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quote:

donnybrasco wrote on Today 17:53: Debating you and your little dorky friends about your conspiracy theories is all good and well, but I'll choose when and where I put up personal information about myself on the Internet, not anyone else! So take the reference to my age that's in your post (Junior's quote) OUT of the quote. I already told him to take it out of his post too. It violates board rules anyway...

lol

i like how donny keeps using the word debate like he knows the first thing about debating

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M Interesting documentary.

it's probably my favorite, related to war/911

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Aawww...little Richie got his "feewings" hurt, so now he has to resort to name-calling. "Chickenhawk", lol. So I take it then that you and Junior were in the military, and you've both seen your fair share of fighting, right? Why don't you wait to meet me in person before you decide if I'm as "chickenhawk" as you like to think?

i find this ironic considering you jumped into this thread head-first calling people who had a different opinion from you idiotic. people who resort to ad hominem attacks do so because they are frustrated with their inability to articulate their thoughts or because they realize their viewpoint doesn't hold water on its own merit. idiot is an ad hominem attack. chickenhawk is not. chickenhawk is a real term that refers to a pundit or politician who sits around beating war drums on the sideline, but has never served in a war or has avoided serving in a war. like i said before, look into getting a dictionary.

quote:

Originally posted by R!CH

[/QUOTE]
You're banned, both for posting this, and for your comment that it would be better for Americans not to live longer...

quote:

Originally posted by R!CH (deleted content)

You are really something else, you know that??

My reason for wanting it down has to do with identity theft, which I've had happen to me. I try to keep as much personal information about myself OFF the internet for this reason. You're more petty than a little child, seriously.

Whatever...it's in the hands of the Administrator now.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco "Rational" being the key word. The 9-11 conspiracy theory is SO absurd, SO outlandish, on SO MANY levels, it's beyond being open to "rational" debate, IMHO. Well, "for the record" grammar and spelling, are two different things. You might want to use "dictionary.com" to look up the difference.

Gawd... so we're coming to this...

Ok.. you corrected my grammar... I was correcting your word definition (since you had thought I was misusing rabid)... Never did I say or imply they were the same.
*EDIT* I actually see how you could've gotten confused... it WAS poorly worded. My apologies.

Second, isn't it just as outlandish to turn the other way and say EVERYTHING is fine... nothing is wrong... all just coincidence?

[bear in mind that I never made any indication which side of the fence I sat on]

that short video was just too stupid for words. when are some of you internet sleuths gonna grow up? idiots the lot of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Gen3r4l1ty Second, isn't it just as outlandish to turn the other way and say EVERYTHING is fine... nothing is wrong... all just coincidence?

Yes, it is fine to turn away when everything in a given situation is as it appears to be. When it can't be refuted by both common sense, as well as a multitude of facts, then any further merit one would lend to that which is irrefutable would be, by definition; "Outlandish".

Hi Packistani! I like seeing you in the one type of thread we can both agree on!

It makes me respect your opinions on other matters, because at least you are not insane! (albeit, just plain wrong sometimes, lol )

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov How did this steaming pile of a thread end up in our laps?

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatniko

Not sure. Some mod must of thought it would be funny to drop it here. Also, why did you drop the V from your name?

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Also, why did you drop the V from your name?

Swamper pwned me.

This is an interesting listen. Interview with an independent investigative journalist.


http://www.guba.com/watch/300010397...tep=0&fields=23


Also, I don't know if anyone knows about this, but a couple days ago, at the National Diet of Japan Councilor Yukihisa Jukita of the democratic party of Japan questioned 9/11 in front of the Prime Minister.

Here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1WkfkvkX2E

This is huge.

Also, you ALL need to checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC...feature=related

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 This is huge.

give me one reason this is in any way, "huge". haha. look mate, the 9/11 movement is nothing. inconsequential. meaningless. get it?

there are a few hundred morons across the globe that have been fooled by all the intellectual dishonesty.

there will only ever be a few idiots at any one time believing this nonsense.

