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-- what would YOU do...need some serious advice
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quote:

Originally posted by capo tutti di True, but i think in this case he was away at school, occasionally sees his fam and comes back a year later all fucked up...they don't get to see it happen. I think it could be a cop out on his folks part...I've certainly been sketchy or paranoid for a week after night/morning out.

I had a friend who was kicked out of his house because his parents thought he was an addict.

Great guy, athletic, active in the community, he started saying reallly fucked up things, doing odd things, so they blamed drugs.

He was on the streets, then in a boarding house, then eventually diagnosed as being BiPolar. I think people really confuse mental disease with drug use and vice versa.

There is obviously a fucking shitload about this story we or even Evil_cookie has no idea about.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy drugs cannot cause schizophrenia but if someone has it in their history or has a menatl disease but it lays dormaint, drugs can trigger it.

you dont even need a history of mental disease to become schizo, in fact, most people dont have any symptoms of a mental illness until the onset of the mild schizo. Shizophrenic SYMPTOMS (including delsions, hallucinations, grossly disorganized or catonic behavior, disorganized speeach, or innapropriate affect) can come about as a result of drug use, but one can never be diagnosed as shizo as a result of merely using drugs....it has to come from somewhere else (ie: what I mentioned before: enivironmental stressors, chemical imbalance NOT attributed to drugs, etc.......). I think whoever diagnosed him is not making the correct diagnosis OR we dont know the whole story.


btw: bipolar is being significantly overused as a diagnosis nowadays. Bipolar on a mild level is literally being diagnosed to people who have mood swings, and its totally making those with severe cases not be taken as seriously. complete bullshit, esp when they give meds to those with moods swings and it fucks up their chemistry and makes them worse than when they startes (fyi: bipolar drugs are some of the most controversial because they are so strong and overly prescribed, such as lithium)--->scary stuff.

edit: lol after reading my last couple of posts, I realize my spelling is fakked....sorry but I dont feel like fixing, it but you get the point....I am a badddd clinician

^many interesting points/perspectives in the previous posts.

I follow one rule in my life when It comes to matters like these.

The truth shall set you free.

(However I quickly acknowledge that rule has BURNED me more times than I can remember)

Yet I still believe that it is the only appropriate course of action, regardless of whether it yields the most positive outcome.

I went to see his family this morning, and I agreed that for time being I�d keep my mouth shut, but if at any point I decide that they�re fucking around with his life and making the situation worse, I have the right to let him know. Because these worse he gets because of his family�s inability to make proper decisions, the shittier my role becomes in initiating it�.

Also, yankeeBaby, he has been a life time schizophrenic (this I never knew when we first met 6-7 years ago). The recent developments are all because of his fucking drug use � cocaine in particular that has made his case even worse. And as it turns out, the reason the decision to put him into rehab has been stripped away from him, is that two weeks ago he was released from jail on bail by his older brother, for assault and drug use at U of T, hence why he got kicked out. And apparently, he was suspended once before, but that because he failed to maintain his program GPA.

Anyway, I asked if I could visit him and you know, just talk to him, even if we�re going along with this absurd plan, I still want to �be there� for him. But the mother told me that their lawyer is in the process of keeping him in prison to start his treatment so at this time we can�t visit him�so I asked where he was taken, and they said they have to talk to the lawyer and they don�t know. �Don�t worry about it mike, you are his best friend, you have been an angel in this, god bless you, let us take care of him now, you have to trust us�. I find this shit a little hard to believe that they would not know where he is today�almost a day has passed, there must have been some contact. Anyway, fuck I really still don�t feel good knowing he�s in prison and doing all sorts of shit against his will, shit that can easily make things worse.

quote:

Originally posted by capo tutti di Wow, I LOL'd hard...He can never get better...how do you know he is skitzo and just not maybe smoking crack..not even trying to be funny, maybe he's going through withdrawal

quote:

due to the excess drugs he�s been taking, he has developed a growing case of schizophrenia

duh!

