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-- Kosovo declaring independence from Serbia
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| Originally posted by SkooB_E Then, in your opinion, what claims do matter? |
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We did have the means to back it up, in this case international law created by the UN. |
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And as I posted, there are nations that doesn't accept injustice such as Ireland. |
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And there is a difference in learning to live with it and to be forced to live with it. The second alternative does in no way make for a peaceful future. |
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How was this a gamble? We where robbed of what is rightfully ours. |
quote: Originally posted by Krypton
It would be in Serbia's interest to let Kosovo go. This is just the hard reality of Yugoslavia's fragmentation.
Serbia let go of so much ... and there's still no end in sight to the "final" fragmentation of Serbia. Which other province of Serbia is next to go? What would you say if one day Kawaii, Texas, Florida or even Alaska decide they want to separate from USA?
quote: Originally posted by EvilTree
Russian backing only goes so far and I don't think Russians are willing to shake the world for Serbia once more.
Once again, you are wrong. I remember your Afghanistan argument flawed logic still to the day. Russia didnt shake the world for Serbia. Russia didnt start WW1. And I see once again someone as usual trying to place the blame on Russia, while in reality WW1 was inevitable due to complex web of alliances and Russians not only not start the war, they were out of it before everyone else. So yes, I guess those pesky Russians did shake the world a lot for Serbia then.
quote: Originally posted by EvilTree
Historical claims, or cultural claims to homeland have zero value in international diplomacy, unless you have the means to back it up. This is just the reality.
New nations and territories have been carved out of so called 'homelands' of many nations, yet those nations learned to live with the consequences.
Serbia gambled and lost.
Get over it. (until you have the means to play another round of international politics)
Pfft. New states such as UK (a federation of republics of sorts), Canada, Spain, Belgium, France, etc. these and other states were allowed to keep their "provinces". Politics is a game where big players decide who they should keep and whom they should dump. International politics are decided by UK and USA. Proof for that - Iraq was invaded and noone was able to do a dam thing about it. So learn to live with the consequences, because there's no such thing as international law - its decided and ruled from the perspective of the top dog. It has always been. Which does not mean its right. So in one aspect of it you are right - as a country you gotta be able to back it up. And then you can write international rules, law and conduct, as long as you have power, money and strong military.
And Serbia eventually will be able to back it up. Just wait until Russia and China gear up and start really have a presence on the world stage. Then Serbia's cries will be heard and actual compromises will be reached, not just one-sided solutions which have clear implications and plans. And Kosovo debacle will be reversed.
Serbia didnt gamble. EU just decided long time ago to reduce Serbia to a tiny weak state, and with the lone superpower's powerful support noone is going to stop it. As long as there's no strong state out there to challenge USA in the world, expect EU/NATO/USA to continue weaken Serbia and its allies. Just because they decided so long time ago.
quote: Originally posted by Special K
actually i was reading something very interesting last night...
...according to a piece written by professor robert hayden at the university of pittsburgh, eastern peoples do not fit the democratic model of governance...
EXCERPT
The article in question exemplifies one of the most intriguing and disturbing aspects of the downfall of "real socialism" in what had been known as Eastern Europe: the widespread revival of an Orientalist discourse that seeks to put the blame for all of the evils of Central Europe (n�e Eastern Europe) on the dark, mysterious, non-western East. Professor Me trovi , a sociologist, makes a sophisticated version of this argument. He first asserts that Slavic peoples cannot be democratic because of their cultural values: "if the family structure among the Slavic peoples is traditional and authoritarian, how can Slavs learn about democracy and egalitarianism?" But he then refines the argument: western Slavs may learn about such things, but not eastern Slavs, because of the latter's "cultural history as part of the Byzantine empire. In contrast to the West, which produced the Enlightenment, Byzantium was always closer to mysticism, irrationalism and other forces deriving from the heart." For this reason, while democratization "might succeed in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia and other nations that traditionally have been closer to the orbit of western cultural ... values, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Macedonia and other parts of the crumbling Soviet Empire are another matter." While Professor Me trovi 's analysis is aimed at all of (formerly) Eastern Europe, it parallels closely the Orientalist rhetoric that politicians in western Yugoslavia used to characterize the nations of eastern Yugoslavia since the late 1980s (see Baki -Hayden and Hayden 1992).
