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-- Armin van Buuren & DJ Shah feat. Chris Jones - Going Wrong [Armada]
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Probably the worst AVB production ever... say what you want about the quality of the song, but at least Anthem was unique... this is just a cheap cash in on that sound.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders I think you guys completely miss the target audience for this record! He's simply trying to fill in the gap on the album with as much varied material for as many people as possible and what's wrong with that? That simply means that not everybody will like everything on the album, and as such this track isn't for everybody.

What exactly does that change though? It's a shit piece of music, and people who have a penchant for good music will see it as such. So he's making music for the lowest common denominator...great!

It's a fantastic way to quickly lose artistic credibility...in the eyes of people who actually care passionately. When you start talking about "target audience" and "as many people as possible" in relation to an artist, its no longer for the sake of artistic expression and all for the cash machine.

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Originally posted by Clovis What exactly does that change though? It's a shit piece of music, and people who have a penchant for good music will see it as such. So he's making music for the lowest common denominator...great! It's a fantastic way to quickly lose artistic credibility...in the eyes of people who actually care passionately. When you start talking about "target audience" and "as many people as possible" in relation to an artist, its no longer for the sake of artistic expression and all for the cash machine.

But isn't music subjective tho? I mean what is shit to you may not be to person X or person Y. If you like this sound, does it automatically mean you don't care passionately, does it mean that their opinion automatically means nothing? It all depends on how you look at it and whether what you think (generally speaking not about you) carries more weight than someone else, someone who perhaps didn't listen to Armin 8 years ago.

Is it also not within the realm of possibility that he just maybe likes this sound. Who are we to criticize what he should or shouldn't make, it's his artistic expression, no matter what way it goes!

Is it also not within the realm of possibility that records like these are a bridge for people who aren't necessarily into trance music to venture over and see what else lies within?

Reaching for a wider audience does not make you a sell out. What's wrong with wanting to expose your music to as many people as possible? Hell what's the purpose of sites like myspace, it's to further your sound to as many as possible. I know it's what I want, personally speaking. If I wanted to make music just for myself, I'd do that and not send it to anyone else.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders But isn't music subjective tho? I mean what is shit to you may not be to person X or person Y. If you like this sound, does it automatically mean you don't care passionately, does it mean that their opinion automatically means nothing? It all depends on how you look at it and whether what you think (generally speaking not about you) carries more weight than someone else, someone who perhaps didn't listen to Armin 8 years ago. Is it also not within the realm of possibility that he just maybe likes this sound. Who are we to criticize what he should or shouldn't make, it's his artistic expression, no matter what way it goes! Is it also not within the realm of possibility that records like these are a bridge for people who aren't necessarily into trance music to venture over and see what else lies within?

How many releases have you got on Armada?

Funny how some shit release like this one can get so many bashes and go over 6 pages but, on the other hand, some great release gets max 2-3. Sad really..

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Originally posted by smakmagik How many releases have you got on Armada?

Oh so just because I have records on his label, that automatically invalidates my statement?

You guys are too quick to condemn and presume, can only see it from your perspective, but there's also the perspective of the artist.

People who make music for money, well, it's very obvious that they do just by listening to their body of work.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders Oh so just because I have records on his label, that automatically invalidates my statement? You guys are too quick to condemn and presume, can only see it from your perspective, but there's also the perspective of the artist. People who make music for money, well, it's very obvious that they do just by listening to their body of work.

Not to sound like an ass, but doesn't that sort of negate what you said a moment ago? I don't see this as anything but a rather poorly done commercial work - whether Armin and Shah like it or not is irrelevant. "Just by listening", I've formed an opinion on the body of their work.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders Oh so just because I have records on his label, that automatically invalidates my statement? You guys are too quick to condemn and presume, can only see it from your perspective, but there's also the perspective of the artist. People who make music for money, well, it's very obvious that they do just by listening to their body of work.

Doesn't invalidate it, it just makes you look at it completely differently.

Music is subjective yes, but defending something like this from a completely hypocritical artist who bashes Dj Sammy who in all truth makes more 'trance' than Armin in recent times, is just sad.

