markus schulz sound which is ideal for putting someone to sleep! Also, some of the best "uplifting" trance tunes have darker, more dramatic melodies (this is why the term "uplifting" is stupid as hell and i personally use "epic" or "melodic"). Eg Corsten's remix of Orbit's remix of Barber's Adagio for Strings (which is considered by some of the BEST epic trance tune ever), or Push's "Universal nation" or Firewall's (Lange) "Reflections" or Paul van Dyk's "words" or "love stimulation" by Humate...

I'm not a huge tech trance fan either but adding some to sets does add some "darkness" or "edginess" esp on the dancefloor in a set with more uplifting, melodic music. And Electronic Elements is a mixed bag, but they do have a lot of progressive house (that isn't quite Markus Schulz prog) which is quite dark.

And I love all of those tracks. and Micro de Govia does this very well. But I think some other tracks (newer) can as well..as long as you look. Solar Energy's "White Moon" is somewhat dark and dramatic, but still has some upliftiness (if that is even a word). That Progression track I posted is really "tech-trance" but the tech-trance sound I like...trippy, dark, dramatic and somewhat melodic. Not dumbed down or techier hard trance or epic trance like some of it is..and Maor Levi does some pretty good tech trance, and Mandy Reid as well.

LET'S WRITE A BOOK

or not.

listening to Grace - Down To Earth (Oakenfold & Osborne Dub Mix) really great tune from '96 without the silly vocals

quote:

Originally posted by dj christian listening to Grace - Down To Earth (Oakenfold & Osborne Dub Mix) really great tune from '96 without the silly vocals

angeles mix for me

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 It's the feeling that pisses me off since I started posting on here that what I like isn't trance. It's like living a lie, but is what I like THAT different from what others like as well? Am I somehow in the minority? It's like a "trance" producer I used to know..whose also a DJ from my local area, who told me I couldn't mix...when I had been mixing for two years and thought I had it right. I felt like crap, it's the same with being told either what you like sucks or isn't what it actually is but it's what is pretty well established that it is.

So basically what this all comes down to is as follows:

You were stung by the Ishkur-lead anti-epic trance rhetoric that latter-day trance isn't "real trance", and because you're a pussy you were unable to shake off any strongly worded contrary opinion, which instead festered inside your mind like a splinter to the point it became an affront to your musical tastes. As a result, you now instinctively feel the need to put down any support of "real trance" while simultaneously championing latter-day trance, thus validating yourself. This is evidenced by the fact that you constantly refer to things like "experience" and "being there" with the implication that pro-"real trance" listeners don't fulfill them and thus the "real" in "real trance" appreciation is actually a fallacy. Also notable is that you mentioned Ishkur in this thread and the fact you seem to blindly assign his ultra-opinionated views onto anyone who in any way supports "real trance".

So congratulations. You had your insecure, unconfident opinion shaken and now you'll spend your entire forum existence trying to define it in contrast with a stronger, more confident perspective, written to wind you up in the first place.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Trance now vs. Trance then (pre 1995)

quote:

Originally posted by noikeee It simply sounds dated... and an EDM-knowledgable crowd would immediately identify it as dated and uncool..

I get what you're saying and here's a thought, even today's music is dated coz it sounds like... today's music.

Not everyone attending a club/festival environment will be EDM-knowledgeable, and those people wouldn't give a stuff whether it's dated or not. If it's good music it will get them moving, and that's what it's all about.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trance now vs. Trance then (pre 1995)

quote:

Originally posted by eRRaTiK I get what you're saying and here's a thought, even today's music is dated coz it sounds like... today's music. Not everyone attending a club/festival environment will be EDM-knowledgeable, and those people wouldn't give a stuff whether it's dated or not. If it's good music it will get them moving, and that's what it's all about.

I don't think "dated" is necessarily a bad thing, and if it is, well, then "dated" is simply in the mind of those who don't really appreciate the qualities that in their view make something "dated".

If that makes any sense?

For example, i love 80s new wave. I love the sound of the 80s, the loud snares and overuse of reverb. There are people who say that those things sound dated, with a negative connotation.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J So basically what this all comes down to is as follows: You were stung by the Ishkur-lead anti-epic trance rhetoric that latter-day trance isn't "real trance", and because you're a pussy you were unable to shake off any strongly worded contrary opinion, which instead festered inside your mind like a splinter to the point it became an affront to your musical tastes. As a result, you now instinctively feel the need to put down any support of "real trance" while simultaneously championing latter-day trance, thus validating yourself. This is evidenced by the fact that you constantly refer to things like "experience" and "being there" with the implication that pro-"real trance" listeners don't fulfill them and thus the "real" in "real trance" appreciation is actually a fallacy. Also notable is that you mentioned Ishkur in this thread and the fact you seem to blindly assign his ultra-opinionated views onto anyone who in any way supports "real trance". So congratulations. You had your insecure, unconfident opinion shaken and now you'll spend your entire forum existence trying to define it in contrast with a stronger, more confident perspective, written to wind you up in the first place.

nail on head

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