link to full article:
http://condor.depaul.edu/~rrotenbe/...1_1/hayden.html
I find this article extremely offensive. Its using flawed logic. Its sort of like continuation of the old Western way of labeling other cultures as primitive or inferior. Plus its using flawed logic. The idiot professor basically ignores the traditional Slavic ways that have kept their cultures alive for generations. That is a big threat to the American system and the continuing expansion of Western lifestyle into Eastern Europe. We all know how Europeans once labeled native Americans in similar ways. A very pathetic strategy.
Slavic peoples have the same brains, thinking, learning abilities and same species as the rest of us. Just because we have different traditions doesnt mean it made us incapable of democratic societies, thats just pure insult and discrimination. Thats like writing that Muslims are radicals and viciously religious freaks, which is not true.
Your "democratization" is basically a process of stripping traditional Eastern European values in favour of Western ones. To justify that, you use the words democracy and flawed culture logic to spearhead your agenda. And thats why Slavic people like in Serbia resist. We find it offensive.
So far the West has done little or nothing to win the hearts and minds of Slavic people. Look at Serbia, Russia as examples. Why does NATO and its allied clans keep attacking and breaking up these countries? EU/NATO/USA are the ones who are alienating Slavs and turning them to support those pesky nationalists, communists and anti-Western leaders. I can go 10 pages long explaining why, but if you look at the last 17 years and see how much good have market reforms and pro-Western leaders have achieved for Slavic countries - what a surprise that things on a political level didnt change earlier.
quote: Originally posted by EvilTree
Are you telling me that Serbs will possibly wait generations to take revenge for Kosovo?
What a sad excuse culture that must be, to foster hate among its youth and children, so that one day, maybe. just maybe, take revenge.
Who said its revenge? Its a pursuit of justice, of the truth, whats rightfully theirs. Serbs realize that international law means jack shit. As evil and pro Cold War as Russia seems to be, they cant help Serbia. You have no understanding of the situation. You have absolutely no idea what Kosovo means to Serbia. Because you have already made up your mind long ago on who to support ... and double standards you have too. EvilTree, please recognize independence of Quebec! Would you?
BTW, that American military base in Kosovo is a one gigantic motherf---er! Biggest US military base outside of US! One can only wonder why ...
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| Originally posted by batucada When exactly, and which part of northern Greece? Before 1912 northern Greece was occupied by Othoman empire, included the northern Ipirus (historical Greek teritory) which today is possesed by Albania, and fight against Turks to gain back their homeland. Greeks won the war and gain back their historical homelands. They fight for that, they didn t arguing in a forum. Between first and second ww northern Greece was the same as you know today. When exactly northern Greece was Albanian? I m wondering for Greece if Northern Greece was Albanian, Macedonia slavic, Thraki Bulgarian, Crete Aegean and Ionian islands Italian, where did Greeks lived???  Kosovars are happy about their independance but when US finish with Russia, in one way or another, I m wondering what will going to happen to Kosovars... It s sad but true... Serbs will not forget their homelands. I know lot of Serbs and I know what I m talking about. US trying to create problems to Russia with the seccesions issues of Abhazia, Georgia etc. this is the only issue and not the rights of Kosovars or anyone else. Come on guys, do you believe that US give a shit about Kosovars...  |
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| Originally posted by Kapedan I was making a sarcastic reference. Do you think Russia gives a shit about Serbia? Of course not, it is all interests involved. Can someone also educate me on who started the wars in the Balkans? Also, Serbia should look up to Russia and how they handled the break up of the former soviet union. No wars or anything. What has Serbia done? Just the opposite. Considering that Albanians are a small minority in the Balkans and are surrounded by Slavs, I would assume that America would back us up. Also having a soon to be nation of 5 million support you is a plus. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Same thing that's been primary means of backing up one's word; some sort of force. In the past, it's been military force. Now, it's a combination of military, political, diplomatic, social, publicity, etc. Serbia just don't have enough UN means jack shit. UN has no sovereign powers, nor can it impose its will on a member nation. UN is only followed when it suits a nation's purpose. Yeah? So what. IRA has been fighting for a long time, but it doesn't have enough force to make the others do as it says. |
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| Originally posted by EvilTree Gamble might be a wrong word, but Serbia kept that moron Milosevic in power for too long, and trying to subdue Kosovo by military force without enough allies to back up Serbia. Such a moron thing to do, considering how much of bad rep Serbia had in the 90s. |
I have been hearing from some that once Kosovo declared independence, then there would be a movement for a Greater Albania, etc, etc. Sorry, but that is a just a hogwash excuse. If the Serbs thought they could keep Kosovo, then why did Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia; why did they break away too? Are the Serbs really that surprised by all this?
