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-- Emotion in Modern EDM
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| Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think that a lot of people these days have adopted an attitude I'll call "meanspirited lightheartedness." It's sort of a different take on "not taking things seriously." Instead of "don't needlessly stress yourself out by taking things too seriously" it's more like "don't take things too seriously -- so that you can make fun of lots of things, look cool, and disclaim any emotional involvement." |
I love emotion in the tracks i listen.
I couldn't care less for what is popular/fashionable and i follow my own trends.
I like emotional sounding trance, but be it different from what most would consider the cheese from 1998 - 2003 and especially not the so called trance classics from that era.
I have a reasonable different definition for what i call trance, i see melodic and harmonic sounding 4/4 electronica that is made to invoke emotions as trance.
Not all such trance creations do i like, oh no no no no...
There are certain things i really hate about many trance tracks, i hate clones of the 1998 - 2003 era, i hate the euphoric bland tracks that just keep coming year after year and that other people seem to love to death [currently i'm listening to such a bland track, yech.]
I do love melancholy in trance or rightly presented excitement.
I do like a good mix between all elements of a track and dancability.
Long breakdowns don't throw me off if they're well done and add to a track.
Tracks i really like: Kenneth Thomas & Mike Skye - Varekai [Alt+F4 Remix]
D-Air - Abrente [Alexey Selin Remix]
Duderstadt - Muhanjala [Sean Tyas Remix]
Hybrid - Finished Symphony [Deadmau5 Remix]
Hawk - Need for Cognition [Original Mix]
Myon - Albion [Original Mix]
Smith & Pledger - Northern Lights [Original Mix]
Joonas Hahmo - Sound of Sunday [Original Mix]
David West - Suffering Island [Joonas Hahmo Mix]
Boom Jinx ft. Thomas J Bergerson - Remember September [Original Mix]
Above & Beyond - Getaway [Original Mix]
Kyau & Albert - Falling Anywhere [Original Mix]
Jonas Steur - Second Turn [Original Mix]
Carl B - Just a Thought [Original Mix]
Ayu - Appears [Kyau & Albert Dub]
JPL - Mirakel [Sup�er Remix]
I admit, some of it quite cheesy, but i don't care, cause i like it.
For me there's emotion to these tracks, regardless of what other may proclaim or theorize and they resonate with my emotions.
Whether you like tracks with emotion or not or find it necessary to tell others that something is hot, sophisticated, good, emotional, complec, etc. or not, fact is that people have their own tastes for music and you have to respect that, whether you share the taste or not.
As far as emotion is concerned, think there's enough of it to find in EDM even though not in the same amount in the various styles.
I find trance to be quite emotional, especially the trance i like.
I can't speak for others though.
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| Originally posted by nefardec PETRAN, it's interesting that you make that distinction, because I had the same realization just a few hours ago as I was waiting for the train. The basic response is definitely not the same kind of emotion. I was thinking to myself whether or not it was in fact emotionless. The kind of music I was describe is rather meditative, and meditation is generally anti-emotion. Emotion clouds the meditation. Eliade, in that passage I quoted describes the reverse of the 'flood/deluge' (immersion) as the creation of form (emersion). I think emotion is related to this concept of creating a form from the formless. This is why I think melodic forms and structures carry emotions. But in all my personal experience meditative music becomes rather emotional. It's not an instant emotion that someone would get from a Power Chord, but it's an emotion arrived at from the repetition. We have to define emotion here for this thread to be useful. I mean, ambivalence, Loneliness, Boredom, Anxiety, Depression, etc can all be emotions that might correspond to minimal techno. They're not the same as 'Euphoria' obviously, but they are nonetheless emotions. In any case I think euphoria can build from repetition. (eg 808 state - the extended pleasure of dance, ricardo villalobos - 808 the bassqueen) tracks like the villalobos and jam & spoon - stella give me a certain kind of building reverie that is far stronger than the sugar high I could get on epic trance. simple dub techno tracks like atheus make me feel like i'm flying. it's a euphoria that stems from the freedom also if it makes any sense, I really like music that inspires a sense of wonder and mystery. wonder is an emotion, right? i definitely aim to create that sense of mystery in my own composition as you said, I believe melodic sequences are related to human language. Aril Brikha's Ex Machina is a great example of an emotional melody that 'speaks' However, there is plenty of emotion to be found chord changes over time. Chopin's Prelude, is a great example. |