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]




I don't know, I always thought the 9/11 people were whackos, but I have been doing a lot of digging of my own to educate myself about the world, and whats going on. I've been "turned on" if you will.

We all have plenty of clear cut reasons why we should be skeptical, and at least seek another answer. Most people are sheeple and have no idea what their importance on this planet is and just takes what is fed to them by the media and others in power, instead of taking the initiative to gain the knowledge themselves, and question everything.

The growing apathy, and ignorance of people around the world is terrible. I see it on the freeway in traffic everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 [[ LINK REMOVED ]] I don't know, I always thought the 9/11 people were whackos, but I have been doing a lot of digging of my own to educate myself about the world, and whats going on. I've been "turned on" if you will. We all have plenty of clear cut reasons why we should be skeptical, and at least seek another answer. Most people are sheeple and have no idea what their importance on this planet is and just takes what is fed to them by the media and others in power, instead of taking the initiative to gain the knowledge themselves, and question everything. The growing apathy, and ignorance of people around the world is terrible. I see it on the freeway in traffic everyday.

some of what you say here is quite true. but there is a difference between being skeptical/searching for answers, and swallowing ridiculous, unsubstantiated notions that simply do not make ANY sense to the rational observer.

in terms of their methods for finding and arguing the "truth", they sit about the same place as creationists and holocaust deniers.

i dont understand why people can believe the most outlandish ideas without a shred of evidence. it boggles my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN some of what you say here is quite true. but there is a difference between being skeptical/searching for answers, and swallowing ridiculous, unsubstantiated notions that simply do not make ANY sense to the rational observer.

Who is the rational observer? What about you? Can you think for yourself?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN in terms of their methods for finding and arguing the "truth", they sit about the same place as creationists and holocaust deniers.

Never said the holocaust never happened, in fact I see it happening again. The evidence is clear if you look for it, and history always repeats itself.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i dont understand why people can believe the most outlandish ideas without a shred of evidence. it boggles my mind.

I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 Who is the rational observer? What about you? Can you think for yourself?

ANY rational observer. anyone capable of seeing through obvious bullshit.

quote:

Never said the holocaust never happened, in fact I see it happening again. The evidence is clear if you look for it, and history always repeats itself.

you dont understand. i am saying the 9/11 arguments use the same methods of inquiry as holocaust deniers and creationists.

quote:

I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

because 9/11 conspiracy theories don't deserve a "polite and civil" discussion. that is reserved for ideas that make sense and have evidence. they ARE conspiracies. and they ARE crazy thoughts. its got nothing to do with having an "open mind", its about whether you are attracted to the fantastic or not.

ideas that are devoid of logic or evidence do not deserve the same respect as those that do. this is not an even playing field for all notions great and small. bring the evidence and bring the logic if you wish to pull the 9/11 troofer debacle above astrology and tarot readings.

coming up to 7 years later and the "movement" has produced NO evidence and still doesn't make ANY sense.

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

well first off it's offensive but thats irrelevant.

you said it yourself. it's outlandish.

after all the tests, and all of the scrutiny it remains "outlandish".

in order to trancend the "outlandish/civil discussion" divide it must pass the test of simple rationality. it doesn't. it was tried well before you and it fails miserably.

...so get used to being singled out for offensive and outlandish points-of-view until you can come up with another cohesive and rational explaination for what cullminated on that morning in September other than what's been widely accepted.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ANY rational observer. anyone capable of seeing through obvious bullshit.

I'd like to know what makes things so obvious to you, and then how you call yourself rational without trying to look at the other side without prejudice. You couldn't have listened to the material I presented to bring your opinions of it to this conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you dont understand. i am saying the 9/11 arguments use the same methods of inquiry as holocaust deniers and creationists.