I rarely post on here but this thread has compelled me to do so..

Being a Social Worker I deal with mental illness on a daily basis and creating confusion and deception in the life of someone who is obviously already confused can never be positive..

If you're friend is going to get better, he needs to do so with things being transparent....It seems that some people on here think that he will somehow magically be cured and only then will he be able to appreciate the truth..that really is spitting in the face of someone living with mental illness.....if he were to find out the truth in the coming weeks, months, years....it will force him to reasses all that he has gone through in that time..and IF he has made progress the truth may actually be counterproductive....meaning..if you're not going to tell him now..don't bother telling him after he he has made some progess...

it looks like you're friend needs someone in his corner and no matter how much his parents think they are helping him....tricking him and locking him up is not the way to go...by going along and lying to him..all you're doing is validating their actions...

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear I rarely post on here but this thread has compelled me to do so.. Being a Social Worker I deal with mental illness on a daily basis and creating confusion and deception in the life of someone who is obviously already confused can never be positive.. If you're friend is going to get better, he needs to do so with things being transparent....It seems that some people on here think that he will somehow magically be cured and only then will he be able to appreciate the truth..that really is spitting in the face of someone living with mental illness.....if he were to find out the truth in the coming weeks, months, years....it will force him to reasses all that he has gone through in that time..and IF he has made progress the truth may actually be counterproductive....meaning..if you're not going to tell him now..don't bother telling him after he he has made some progess... it looks like you're friend needs someone in his corner and no matter how much his parents think they are helping him....tricking him and locking him up is not the way to go...by going along and lying to him..all you're doing is validating their actions...

I dont necessarily agree with everything you are saying. I think evil-cookie needs to assess the situatuation to see if the truth will cause more harm than good.

For instance, what if he tells his friend the truth, and the parents deny it to save their own ass (which seems a likely scenario?) That will just be a cause for more confusion.

And also, one must assess whether the friend is in crisis mode, and whether he can handle the information at the time. No one is saying to NEVER tell him the truth, but in extremely emotional times, one must look into MANY factors that may affect his health furhter. A short period of time never killed anyone...you just simply tell them "I wanted to tell you this but wanted to make sure you were safe and ready to ear it......" jsut asses the situation and dont wait TOO long as to avoid looking like a liar rather than someone who wanted to help and make sure it was the right time.

quote:

Originally posted by yankeeBaby For instance, what if he tells his friend the truth, and the parents deny it to save their own ass (which seems a likely scenario?) That will just be a cause for more confusion.

+1 This is likely to just confuse him and make him trust even fewer people, and possibly lash out even further. He won't know who to run to or talk to, and soon the family and the friend will lose all contact.

I agree with you somewhat..if he is going to tell him, it should happen soon...and my point was that if you wait too long to tell him the truth, it will do more harm than good...

In my opinion, this person is making some very wrong choices and needs guidance..as well as medical intervention..but the steps the family is taking, and the process that he is now involved in is extreme...

Mental Ilnees + making bad choices does not = giving up the right to being treated with dignity and respect..

just my opinion..

ss

I just read the post, and I'm not about to read 8 pages of responces, so here's mine from someone who's had messed up relationships like that.

You don't need to worry about the guy. Yeah, you have your honour, and I respect that and see it in you. But forget about him. You distanced yourself for a reason. Keep it that way. He might even thank you in the future. He messed up his life pretty bad, his parents went through enough. Grace their wishes, and move on. People come and go. Many know me now. Will they know me in 10 years? Will they care? no.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Trust me I've been held outside the justice system under the mental health act - under armed gaurd from maplehurst.. while at a hostpital. I was held for over a month, and the charges were dropped after two weeks. I've been able to function in a University setting and have never needed psychiatric drugs to function. However when I was held under the mental health act they force medicated me, at times while strapped to a bed. Yet I've never needed them while on the outside, figure that.