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| After Kosovo: Next stop Greater Albania? By KONSTANTIN TESTORIDES, Associated Press Writer Thu Feb 21, 4:16 AM ET TETOVO, Macedonia - Walk down any street in this Macedonian town and you would be forgiven for thinking that an international border has accidentally been crossed. Stores have Albanian names, cafes have a distinctly Albanian flavor, and the red Albanian flag bearing a black double-headed eagle flutters on the streets. Albanians form an overwhelming majority in an arc of northwestern Macedonia bordering predominantly Albanian Kosovo, which proclaimed its independence from Serbia this week. The same is true of slices of southern Serbia and Montenegro. After Kosovo's leap toward self-determination, is the next step a Greater Albania to pool together the region's ethnic Albanians in a unified state? Don't count on it. The notion has been frequently floated in recent years, and there are some nationalist ethnic Albanians who advocate unification. But there appears to be little overall public enthusiasm for it � not in Albania itself, not in newly independent Kosovo, and not in Albanian-dominated areas of neighboring countries. Part of the resistance lies in the markedly different experiences of Albanians in recent history. Ethnic Albanians have not lived in a unified country since the Ottoman Empire's grip over the Balkans ended in the years before World War I. In the intervening decades, they lived under dramatically different regimes. Enver Hoxha's brutal four-decade isolationist rule of Albania � and that of his successor Ramiz Alia � left his countrymen cut off from the outside world until the 1990s. Life in Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia was more sophisticated, despite the restrictions of the communist regime. So when Albania opened its international borders for the first time in 1991, Kosovars found they had little in common with their brethren to the southwest. But Kosovars have also likely calculated that the move would be bad for their future as well. It was tricky enough for the province to declare independence over the vehement objections of Serbia and Russia. Calling for a pan-Albanian state would likely provoke an even stronger response, not only from Serbia but from other Balkan neighbors. The United States and EU heavyweights France, Germany and Britain would also probably oppose any abrupt move toward Albanian unification. And Kosovars know that their new � and barely financially viable � country depends on the goodwill of these Western states. Kosovo may also find that being a sovereign country is preferable to becoming a province of a larger state once more. Sabit Bunjaku, an economist in the Kosovo capital of Pristina, used to support the idea of a Greater Albania, but now thinks it should be laid to rest. "Our demands are being fulfilled, so why ask for more?" he said. Despite the apparent apathy for the idea of Albanian unification, concerns do persist, particularly in Macedonia, where ethnic Albanian rebels took up arms against government forces in 2001, launching a six-month conflict. "The biggest fear for me, as a Macedonian, is that Kosovo's independence will bring only partition for Macedonia," said Marina Stevcevska, an economist in the capital, Skopje. For its part, impoverished Albania has set its sights firmly on eventually joining the European Union and NATO � with all the financial benefits that could bring � and most politicians seem unwilling to jeopardize those goals. In the end, Albanians might indeed find a unity of sorts � under the umbrella of an expanded European Union. Theodore Couloumbis, professor of international relations at the University of Athens, said that he sees two options for the Balkans. They could go the route of seeking "to redefine the map, to regain or to gain territories," Couloumbis said. The other path, he said, "and the one I hope that most people in the Balkans are opting for, is the European option." |
No one is surprised by this, in fact that's why people are upset. As I posted earlier:
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| Originally posted by SkooB_E This means that albanians in other countries such as Macedonia and Montenegro will come with demands of independence and within 5 years what is now Kosovo will be known as northern Albanina and EU, UN and USA will have helped the albanians achive the same thing that they say they stoped Serbia from doing. In removing Milosevic they have created new one in Thaci. |
Krypton, when countries fight for independence, they tend to do it for just that, not to lose their independence to another state. I doubt Kosovo will join Albania anytime soon, though they might form some sort of a political or an economical alliance of sorts. Kosovans right now want to enjoy the precious freedom. Same with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and whatever other European breakaway region. Even if Abkhazia is suddenly recognized by Russia, that wouldn't mean they would join Russia.