You don't understand. I am saying that you are quick to accept that those types of people are different from you. You've given into the separation, believing that because those groups of people think differently than you do on some things makes it all the more believable to you when someone says tells you that they use the same "methods" as those other groups. We are human beings. Creatures on a planet with no clue why as to why we are here, and some of us are in search of the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN because 9/11 conspiracy theories don't deserve a "polite and civil" discussion. that is reserved for ideas that make sense and have evidence. they ARE conspiracies. and they ARE crazy thoughts.

Yep, thats rational.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its got nothing to do with having an "open mind", its about whether you are attracted to the fantastic or not.

This to me sounds like the idea of what open minded means... Without the "fantastic" to make intelligent ones think, the earth would be flat.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ideas that are devoid of logic or evidence do not deserve the same respect as those that do. this is not an even playing field for all notions great and small. bring the evidence and bring the logic if you wish to pull the 9/11 troofer debacle above astrology and tarot readings. coming up to 7 years later and the "movement" has produced NO evidence and still doesn't make ANY sense.

So lets say for instance that there was a Murder. And we as people were trying to find the real killer. We find that a group of people could have POSSIBLY had something to do with, and therefore we called them suspect. Now say for sake of example, that this "group" released a 900 page book on how they didn't do it. So you are telling me we should read all 900 pages and believe every single page, when in logic, we've already proven a reason to disbelieve, and therefore discredit what said "suspect" has to say? I suppose this is the reason why OJ is free.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo well first off it's offensive but thats irrelevant.

This is not irrelevant... but I assume that you think building 7 is irrelevant too. Just because its offensive to think, means that it is hard to understand, hard to talk about, and hard to even imagine differently than what was "given" to us as information by the powers that be. That already turns off the idea of open, thought provoking discussion completely due to modern society's inherent apathy... all most people need is their tvs, their computers, their cars, their pools, their parties, and their income to keep paying off debt, and their worries all float away and their world gets smaller and smaller. Because of this, it becomes some wild "conspiracy theory", and no other person will talk about it because thats what crazys talk about.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you said it yourself. it's outlandish.

So is religion, people talk about that all day long.

And the Earth would still be flat today if people kept perpetuating this type of "critical" thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo after all the tests, and all of the scrutiny it remains "outlandish".

This sounds like the same garbage being shouted at impressionable minds during the salem witch trials.

Do you ever wonder about things like why do girls shave their legs, and why having a shaved cat is sexy? Do you ever wonder why you or where you started thinking those things, when the opposite was true for generations before us? Do you look and think about trends in media, in society, and the some of the ignorance of people these days, and the stupid stories we all read in the news? Do you ever look at history, or even different cultures today and wonder why they are running around in a jungle naked and "free" only having to do only what's needed to survive as a human, the creatures we are? Do you ever think of yourself as anything more than just that? Do you ever think about why we, or most people work 9-5, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year? Isnt it just enough to work until the job is done, till you've had enough to survive and provide support for next generations? Who is to set your pace in life? Do you ever wonder why? Do you ever observe your dog, and wonder what would happen to Spot if you stopped feeding him? Ever think about what it would be like to not make any money? Could you feed yourself? Do you know how to survive? Do you ever wonder why most believe that money is of actual value, rather than look at the value of their own self?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo in order to trancend the "outlandish/civil discussion" divide it must pass the test of simple rationality. it doesn't. it was tried well before you and it fails miserably. ...so get used to being singled out for offensive and outlandish points-of-view until you can come up with another cohesive and rational explaination for what cullminated on that morning in September other than what's been widely accepted.

So the Gulf of Tonkin was believable at one time, the ideas behind the story were "rational", but then was later found to be questioned more and more, as more people "woke up" to the fact that it could be a farce. Now where are we? How is this "history repeating" so to speak any different?

hahaha. its too funny. where do these people come from?

yeah, the troofers are the equivalent of galileo or copernicus!

that's just great!