by the look of your avatar I would have never guessed

quote:

Originally posted by ******** developed a growing case of schizophrenia. - while it is often said that drug use can lead to schizophernia - drug enduced disorganization and schizophrenia are two different things. Also hallucinations etc. can be an after effect of drug use, not necisarily schizo caused by drugs left in the system, such as acid. If they do a treatment order on the guy he will be druged with psychotropics that will totally mess with his head, and likely cause liver damage - the drugs used by institutions in general are not benificial but incapacitators that disorient and cause long term toxic damage to the body. Trust me I've been held outside the justice system under the mental health act - under armed gaurd from maplehurst.. while at a hostpital. I was held for over a month, and the charges were dropped after two weeks. I've been able to function in a University setting and have never needed psychiatric drugs to function. However when I was held under the mental health act they force medicated me, at times while strapped to a bed. Yet I've never needed them while on the outside, figure that. You betrayed a stated mentally unstable person... essentially he is f*#(ed for the rest of his life. 1. Institutional Treatment order may be "indefinate" esssentially a life sentance - with doctors determining when someone is released, with no set dates. 2. If he ever gets into trouble with the system he can be divirted out of the justice system, essentially not having the right to a regular or fair trial, with no rights of self representation. He is effectively disenfranchised for the rest of his life. If he gets held under a treatment order and is put on psychotropics that is hell.. no one should be held in captivity on the basis of their lifestyle choices.. the guy could obviously function. The courts shouldn't be ordering treatments.. prisoners even have the right to refuse treatment it is a fundamnetal right yet under the mental health act essentially people are tortured against their will. This is truely sad, also the fact he was resisting likely landed him in jail or as a dangerous or violent offender which will only make things more difficult.. everyone knows who NOT to contact now when they need help. You basically turned the guy in to be tortured for his choice to do drugs. -victim of the underground - victim of the system Also I woulnd't trust this diagnosis crap.. I've been diagnosed like 5 times.. each diagnosis was different. At the time of incapacitization I was as stated in court records -"a psychotic delusional schizophrenic" - this because of a court case that ended up being a total farse, with me catching the judge in a lie at sentencing, which caused her to blush and instruct police officers to "spray me" lwtf. Anyway now it is to the point of "he just doesn't like other people" and you wonder why.. but really that isn't the case either. The whole thing has been political and cultural divergence, I simply don't beleive or support the same things as the archons do so I'm targetted. Because I speak out against the system, the system tries to muffle. Anyway, I'd be very careful about betraying anyone. Bear in mind there is a drug war ongoing and has been for years now. Note though that many prominent people have done various types of drugs, ranging from acid to cocaine or canabis, and they are successfull people. Schizophrenia as a neurological illness cause is unknown, but linked to nutrition as well as drug use, which creates psychosis. The things are all independant. Schizo is a lable that can be slapped on people to cause stigma, but the fact is, it is earmark of general disagreement with beleif systems. Although anyone who is suffering from hallucination should be helped, I've never suffered from hallucinations, nor does someone with schizophrenia necisarily suffer from them. Frankly I'd help the guy out, but if there is a court order in place, then it is a slightly different situation because it is aiding and abetting, but I'd definately try to get more information, on what is going on and try to judge whether the person is being set up or if they honestly need medical help. From personal experience many don't. There is a chronic case of over treatment and overmedication by the medical institution in Canada, that is a fact. When peoples lives are the ones being damaged by forced nonconsensual process that is a huge ethical issue, bearing in mind more and more so cultural divergence is seen as a cause of mental health issues, yet various cultures and subcultures, have cultural "illnesses" that is within their culture it is fine, but another culture looking at it, it could be cause for concern. The system is largely just totalitarian cultural enforcement and repression of indviduality or individual experience, yet we all have creativity and if we are self controlled and not causing harm, why should we be subjected to torture or imprisonment, especially if we are law abiding. There is no informed consent within the mental health institution in Ontario under the mental health act. We should not give someone the power to strip fundamental rights of personal protection - ever.

