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-- Theory why female djs and producers are so horrible...
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Originally posted by julien2 Partially true. The only person who really made sense in this thread is eletrikal. Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Women, in society, are driven towards girlish attitude, in the "industry" wants them to be divas, pop idols, and such. From a very young age, they are conditionned to certain expectations of their gender, just like men are. They are not worse at music than men Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Biologically, there are no cognitive differences Culture > Nature Culture > Nature Culture > Nature The conclusion of the original poster. Even though his opinion might reflect a reality of music industry today, the difference between men and women in music is not biological (cognitive), it is cultural. All in all, you are just plain wrong

Wow, this guy who is one of the biggest trolls of TA actually made a valid and intelligent post!


I have to 100% agree with you here, although i have to say that there are some biological differences between the male and female brains/minds (and hence cognitive differences). It is well established that men are better in visuo-spatial tasks (such as screen rotations and mental scanning tasks) whereas women have better abilities in processing verbal material and as a result, can read and recall written material (or the content of written material) better then men. There is an evolutionary reason for such a difference. In hunter-gatherer societies, men (or male hominids) should use their visuo-spatial skills in order to navigate and hunt in an efficient way. On the other side, women should develop social bonds (in order to have the support from the other members of the tribe in nurturing children etc.) and hence should use their language skills in order to succeed in inter-personal communication.


This seems to be the reason that women do actually seem to be worst in maths than men (at least to some degree-maybe a small degree but still a present one). Mathematical ability in mainly based on spatial processing (whilst the digits are represented in verbal areas as symbols, the transformations between these digits-e.g. a subtraction-is actually a spatial process based in the parietal lobe) and hence, to be worst in spatial tasks makes one to be worst in mathematical ability as well. It must be stated here that the number of women in engineering degrees linearly increase, leading to the notion that whilst such a difference (spatial-numerical-mathematical) exists, it doesn't seem to have a significant influence in university (or job) performance.


Despite these basic and small cognitive differences, there are no actual differences between the two sexes. So yes, any observed differences are due (and have always been-the argument for why there were no great female composers or painters is obviously stupid as hell) to societal factors. Hence narture > nature in this case.

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Originally posted by nefardec this is important - the difference between sex and gender... in various production classes I took at college there were always far more guys and their projects tended to be far more involved and sophisticated. it's funny too, because a lot of the girls always did vocal or instrumental pieces with simple computer accompaniment or some computer effect that would modify their vocal/instrumental performance... guys tended to go for all-out production and invention and there were several great projects like MIDI beachballs made from motion sensors and bluetooth devices, laser harps, etc, etc Personally I feel it's a deep rooted cultural/gender division that comes from the expectations society has for girls growing up compared to guys, and the sorts of tools/toys/games they use during development. For instance, when I was young my parents used to give me electrical kits and mechanical toy kits and I would build these things from a young age, disassembling them, learning about signal path, logic, etc I had my first computer at a very young age and used to dig into the editing tools of every program I could.. I learned photoshop and illustrator when i was six years old because my father was a graphic designer and I wanted to be just like him.. I think there was in general a cultural expectation for boys to tinker with things and to create, and for girls to consume. Do I think this is right? absolutely not, but I don't think you can deny it.. I don't think this has anything to do with biology.

You posted exactly the same thing as me, but in a far more intelligible way ! I agree completely with you.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Wow, this guy who is one of the biggest trolls of TA actually made a valid and intelligent post! I have to 100% agree with you here, although i have to say that there are some biological differences between the male and female brains/minds (and hence cognitive differences). It is well established that men are better in visuo-spatial tasks (such as screen rotations and mental scanning tasks) whereas women have better abilities in processing verbal material and as a result, can read and recall written material (or the content of written material) better then men. There is an evolutionary reason for such a difference. In hunter-gatherer societies, men (or male hominids) should use their visuo-spatial skills in order to navigate and hunt in an efficient way. On the other side, women should develop social bonds (in order to have the support from the other members of the tribe in nurturing children etc.) and hence should use their language skills in order to succeed in inter-personal communication. This seems to be the reason that women do actually seem to be worst in maths than men (at least to some degree-maybe a small degree but still a present one). Mathematical ability in mainly based on spatial processing (whilst the digits are represented in verbal areas as symbols, the transformations between these digits-e.g. a subtraction-is actually a spatial process based in the parietal lobe) and hence, to be worst in spatial tasks makes one to be worst in mathematical ability as well. It must be stated here that the number of women in engineering degrees linearly increase, leading to the notion that whilst such a difference (spatial-numerical-mathematical) exists, it doesn't seem to have a significant influence in university (or job) performance. Despite these basic and small cognitive differences, there are no actual differences between the two sexes. So yes, any observed differences are due (and have always been-the argument for why there were no great female composers or painters is obviously stupid as hell) to societal factors. Hence narture > nature in this case.