One reason is Russian arrogance (and this coming from a Russian - myself). Russian politicians have been lobbying for a pro-Russian Abkhaz leader couple years ago in Abkhaz elections. Elections results proved to be a shocker - a nationalist won by a margin over a pro-Russian candidate. Silly Russian government at that time protested, even cut off the Abkhazian border for few days (which only alienated its Abkhazian supporters). The matter of a fact is this is just evidence that despite all the Western cries, Kosovo shares a lot in common with that region. And the breakaway Soviet regions in discussion are not under Moscow's thumb.
I would like to draw another analogy in this Kosovo case in addition to the humiliating Versailles defeat. When Soviet Union came around, they re-drew the maps and placed borders and ethnic groups in such situations which later led to ethnic conflicts. Same with Kosovo, time will tell.
An example to that is Nagorno-Karabakh. Its a region dominated by Armenians around a majority of Azeris. Over centuries, Armenians were slightly displaced and Nagorno-Kabarach became "separated" from the mainland Armenia by an area dominated by Azeri people. When Soviet Union swept through the area in earlly 1920s, they forced Armenians in Nagorno-Karabach under Azeri thumb. It looked like peace would last. Then, when Soviet tanks left, people were finally given an opportunity to settle things using force, as disputes and arguments led nowhere. And we all know what happened next.
Same with Kosovo right now. Americans are acting like Soviets did in Nagorno-Kabarach and deciding that their method of separation, division and forced to accept sovereignity to Kosovo will bring peace. Sure, peace will last until they leave. And then people will take matters into their own hands. Its not just Slavs - its history.
I'm Albanian. My parents and 2 oldest brothers are from Kosovo.
I wish this conflict can be put behind us.....
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Krypton, when countries fight for independence, they tend to do it for just that, not to lose their independence to another state. I doubt Kosovo will join Albania anytime soon, though they might form some sort of a political or an economical alliance of sorts. Kosovans right now want to enjoy the precious freedom. Same with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and whatever other European breakaway region. Even if Abkhazia is suddenly recognized by Russia, that wouldn't mean they would join Russia. |
What was it about Marshal Tito that keep Yugoslavia together for so long?
Communism.
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| Originally posted by Evol` Communism. |
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Russia could use force in Kosovo Czech K-For troops in northern Kosovo, 21 Feb 08 Czech Nato troops went to prevent further Serb violence Russia's ambassador to Nato, Dmitry Rogozin, has warned that Russia could use military force if the Kosovo independence dispute escalates. "If the EU develops a unified position or if Nato exceeds its mandate set by the UN, then these organisations will be in conflict with the UN," he said. In that case Russia would "proceed on the basis that in order to be respected we need to use brute force", he said. Many EU members have recognised Kosovo, but several oppose recognition. Russia, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, backs Serbia, which has condemned the independence declaration issued by the Kosovo parliament on 17 February. On Tuesday members of the Serb minority in Kosovo attacked two border posts staffed by UN personnel and Kosovo police. The violence led the Nato troops in Kosovo - known as K-For - to reinforce the border with Serbia. Kosovo's majority ethnic Albanians are following a plan drawn up by UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari for "supervised independence", which was rejected by Serbia. Russian media outcry The EU will soon deploy 2,000 officials to strengthen law and order in Kosovo, which has a population of about two million. Russia argues that the mission has no legal basis. There has been a furious reaction in some Russian media to Kosovo's declaration of independence. A commentary in the Vesti Plus analytical programme, on state-run television, called the assassinated former Serbian Prime Minister, Zoran Djindjic, a Western puppet who had "received a well-deserved bullet". It said Djindjic had sold national heroes to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague. The programme concluded that Serbia - and not only Serbia - must now decide whether to acquiesce in what has happened, or resist. |
Dont trust that article, its British Russophobic media. I already brought up countless examples. Russia doesnt want a Third World War. Who are they going to attack? You gotta be kidding me. Besides, no offense, Kosovo is not very important to Russia, its sort of a win win situation. Now Russia can juggle the situation in its favour with such breakaway regions as Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transdnistria. Now noone can criticize Russia for "helping" those seccessionist movements. Chechnya and other Russian republics arent going to call anything .. not at least for many years from now. Chechnya was an example of that.