that just about sums up what i think about this situation. good post.

quote:

Originally posted by ******** developed a growing case of schizophrenia. - while it is often said that drug use can lead to schizophernia - drug enduced disorganization and schizophrenia are two different things. Also hallucinations etc. can be an after effect of drug use, not necisarily schizo caused by drugs left in the system, such as acid. If they do a treatment order on the guy he will be druged with psychotropics that will totally mess with his head, and likely cause liver damage - the drugs used by institutions in general are not benificial but incapacitators that disorient and cause long term toxic damage to the body. Trust me I've been held outside the justice system under the mental health act - under armed gaurd from maplehurst.. while at a hostpital. I was held for over a month, and the charges were dropped after two weeks. I've been able to function in a University setting and have never needed psychiatric drugs to function. However when I was held under the mental health act they force medicated me, at times while strapped to a bed. Yet I've never needed them while on the outside, figure that. You betrayed a stated mentally unstable person... essentially he is f*#(ed for the rest of his life. 1. Institutional Treatment order may be "indefinate" esssentially a life sentance - with doctors determining when someone is released, with no set dates. 2. If he ever gets into trouble with the system he can be divirted out of the justice system, essentially not having the right to a regular or fair trial, with no rights of self representation. He is effectively disenfranchised for the rest of his life. If he gets held under a treatment order and is put on psychotropics that is hell.. no one should be held in captivity on the basis of their lifestyle choices.. the guy could obviously function. The courts shouldn't be ordering treatments.. prisoners even have the right to refuse treatment it is a fundamnetal right yet under the mental health act essentially people are tortured against their will. This is truely sad, also the fact he was resisting likely landed him in jail or as a dangerous or violent offender which will only make things more difficult.. everyone knows who NOT to contact now when they need help. You basically turned the guy in to be tortured for his choice to do drugs. -victim of the underground - victim of the system Also I woulnd't trust this diagnosis crap.. I've been diagnosed like 5 times.. each diagnosis was different. At the time of incapacitization I was as stated in court records -"a psychotic delusional schizophrenic" - this because of a court case that ended up being a total farse, with me catching the judge in a lie at sentencing, which caused her to blush and instruct police officers to "spray me" lwtf. Anyway now it is to the point of "he just doesn't like other people" and you wonder why.. but really that isn't the case either. The whole thing has been political and cultural divergence, I simply don't beleive or support the same things as the archons do so I'm targetted. Because I speak out against the system, the system tries to muffle. Anyway, I'd be very careful about betraying anyone. Bear in mind there is a drug war ongoing and has been for years now. Note though that many prominent people have done various types of drugs, ranging from acid to cocaine or canabis, and they are successfull people. Schizophrenia as a neurological illness cause is unknown, but linked to nutrition as well as drug use, which creates psychosis. The things are all independant. Schizo is a lable that can be slapped on people to cause stigma, but the fact is, it is earmark of general disagreement with beleif systems. Although anyone who is suffering from hallucination should be helped, I've never suffered from hallucinations, nor does someone with schizophrenia necisarily suffer from them. Frankly I'd help the guy out, but if there is a court order in place, then it is a slightly different situation because it is aiding and abetting, but I'd definately try to get more information, on what is going on and try to judge whether the person is being set up or if they honestly need medical help. From personal experience many don't. There is a chronic case of over treatment and overmedication by the medical institution in Canada, that is a fact. When peoples lives are the ones being damaged by forced nonconsensual process that is a huge ethical issue, bearing in mind more and more so cultural divergence is seen as a cause of mental health issues, yet various cultures and subcultures, have cultural "illnesses" that is within their culture it is fine, but another culture looking at it, it could be cause for concern. The system is largely just totalitarian cultural enforcement and repression of indviduality or individual experience, yet we all have creativity and if we are self controlled and not causing harm, why should we be subjected to torture or imprisonment, especially if we are law abiding. There is no informed consent within the mental health institution in Ontario under the mental health act. We should not give someone the power to strip fundamental rights of personal protection - ever.