Throlling is only one of the many services I offer.

Oh, and yeah, your post is bulls eye. However, in the last sentence, I guess you meant culture > nature

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Originally posted by julien2 Throlling is only one of the many services I offer. Oh, and yeah, your post is bulls eye. However, in the last sentence, I guess you meant culture > nature

No its "nature vs. nurture", this is how the saying goes in psychology and behavioural biology. Nature meaning genes whereas nurture goes for the upbringing-the influence of the environment on the developing individual. "Culture" is partly correct, since whilst "culture" is an "element" of the environment (an element that influences indirectly the "nurtured" child through its parents), it is not the only one.

Im sure many Male producer were told they would never make it and yet they persisted, and this is were, I dont think those cultural difference really make a difference cause it's Not many people that can become great producer artist or specialist in something. It take dedication and a strong self. I dont think it's reasonable to say that it's easier for a man, It's not easy for both.

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Originally posted by HaeD Im sure many Male producer were told they would never make it and yet they persisted, and this is were, I dont think those cultural difference really make a difference cause it's Not many people that can become great producer artist or specialist in something. It take dedication and a strong self. I dont think it's reasonable to say that it's easier for a man, It's not easy for both.

yea i agree. i dont think its easier for a man, the original posters comments sound pretty sexest to me...their are alot of great female dj/producers out their.

Firstly, there are inherent differences between men and women, due to evolution honing our bodies to do particular jobs. Men were designed to hunt for food, which is why men have less pain receptors and are naturally stronger. Women were designed to have and raise children: they have more body fat and so forth. These differences extend to how our minds work: men have good spacial abilities necessary for hunting, women have better social skills.

That said, I don't think these differences have any real part in why there are far more male producers and DJs in electronic music. I think the answer can be found simply by looking at the male/female ratio on TA or indeed in this thread. The simple answer seems to be that electronic dance music is simply more popular with men, for whatever reason.

Lovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.

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Originally posted by RJT Lovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.

Yeah this is quite educational.

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Originally posted by UWM Yeah this is quite educational.

I know that's why I come to the MD.

Seemed appropriate.

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Originally posted by AustralianGQ yea i agree. i dont think its easier for a man, the original posters comments sound pretty sexest to me...their are alot of great female dj/producers out their.

and then we have such brilliant examples of backwards evolution as yourself. You should be proud, it's about the only thing you'll ever win.

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Originally posted by julien2 You posted exactly the same thing as me, but in a far more intelligible way ! I agree completely with you.

haha, well I suppose I was agreeing with your post.

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Originally posted by RJTLovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.

admittedly, it's a stupid topic that inspires some stupid posts, but is there anything wrong with just talking about something?

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Originally posted by RJT Lovely to see all the human physiologists and evolutionary biologists coming out of the woodwork on this one.

Wominz are for COOKING!

their small brains can't handle it. it's science

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Originally posted by nefardec admittedly, it's a stupid topic that inspires some stupid posts, but is there anything wrong with just talking about something?

Nah - it's just funny to see some folks make statements that essentially amount to little more than theoretical explanations for observable differences in sex and gender as if they were fact.

And you've gotta give at least this to me - there's far more hilarious idiocy in here than worthwhile discussion of sec/gender contrast.

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Originally posted by RJT Nah - it's just funny to see some folks make statements that essentially amount to little more than theoretical explanations for observable differences in sex and gender as if they were fact. And you've gotta give at least this to me - there's far more hilarious idiocy in here than worthwhile discussion of sec/gender contrast.

"Men are better in spatial tasks and women in verbal processing"-this statement is actually not something that some of us got out of our minds. It is well supported by numerous experiments which were conducted over the last 50 years or so. Men are better in spatial rotation experiments and women have a superior performance in both verbal short- and long-term memory tasks (verbal span). Now, the REASON for such a FACTUAL difference COULD be cultural, but additional evidence supports that such a distinction is biological, and hence has evolutionary origins.