If you should go, Going Wrong, Saturday Night and whatever other tripe is going on his new album, it isn't making music for a particular audience, it's selling out AGAINST his own earlier admissions.

It is not trance, the vocals are cliched, the vocalist is completely off-key, and this is apparantly a collaboration between the god of 'trance' and the king of balaeric music.

How can you defend something like this? It's not that its not our kind of music, that is subjective, its just SHIT music. It's not a matter of taste, but a matter of quality. How you cannot see that is beyond me.

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Originally posted by Shade Not to sound like an ass, but doesn't that sort of negate what you said a moment ago? I don't see this as anything but a rather poorly done commercial work - whether Armin and Shah like it or not is irrelevant. "Just by listening", I've formed an opinion on the body of their work.

How is it irrelevant? So If I made a sound that "I like" but everybody deemed it to be 'commercial', that means my reasons for making it are not important? Come on! First and foremost, music is self-expression, whatever that expression may be. I know for a fact that Armin makes records that HE wants to make, not to sell a lot of records. Someone in his position doesn't need to rely on record sales for an income, I'm pretty sure he makes tons more gigging than off the music, as pretty much does any artist in any genre of music.

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Originally posted by smakmagik It is not trance, the vocals are cliched, the vocalist is completely off-key, and this is apparantly a collaboration between the god of 'trance' and the king of balaeric music. How can you defend something like this? It's not that its not our kind of music, that is subjective, its just SHIT music. It's not a matter of taste, but a matter of quality. How you cannot see that is beyond me.

I am not defending this record and personally speaking, it's not my thing either, but that's the beauty of music, everybody likes something else.

What I am defending is simply the right for the artist to express himself musically. It's a bit difficult to see things from this perspective unless you are an artist yourself.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders I am not defending this record and personally speaking, it's not my thing either, but that's the beauty of music, everybody likes something else. What I am defending is simply the right for the artist to express himself musically. It's a bit difficult to see things from this perspective unless you are an artist yourself.

Mate, have you seen the video interview where he bashes Dj Sammy for 'ruining the trance scene' by making music and calling it trance??

He can make whatever he wants, god help the people who buy it and still worship him, but his hypocritical attitude just pisses me off.

Dj Sammy should sue the piece of shit

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Originally posted by 8Wonders How is it irrelevant? So If I made a sound that "I like" but everybody deemed it to be 'commercial', that means my reasons for making it are not important? Come on! First and foremost, music is self-expression, whatever that expression may be. I know for a fact that Armin makes records that HE wants to make, not to sell a lot of records. Someone in his position doesn't need to rely on record sales for an income, I'm pretty sure he makes tons more gigging than off the music, as pretty much does any artist in any genre of music.

I don't doubt that Armin makes more off of gigging than he does off of his tracks (although I'm sure he makes plenty off both with the name that he's made for himself). In any case, that wasn't my point.

Let's take the example of a new producer who doesn't have a clue about working whatever program he's purchased. He might love whatever it is he's doing (which is very important), but at the same time it's also extremely important to realize that quality - at least to some extent - is objective. The same applies here, regardless of whether the two artists in question have the capability of proving themselves as better than that.

It's important that for an artist to like whatever he/she is doing. There is, however, a factor where something becomes decidedly poor, commercial and cheesey and it is the artists responsibility to know where that line is drawn.

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Originally posted by Shade I don't doubt that Armin makes more off of gigging than he does off of his tracks (although I'm sure he makes plenty off both with the name that he's made for himself). In any case, that wasn't my point. Let's take the example of a new producer who doesn't have a clue about working whatever program he's purchased. He might love whatever it is he's doing (which is very important), but at the same time it's also extremely important to realize that quality - at least to some extent - is objective. The same applies here, regardless of whether the two artists in question have the capability of proving themselves as better than that. It's important that for an artist to like whatever he/she is doing. There is, however, a factor where something becomes decidedly poor, commercial and cheesey and it is the artists responsibility to know where that line is drawn.

The comment about money is a valid point because whenever someone says 'sell out', clearly they are talking about just an easy way of making money, and I'm just trying to show that Armin doesn't need records for that.