however! (if i may interupt) you rock a hulk hogan moustache and have a mullet thus eliminating any credability in your post.

bring on the next crazy

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy however! (if i may interupt) you rock a hulk hogan MOLESTACHE and have a mullet thus eliminating any credibility in your post. bring on the next crazy

fixed b/c i wanted to
xoxo

why helllllllo my little bukkake queen.


i hope yankee mamaries doesnt get upset im changing topic

Very sad story indeed....But I have to agree with Laura when she said that it's basically best to leave it as is with what the family wants. My cousin was diagnosed with schizophrenia a few years ago....and b/c he was on comeplete denial of his illness, my family had to get a warrant for his arrest and taken to rehab. It was soo sad and hard for them but it was the only way they were able to get him out of the house and into rehab.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy why helllllllo my little bukkake queen. i hope yankee mamaries doesnt get upset im changing topic

lol no, I said my $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by Irishaddict Do what the family is asking you to do. It sucks for you YES, but overall if he's going to get help he needs to trust his family. They are involving the police obviously because they have exhausted all of their resources. You have every right to give the family a piece of your mind, but honestly in the interests of seeing that dude ever get better, you have to turn the other cheek with respect to telling him who called the cops. Sorry to hear though, wow, shitty day indeed.

agreed.
sounds like it was for his own good. They're his family if they're going to go to those kind of lengths to try and help him get better then they obviously care

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan +1 How do you know that the truth being found out later is going to make the situation even more worse? We know this dude has some mental problems, but we don't know the full extent, as in whether this dude has capability to make rational choices or not. I may live in an imperfect world, but I don't run away from consequences of my actions, nor do I screw over other people without their consent, no matter how good my intentions are. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or something like that.

+1 on that too... from me

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot If the parents are acting this way after the fact and showing a disgusting lack of flexibility/compassion...chances are good to great that they contributed significantly to the problem in the first place.....wanting your child to stay in prison and in isolation to get over drug addiction? honestly.....that is so harsh, cold, and entirely uncharacteristic of the way parents should act towards their children. The parents are clearly doing what's in THEIR own interests and it's probably what they've being doing their entire life with the kid.

I have to agree with you on the general assertions you made here

Whether or not he is told the truth wont change the fact that he needs help in his current situation. Lets work on solving the problem first then the questions can come later. People under the influence of drugs are totally unreasonable anyway.

This comment is a general development on the discussion here, but I'd like to specifically address it to Irishaddict and Ania_cox:

Why do you people think that this guy not knowing it was his family who called the cops on him is somehow good for him or will help to aid his recovery? Where do you people get such naive thoughts??? I mean, if his parents did love him and cared for him and did everything they could while he was a child growing up to instill good moral values and personal self-confidence in him then yes, he might be considered a failure of a child... but if his parents mistreated him or through some other way helped to contribute to the development of these problems in him... then how can you possibly think that by them continuing to lie and cover up their actions will their relationship ever improve (thus helping him to improve and resolve his problems, as you are suggesting)? We don't know where the root of this guy's problems lies, so we shouldn't assume that family will necessarily always make it better. If any of you could understand Czech, I could point you at this very minute to examples of discussion websites where people who have had severe relationship problems with their parents (as children) or family relatives have written, and by reading these discussions (some of them are like 20+ pages, spanning over the development of several years), you could []Imaybe[/I] become cured of your naivite... although that seems not certain. When you read first-hand account stories of adults who write that their (biological!) father or mother beat them up so bad as children that blood was literally streaking from them from to sides and that their brother or sister even used their body to shield them from the attack, maybe you would rethink your thoughts. And these are just two such stories that I remember reading (both first-hand accounts), that quickly come to mind - one was written by a woman, her story was that after her father died and the mother remarried, she started to severely abuse her children and at one point she beat up her young daughter so bad that had her brother not shielded her with his body, she would have probably been killed that time; the other was written by a guy who wrote that as a 12-year old, he was beaten up by his father into unconsiousness, and his father also chased him with grape-cutting scissor saying he will kill him, and this dude ended up shooting himself at maybe 15??? (don't remember now), and somehow miracoulously surviving. Would you say to them that their parents and family also wanted the best for them and that no one could understood the dynamics of their relationships better than their family????