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 Most people are sheeple and have no idea what their importance on this planet is and just takes what is fed to them by the media and others in power, instead of taking the initiative to gain the knowledge themselves, and question everything. The growing apathy, and ignorance of people around the world is terrible. I see it on the freeway in traffic everyday.

Ok, I'm taking the bait, even though this whole thread is stupid. If there is any word that pisses me off when used by people who have joined the movement of the moment, it is "sheeple" - seriously, are you trying to be annoying or is it just in your nature? You are following blindly the insinuation and speculation of theories that do nothing more than tie loose strings together. By saying "this doesn't make sense" you fall back on allegations that "the government must want us to be confused" like it is some sentient, evil entity out to get average Americans.

The basis of your argument is this: "isn't it weird that no witnesses have come forward who SAW the plane hit the Pentagon?"

My argument then is this: "isn't it weird that no reputable source has advocated any of these conspiracy theories? Isn't it weird that not a single peer-reviewed journal has published anything about an alternative theory of what happened on 9/11? Isn't it weird that a government composed of thousands of people is able to act with one coherent motivation (corporate greed)? Isn't it WEIRD that despite the fact that Democrats look for anything to hang this Administration with in order to make them look bad, not a single respectable member of that party has said "gee, maybe the Administration is responsible for 9/11?"

Just be pragmatic about this. In order to orchestrate this kind of government conspiracy, how many people would have to be in the know? And not a single one has said "oh my God, my government is contributing to the deaths of thousands of Americans... maybe I should speak out?" Or is the government now capable of preemptively silencing all government employees now too?

If you bring facts rather than insinuation, you will be far more believable. Until then... who is the sheep?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco First off, George Bush and Vice President Cheney are not omnipotent powers. They don't just create and decree laws that SUPPOSEDLY "favor" them at will.

No, but for almost 6 years they had a Republican majority in Congress do their bidding for them.

And whatever laws they didn't like, they simply added an illegal signing statement to bend it to their will.

quote:

Our defense budget is approved by Democrats & Republicans alike in the Senate. They'd have to be in on this "conspiracy" too, but what are the chances Democrats are trying to secretly help make Bush and Cheney rich? I know all about Halliburton, and I don't like it either. But what's going on with the wars currently is much larger than that. We were obviously attacked on 9-11 (I'll go in to why in a second).

While I would contend that there are a number of Democrats that are easily corruptible by the same powers, I think you know why Dems. cave so easily on such issues - they're completely spineless and all it takes is for Bush to say, "aiding the terrorists" which is the equivalent of "BOO!!!!" and they scamper and cower to his wishes.

quote:

Our defense budget is large, true. It always has been since the end of World War Two. But it's been that way as part of the modern doctrine for war, which is all about being at a heightened state of readiness. Thus winning or losing major wars in a matter of days, unlike the wars of attrition from the past. It's actually MORE cost effective in the long-run, versus protracted wars. We basically out-spent Russia on defense until they collapsed in financial ruin. But the cold war ended SAFELY in this way, proving that the best defense is a superior offense.

Hmm, so you would agree that it was a mistake for Bush Sr. to begin closing down bases and sizing down the military after the Cold War was over during his term, to which Clinton followed suit?

quote:

But getting back to the dollar; When this war on terror started, gold was at about $300.00 per ounce. Today, it's at $900.00! Currently, the Euro is at about $1.50 to the dollar...it's been even higher than that since 9-11, when the dollar was .85 cents to the Euro! Oil prices are through the roof (although much of that has to do with good ole supply and demand, as China comes on the world stage as a growing super-power). Point being, wars are NEVER profitable if they are PROTRACTED, as this war is now.

You must tell that a lot to Lockheed Martin.

And all those no-bid contracts to the contractors.

And those private contractors who make hand over fist in security versus our own fucking military men and women.