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| Originally posted by david.michael Which opens the gate for another question... do the titles of songs affect your emotional response to them? In other words, would your emotional response to that song differ if it were named Mathew Jonson - Cold Blue Ocean or Mathew Jonson - Babies in a Blender (assuming you heard/read the title prior to hearing the song, or at all)? I think, yes. For me, anyway. Which seems shallow, but I definitely listen to a song differently than I would have when I don't know the title (or even artist), I think. |
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| Originally posted by Barachem I love emotion in the tracks i listen. I couldn't care less for what is popular/fashionable and i follow my own trends. I like emotional sounding trance, but be it different from what most would consider the cheese from 1998 - 2003 and especially not the so called trance classics from that era. I have a reasonable different definition for what i call trance, i see melodic and harmonic sounding 4/4 electronica that is made to invoke emotions as trance. Not all such trance creations do i like, oh no no no no... There are certain things i really hate about many trance tracks, i hate clones of the 1998 - 2003 era, i hate the euphoric bland tracks that just keep coming year after year and that other people seem to love to death [currently i'm listening to such a bland track, yech.] I do love melancholy in trance or rightly presented excitement. I do like a good mix between all elements of a track and dancability. Long breakdowns don't throw me off if they're well done and add to a track. Tracks i really like: Kenneth Thomas & Mike Skye - Varekai [Alt+F4 Remix] D-Air - Abrente [Alexey Selin Remix] Duderstadt - Muhanjala [Sean Tyas Remix] Hybrid - Finished Symphony [Deadmau5 Remix] Hawk - Need for Cognition [Original Mix] Myon - Albion [Original Mix] Smith & Pledger - Northern Lights [Original Mix] Joonas Hahmo - Sound of Sunday [Original Mix] David West - Suffering Island [Joonas Hahmo Mix] Boom Jinx ft. Thomas J Bergerson - Remember September [Original Mix] Above & Beyond - Getaway [Original Mix] Kyau & Albert - Falling Anywhere [Original Mix] Jonas Steur - Second Turn [Original Mix] Carl B - Just a Thought [Original Mix] Ayu - Appears [Kyau & Albert Dub] JPL - Mirakel [Sup�er Remix] I admit, some of it quite cheesy, but i don't care, cause i like it. For me there's emotion to these tracks, regardless of what other may proclaim or theorize and they resonate with my emotions. Whether you like tracks with emotion or not or find it necessary to tell others that something is hot, sophisticated, good, emotional, complec, etc. or not, fact is that people have their own tastes for music and you have to respect that, whether you share the taste or not. As far as emotion is concerned, think there's enough of it to find in EDM even though not in the same amount in the various styles. I find trance to be quite emotional, especially the trance i like. I can't speak for others though. |
there are some things i am seeing in this thread that should be clarified:
in the beginning of the thread, i think most were using the word "emotion" to describe a beautiful happy feeling. but later it was discussed that we're actually referring to a broader range of feelings.
then, it was finger pointing mostly at the current popularity of minimal/tech as the reason for the perception there is lack of "emotion" in modern EDM.
then, people who are currently into the minimal sound defend minimal by saying it causes the same emotional response as trance, but in an abstract non direct way.
then, there is the argument of which is better, indirect or direct, which i think people are agreeing neither is better, but there is still the preferences of each poster to lean towards one or the other.
The first problem started with claiming minimal is emotional in an indirect way. minimal is not emotional or non emotional, it is just an attribute or way of approaching art. there are emotions or feelings expressed in a minimal way in some minimal tracks, and there are other minimal tracks which were not intended to express any particular emotions or feelings at all. for example you could take a happy feeling trance track, and express it in a minimal way, an abstract non direct obvious way. in today's trend, that most likely would mean slowing the bpm down, reducing the amount of instrumentation and shortening the duration of sounds being used. that description could spark a long argument though, but lets just generalize for the sake of brevity and staying on topic.
GENERALLY, most minimal music for the dance floor today is not intended to evoke happy feelings, just as most drum circles dont either, key word most. there are minimal tracks that make you feel alive and energetic, happy, sad, or whatever feeling. then there are minimal tracks that dont spark so much a feeling, but rather a thought, a theme, an ideal. the important thing is, the amazing and very powerful thing about minimal, is when it has this effect on you, it is difficult to judge and describe why.
How can a simple arrangement of traditional drums trigger a range of moods? Tap the outer edge of the drum for a higher note, the middle for a lower note. The notes, the tones, are the key to emotions. Same goes for minimal dance music, its all in the tones when it comes to emotions. But there is so much more to music than just emotion.