Back to the topic, perhaps the guy in question needed to be arrested to be saved from his own self-destructive habits, but it has to be pointed out that if his family did on a significant level contribute to the development of his problems over a longer time-period, maybe what he needs to really realize is that he cannot trust them and should not trust them and decide to make his life better for his own sake, not for that of his parents. And him knowing that his family betrayed him this way might even help him in that. If that's really the case, then he has to come to the conclusion of his own that he wants to live a better life and has to gather up his own strength to do it, not to rely on his family. Either he will do it and survive, or he will not, and he will not make it. That's the cold facts I can see from reading many stories of other people who had serious fallouts with their family... (such as those that I was writing about above).

quote:

Originally posted by ******** everyone knows who NOT to contact now when they need help. You basically turned the guy in to be tortured for his choice to do drugs.

hey thanks for that, as if that's not on my fucking mind.

quote:

Originally posted by yankeeBaby For instance, what if he tells his friend the truth, and the parents deny it to save their own ass (which seems a likely scenario?) That will just be a cause for more confusion.

Luckily this is one thing I don�t need to worry about. My conversation with his family after the arrest took place at my restaurant - I have the recordings plus the audio. Jesus, how sad would it be if I had to resort to that?

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie You don't need to worry about the guy. Yeah, you have your honour, and I respect that and see it in you. But forget about him. You distanced yourself for a reason. Keep it that way.

I completely agree, and its not about my feelings or honour. This is a very delicate situation: if I tell him, and he gets worse because of my interference, then it�s all on me anyway. If I don�t tell him, and his crazy parents do the absurd things they want to do to him, and if something were to happen to him DOWN THE LINE, I WILL BE THE ONE WHO TRIGGERED THIS WHOLE THING, him getting ARRESTED and thrown in JAIL and all the other shit that WILL happen to him will be cause of my doings. Like I said, I can turn the cheek here, no problem, I�m just trying to find out how I can disengage myself from future shit that will inevitably fall on my lap.

The only thing that comes to mind is, his parents eventually telling him the truth � I don�t care when or how, on there terms. But the fact is, they have made it one hundred percent clear that, it will never happen.

And that is the ONLY solution here: the family taking responsibility for their actions by THEIR OWN ADMITTANCEN and NOT by me having to tell their son that they lied. And after talking to the older brother a couple hours ago, it looks like I shouldn�t hold my breath.

Like honestly, I can�t fucking lash out at his family because that would just be callous of me...

But fuck...

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear I rarely post on here but this thread has compelled me to do so.. Being a Social Worker I deal with mental illness on a daily basis and creating confusion and deception in the life of someone who is obviously already confused can never be positive.. If you're friend is going to get better, he needs to do so with things being transparent....It seems that some people on here think that he will somehow magically be cured and only then will he be able to appreciate the truth..that really is spitting in the face of someone living with mental illness.....if he were to find out the truth in the coming weeks, months, years....it will force him to reasses all that he has gone through in that time..and IF he has made progress the truth may actually be counterproductive....meaning..if you're not going to tell him now..don't bother telling him after he he has made some progess... it looks like you're friend needs someone in his corner and no matter how much his parents think they are helping him....tricking him and locking him up is not the way to go...by going along and lying to him..all you're doing is validating their actions...

THANK YOU.

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