Not that I am saying that a separatist Russian republic will be put down by force. Tatarstan declared independence in 1991 and kicked out Russian taxmen and officials. Unlike the pesky Chechens, Tatarstan and Moscow were able to find dialogue and now everything good and happy. Tatarstan is one of the most prosperous regions in Russia btw.
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Dont trust that article, its British Russophobic media. I already brought up countless examples. Russia doesnt want a Third World War. Who are they going to attack? You gotta be kidding me. Besides, no offense, Kosovo is not very important to Russia, its sort of a win win situation. Now Russia can juggle the situation in its favour with such breakaway regions as Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transdnistria. Now noone can criticize Russia for "helping" those seccessionist movements. Chechnya and other Russian republics arent going to call anything .. not at least for many years from now. Chechnya was an example of that. Not that I am saying that a separatist Russian republic will be put down by force. Tatarstan declared independence in 1991 and kicked out Russian taxmen and officials. Unlike the pesky Chechens, Tatarstan and Moscow were able to find dialogue and now everything good and happy. Tatarstan is one of the most prosperous regions in Russia btw. |
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| Originally posted by guerra-monstru A third world war wouldn't happen over Kosovo. Russia can't do anything so no need to bring anything up. Once Russia "attacks" they will get their booty handed to them by Finland. |
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| Originally posted by eROs.au Why can't it? Smaller incidents have caused wars before |
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| Originally posted by guerra-monstru b/c we are living in a different time. If russia want's to go to war to protect "slavic" people. Than I have bad news for slavs. They will get wiped off this planet and no I don't think nucleur weapons would be used. Also you are talking about a very weak Russia that would have difficulty fighting Ukraine now imagine fighting a force like any NATO member. Russia would lose any war with any nation in NATO. Russia doesn't have the military power to be a "threat" and they wouldn't use nukes. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton Whaaa? Russia has never been subjigated even by the likes of Adolf Hitler or Napolean. What makes you think they are so weak? They have some of the best weapons systems in the world which could match many facits of NATO technology. |
Lol, its always interesting to see bbs/cnn nation kids point of view...
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| Originally posted by Evol` Lol, its always interesting to see bbs/cnn nation kids point of view... |
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| Originally posted by guerra-monstru Lets see where they went wrong. Napolean didn't have any winter clothing and his supply lines were streched thin. He did burn Moscow though. hitler had Ukrainians and Belorussians' killed even though many of them loved being liberated from Russia. So had Hitler been nicer to the Ukrainians and belorussians' good bye Russia. Russia would not have lasted. Also why do people think we are in the 1940's? Have people forgotten all the progress that has been made? Russia's size doesn't matter anymore nor do their equipement. The majority of their equipement is old and out of date. Like I said Russia would stand no chance against NATO. NONE. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton So where do you disagree? The Russians have never been subjigated. Their enemies made blunders yes, but the Russians knew how to use the weather AND Russian "state of the art" weapons systems such as the T34 tank. You greatly underestimate Russian capabilities, just as Napolean and Hitler did. And if NATO makes the same mistake, Russia will slam the foot down. Remember who beat the Americans to space... |
Don't underestimate the Russians...
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