I don't have the figures with me, but while I agree with some of your premise, war has historically help keep a slumping economy from crashing to a certain degree, and this one was no different.

quote:

But why are we fighting this war then? It's not hard to figure out. What had Usama Bin Laden been saying from the start? He'd been saying that he wants our military bases out of Saudi Arabia, the holy-land of Mecca...bases that were put there after the first Gulf War to deter Saddam Hussein from attacking in to Saudi Arabia, or even Kuwait again...thus the reason for UBL's "Jihad" against the Infidels. So after 9-11, in order to remove the impetus for further Terrorist attacks, the bases needed to be closed (and due to other factors, like world oil supply and demand, which also then translates in to world safety and stability via safe and secure oil supplies). Saddam Hussein had to go!

This made absolutely no fucking sense. And nice try in these attempts to tie bin Laden and al Qaeda to Saddam, which according to the Duelfer Report had "no operational ties" between them. Good grief.

quote:

WMD's were believed to have been there (remember, he wouldn't let the U.N. Inspectors in to his country anymore, as was part of the original agreement he made at the end of the first Gulf War...why? What was he hiding?)

What the fuck do you mean "what was he hiding"?!?! Didn't we find that out? What was he hiding there, champ? Did we find any WMDs?

What's that?

And about those UN Inspectors - last time I checked they were allowed in and were checking all the sites on the map, and then guess who kicked them out to invade?

Out of guesses yet? Remember way back when, right before we bombed the fuck outa them? (Hint: it wasn't Saddam).

quote:

, and there were other convincing pieces of evidence. Saddam also had 6 months to dispose of them if he had them. Who's to say he didn't?

Every fucking intelligence report that's come out since then. Where ya been all this time, champ?

quote:

And why would our government make up a story about WMD's, knowing that if we use that as a pretext to attack Iraq, that once we got in there, we wouldn't find any...thus creating a storm of world criticism? We too, have WMD's. If we really wanted to make up a grand conspiracy, we'd have brought some of our own along to "planted" them in Iraq!

Is this really worth answering? Jebus. Just peddle your butt over to the "Search this forum" button, throw in "Iraq" and "WMDs", and you'll see silly arguments like this answered ad nauseum.

quote:

Saddam Hussein wasn't stupid, even if he was a Dictator.

Neither was Captain Kangaroo and Mr. Greenjeans. Great show. Da hell does this pertain to anything?

quote:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he disposed of his WMD's, knowing that he was going to lose the war anyway, and the only way he could win the war was in the court of world opinion.

Funny how NOT ONE of our intelligence agencies agree with your unsupported thoughts on the matter. One would think they would know a bit more than yourself, so maybe you shouldn't be too "surprised" how silly such statements like these that you are making.

quote:

But even if it was simply as it appears to have been...a case of poor intelligence that lead us to believe he had WMD's...

More like deliberate ignorance and stovepiping of intelligence:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact

And yes, intelligence on Iraq prior to invasion was obfuscated, deliberately withheld and ignored by this Administrtion:

http://nationaljournal.com/about/nj...005/1122nj1.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10164478

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...MNGCLC1Q5U1.DTL

http://www.thedubyareport.com/malleablefacts.html

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumen..._wmd/print.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...MNGLTFJRLA1.DTL

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005...in1041302.shtml

Remember, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo

And yes, it's fairly obvious that this Administration wanted to take out Saddam pretty early on, even when it had nothing to do with 9/11 and the bastards that attacked us:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain592330.shtml

quote:

that war was, and still is, about oil, in the end. That's why we were even in Saudi Arabia to begin with.

Hmm, must have been why we invaded Saudi Arabia, given the fact that there's so much oil there, 15 out of the 19 9/11 hijackers came from there, yep, thank goodness we invaded them and turned them into a democracy too.