You are comparing apples and oranges there. You are comparing an already established artist, with 10+ years of experience producing and DJ and with a good understanding of what records work and what don't, vs someone who is just starting out.

Poor or not, that is all subjective. Some like Cygnus X - Superstrings is godly, some think it's cheesy as fuck, but whose opinion is the more valid one?

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Originally posted by 8Wonders Poor or not, that is all subjective. Some like Cygnus X - Superstrings is godly, some think it's cheesy as fuck, but whose opinion is the more valid one?

You miss the point again. People may or may not LIKE Superstrings, but the quality of the production is above a certain standard. Same can't be said of Going Wrong.

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Originally posted by smakmagik Mate, have you seen the video interview where he bashes Dj Sammy for 'ruining the trance scene' by making music and calling it trance?? He can make whatever he wants, god help the people who buy it and still worship him, but his hypocritical attitude just pisses me off. Dj Sammy should sue the piece of shit

I have seen it and it's quite funny and true

Dj Sammy - Heaven ... no matter what you may think of this Armin record, it doesn't even come within 100 light years of that in terms of cheese

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Originally posted by 8Wonders I have seen it and it's quite funny and true Dj Sammy - Heaven ... no matter what you may think of this Armin record, it doesn't even come within 100 light years of that in terms of cheese

He didn't say cheese, he said trance. Dj Sammy - Heaven is wayyyyyy more 'trance' than this.

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Originally posted by smakmagik He didn't say cheese, he said trance. Dj Sammy - Heaven is wayyyyyy more 'trance' than this.

I think we agree to disagree then. I'd call Heaven anything but trance.

I should remix this, just to piss everyone else off

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Originally posted by 8Wonders I think we agree to disagree then. I'd call Heaven anything but trance. I should remix this, just to piss everyone else off

is not trance but compared to going wrong, is trance

yeah, that doesn't make sense but wtvr

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Originally posted by 8Wonders Reaching for a wider audience does not make you a sell out. What's wrong with wanting to expose your music to as many people as possible? Hell what's the purpose of sites like myspace, it's to further your sound to as many as possible. I know it's what I want, personally speaking. If I wanted to make music just for myself, I'd do that and not send it to anyone else.

Because you can do that without making music like this to a "target audience"

Making music for ones self does not mean no one else but you will like it. It means you make music that you believe in and not what you think someone else wants to hear. Also, if Armin likes this track then he has pretty poor taste. Music is subjective to a point, you can't say that a Britney Spears song is just as good as Sia tune "because its all subjective". In terms of what people like, yes, but in terms of art, no. These lyrics are fluffy, superficial, and stereotypical. The track is formulaic and uses the same elements we've all heard over and over in the past. And once again, I'm sure people will like this track, just as lots of people like music that I don't find interesting or artistically inspiring, but I am allowed to voice my opinions on a forum meant for discussing music, just as you are. I fully understand who this track is trying to appeal to, and they are not the kind of people posting in this thread for the most part.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders I think we agree to disagree then. I'd call Heaven anything but trance. I should remix this, just to piss everyone else off

Gotta love the double standards.

It's good to know the money hungry whores can rely on you to represent them whenever they are being bashed on these forums, though.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Gotta love the double standards. It's good to know the money hungry whores can rely on you to represent them whenever they are being bashed on these forums, though.

In case you didn't notice, it was a sarcastic remark.

I am not representing anyone but myself, but I can always depend on you to hop onboard the hate wagon, that's for sure.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders What I am defending is simply the right for the artist to express himself musically. It's a bit difficult to see things from this perspective unless you are an artist yourself.

Then again there's a difference between expressing yourself musically and producing a completely calculated, soulless, heartless piece of "music" to put bread on the table.

As an artist you really should know this.

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Originally posted by 8Wonders In case you didn't notice, it was a sarcastic remark. I am not representing anyone but myself, but I can always depend on you to hop onboard the hate wagon, that's for sure.

Whoa, the hater card. Really quite unexpected.

Someone find that interview where he says if he could play whatever he wanted it would be mostly "weird ambient stuff" and that involver was one of his favorite CDs.

I mean, he's been playing to this "audience" for years. I think Armin stopped expressing himself musically a long time ago...

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