The recent branch of "evolutionary psychology" (ex-sociobiology) supports that if a cognitive or behavioural function has a genetic basis then it probably had an evolutionary advantage in the past. How do we understand that a cognitive or behavioural function has a genetic (and not environmental) basis? If it has, then such a function must have a corresponding "module" in the brain which is there right from the start (the birth) of an individual and should mature with the corresponding chemical changes of the body. Now, male babies with various syndromes that under-expose their bodies to androgens (male hormones) are WORSE in the spatial processing tasks mentioned before. On the cotrary, female babies over-exposed to androgens have superior spatial processing. These data suggest that the observed (factual) superior spatial processing of males has a genetic-and hence-evolutionary basis. Furthermore, the superior verbal processing of women is probably an epiphenomenon of their superior emotional/inter-personal processing in general. Girls at the age of 6 and 7 are more accurate then men in understanding the expressed emotion of a pictured face meaning that females are superior in social-cognitive skills such as empathy. These are correlated with their superior verbal scores. Young females have superior verbal spans in comparison to young males.

Since such differences are proven, and since a genetic basis of such differences is proven, then such differences must have an evolutionary basis. The strongest evolutionary explanation for such a factual observed difference is the "division of labour" hypothesis mentioned before. Through thousand of years of natural selection, better hunters had better visuo-spatial and logic-driven skills and hence were selected, and better mothers had better social/interpersonal/verbal/emotional skills and hence were selected. So, it is little more then "theoretical explanations for observed gender differences". Everything in science is "Theoretical", the key is to have facts that support the "theory" and in the current case, such facts exist. It is not bad to have an ACTUAL conversation in the music discussion section from time to time eh? I mean it doesn't make you feel sick or something?

It's called class society and the separation of sexes for purpose of oppression, just one less group to worry about and keep separated against others, ergo society has been male dominated because it just worked out that way, stronger, testosterone drive, situation, and all other factors, its connected and related to class oppression. Thus we naturally have a strong repression of any ideas that had came from women, how can we know unless we read or get the information from another source, which can only be in the form of information or mouth to mouth, which consequently is essentially culture. But with recent advancement and the current generation we live in at a time, more and more naturally realize we are all equal, i.e after WWI, WWII, etc in America we see women can do the exact labor as men, blacks are not animals, are not strangers, the person you hate turns out to be just like you, when all capitalist economic systems fail there will be nothing but the bare separation of class, those who have been exploited and those who have done the exploiting�along with their ignorant followers and other pawns of the devil. We are equal, females have lower test we have higher. They have pussy for purpose of naturally continuing the circle of energy into new form, like everything, they even have what is equal to the penis, the clitoris. We can't exist without the other; it�s that simple, at least for higher forms of living energy. Some animals walk along the border of �life� and �non-life� by being asexual or males who are able to reproduce, or viruses, which naturally seek out reproduction but are not made of cells but do carry genes, dna, and evolve by natural selection (wikipedia.) But socially at the moment women have lived under oppression for at least 10K years, just as the entire working class, or almost any oppressed class, etc. it can change though, at one point men and women were equal in pre-historic societies and is absolutely possible but only in a communistic society....or death, after all, this simply exists because you and I exist. It's dualism revealing itself once again in everything; the answer is there is no answer, at least not through information, i.e. words, information, comprehension, data. You can only read because you have eyes, you can only hear because you have ears, take them away and you left in darkness, take away touch, feeling, relax in numbness of which you come. Take it all away and you have everything that made it up to begin with, which is just chemicals and energy, but you are aware, and everything that made you will make something else, or "nothing" as we are scientifically aware of dark energy, which we can not see or completely understand it but it is there, it makes up � of our universe. There is no one to be aware, not separated at least, nor together, it just is, incomprehensible.


Anyway, just listening to James Holden at the Controls ranting off into b.s.

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Originally posted by montana here's my two cents about female producers/dj's etc, since there are a couple of types of them, actually, no you have two. you have the ones that tries to get through without using their looks or the fact they are women to get booked etc etc. these women will get heavily critised for being crap dj's/producers and will be rated ugly even if they are attractive just because they don't want to demean their selves by playing the game. then you have the other type, women who use their looks (even to extreme measures like 'portia surreal' who would never get booked normalwise). these women basicly ruin for the first type, especially clueless bints like portia surreal, and girls who just wave their hair and pout their red lips while the tracks aren't mixed properly or even go together at all etc etc. these women don't really do anything for the progress in a really maledominated business, infact they help the blokes out more than the girls. when it come to production, there is alot of guys who fuel this aswell by helping 'the pretty girl' with their tracks and this helps to fuel the critism that females can't produce and need someone else to do it for them while they are putting on more makeup etc. you have people like tatana that runs her own label and built a moderatly good reputation as a dj while all her tracks are produced by someone else (just to name some: reverb, andy prinz, dj spoke)

Plus 10000000000000000000000000000 %

I also think this applies to other stuff in life too.

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