Wait.....

quote:

But our economy helps fuel much of the world's economy. If we sink, so does much of the world. And I for one, would MUCH rather have the corporate powers that be in this country in control of our economy, as opposed to leaving it in the hands of people like Saddam Hussein, or Russia, or China, or any other of the world powers that also want to control the oil, but do not have our best interests (which BTW, translates in to YOUR best interests, Consumers!) at heart!

What in God's green earth makes you think that corporates have YOUR best interests in mind at all? What compels you to believe that?

quote:

The world's economic wheels are greased by oil. It's as necessary a commodity as air, water and food is on a daily basis. To say you are against war for oil is at the height of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. You can no more control your need for it than you can make yourself not ever eat, breath or drink water again. Oil is just woven too tightly in to our economic fabric to be so flippantly dis-regarded.

Funny, I thought both political parties were trying to get us off of foreign oil? And I could have sworn a healthy portion of Democrats wanting to invest in alternative fuels so this whole oil argument would become a moot point?

quote:

Like I said before to Chavez; If you are REALLY against oil, then give it up COMPLETELY and move away from this form of economy we have, and go find one that doesn't rely on oil (and I wish you good luck with that!! lol).

Or consider voting for someone who doesn't have so many fucking ties to the oil industry so we can successfully wean our asses off of dependence from corrupt foreign dictators.

What a strange concept, ain't it?

quote:

Until then, get off your soap box about it.

I'm afraid your box wasn't very sturdy either......

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 This is not irrelevant... but I assume that you think building 7 is irrelevant too. Just because its offensive to think, means that it is hard to understand, hard to talk about, and hard to even imagine differently than what was "given" to us as information by the powers that be. That already turns off the idea of open, thought provoking discussion completely due to modern society's inherent apathy... all most people need is their tvs, their computers, their cars, their pools, their parties, and their income to keep paying off debt, and their worries all float away and their world gets smaller and smaller. Because of this, it becomes some wild "conspiracy theory", and no other person will talk about it because thats what crazys talk about. So is religion, people talk about that all day long. And the Earth would still be flat today if people kept perpetuating this type of "critical" thinking. This sounds like the same garbage being shouted at impressionable minds during the salem witch trials. Do you ever wonder about things like why do girls shave their legs, and why having a shaved cat is sexy? Do you ever wonder why you or where you started thinking those things, when the opposite was true for generations before us? Do you look and think about trends in media, in society, and the some of the ignorance of people these days, and the stupid stories we all read in the news? Do you ever look at history, or even different cultures today and wonder why they are running around in a jungle naked and "free" only having to do only what's needed to survive as a human, the creatures we are? Do you ever think of yourself as anything more than just that? Do you ever think about why we, or most people work 9-5, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year? Isnt it just enough to work until the job is done, till you've had enough to survive and provide support for next generations? Who is to set your pace in life? Do you ever wonder why? Do you ever observe your dog, and wonder what would happen to Spot if you stopped feeding him? Ever think about what it would be like to not make any money? Could you feed yourself? Do you know how to survive? Do you ever wonder why most believe that money is of actual value, rather than look at the value of their own self? So the Gulf of Tonkin was believable at one time, the ideas behind the story were "rational", but then was later found to be questioned more and more, as more people "woke up" to the fact that it could be a farce. Now where are we? How is this "history repeating" so to speak any different?

you just don't get it. we've weighed the evidence. we've given alternatives their diligence. we've come to a conclusion. it's an intellectual been-there-done-that argument as far as i'm concerned at this moment.

i think i have as vivid an imagination as the average person. the trick is to be able to either seperate what we can imagine from the things we can rationalize in the real sense, or tie them together somehow in an at least coherent way. troothers, can't seem to do that well with 9/11.

you can can come up with a million other Gulf of Tonkins, shaved twats, Kennedy assasinations or other intellectual equivalences till your blue in the face, it doesn't make you right about jack shit. until then, lacking anything new to bring to this table, you will be regarded as such previously defined.


EDIT> ...and youre wrong. how 9/11 troothers make me feel personally is irrelevant.

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