The perception of lack of emotion in today's music I think has more to do with conformity and tradition. Its just a matter of people experimenting and trying new things. Clubbers dont just stick to listening to trance for 20 years and never wander anywhere else, rather, they eventually get tired of a sound and curiosity leads them to try other stuff. Same goes for music makers. Right now people are less interested in happy feeling music and more interested in hypnotic, meditative music, but also emotions presented in an abstract way. They also want to experiment with groove, swing, and variation within a 4x4 beat for the sake of conformity, and its just coincidence the closest genre that fell into this is minimal/tech. Abstract art has always had an older audience. As the first generation of clubbers are now getting into their 30's and 40's, this is a natural progression. Unfortunately, as with abstract minimalist art galleries, snootiness and pretentiousness is common. It shouldn't have to be this way, but people aren't perfect.
The problem I have, is that minimal dance is mostly a minimal form of tech house, which has never had much emotion in it, nor has it ever been very cerebral, it was always more about groove and variety. There's a pendulum that swings and right now we are shifting into new forms of dance music and we are unbalanced. Eventually it will balance out where the things we've forgotten in the past will be remembered and incorporated back into these new forms of dance music in these confusing times. There's a whole lot more reasons for the general feeling of dance today and its not just the music itself, its the people themselves.
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| Originally posted by PETRAN To clear-things up about emotions, most scientists thing that the basic emotions are "Happyness", "Sadness", "Fear", "Anger" and "Disgust" although some have argued that "Joy" and "Surprise" must be added to the "basic list". You get all rest emotions, by "mixing" different proportions of these basic ones and varying their "intensity" which is called "arousal". As a result, "sadness" of low arousal is "melancholy" whereas of "high arousal" is "depression". "High arousal" "sadness" with a bit of "anger" makes "despair", "high arousal" "anger" with maybe a bit of "disgust" makes "hate", "high arousal" "joy" makes "ecstacy", "sadness" of medium arousal mixed with a bit of happyness makes "nostalgia" etc. etc. it is like colours really. |
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| Originally posted by PETRAN Furthermore, despite the "euphoria", i mostly get the emotion of "nostalgia" from epic trance, that is medium arousal "sadness" mixed with "happyness". A representative example: |
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| Originally posted by nefardec Where is this from? This seems very awkward to me, either like fitting a square peg through a round hole or just oversimplifying... (in any case despair is fear+sadness )Nostalgia is what I would get from listening to some epic trance tracks as well. It's kind of a nostalgia for childhood/lost innocence. I tend to think people who are older than 21 and still swear by epic trance have problems growing up for that reason. |
No, I'm talking about people who 'swear' by epic trance - as in that's the only thing they will listen to and will defend it to the end.
I think a broader taste in music is a sign of maturity because it usually implies a broader range of emotions with more differences in subtlety.
obviously there is a lot of nostalgia going on. if you listen to seven cities now I don't think you can deny that (consciously or not) you're reliving past experiences.
and yes, there was a bit of humor (as there generally is in everything I say/do) in that statement.
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| Originally posted by nefardec No, I'm talking about people who 'swear' by epic trance - as in that's the only thing they will listen to and will defend it to the end. I think a broader taste in music is a sign of maturity because it usually implies a broader range of emotions with more differences in subtlety. obviously there is a lot of nostalgia going on. if you listen to seven cities now I don't think you can deny that (consciously or not) you're reliving past experiences. and yes, there was a bit of humor (as there generally is in everything I say/do) in that statement. |
I didn't answer because I have to go through some tracks to answer that, and I'm not at home with my collection.
but it's obviously going to be subjective since we're dealing with emotions and music..
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| Originally posted by stev�sto there are some things i am seeing in this thread that should be clarified: How can a simple arrangement of traditional drums trigger a range of moods? Tap the outer edge of the drum for a higher note, the middle for a lower note. The notes, the tones, are the key to emotions. Same goes for minimal dance music, its all in the tones when it comes to emotions. But there is so much more to music than just emotion. |
| quote: |
| The perception of lack of emotion in today's music I think has more to do with conformity and tradition. Its just a matter of people experimenting and trying new things. Clubbers dont just stick to listening to trance for 20 years and never wander anywhere else, rather, they eventually get tired of a sound and curiosity leads them to try other stuff. Same goes for music makers. Right now people are less interested in happy feeling music and more interested in hypnotic, meditative music, but also emotions presented in an abstract way. They also want to experiment with groove, swing, and variation within a 4x4 beat for the sake of conformity, and its just coincidence the closest genre that fell into this is minimal/tech. Abstract art has always had an older audience. As the first generation of clubbers are now getting into their 30's and 40's, this is a natural progression. Unfortunately, as with abstract minimalist art galleries, snootiness and pretentiousness is common. It shouldn't have to be this way, but people aren't perfect. |
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| The problem I have, is that minimal dance is mostly a minimal form of tech house, which has never had much emotion in it, nor has it ever been very cerebral, it was always more about groove and variety. There's a pendulum that swings and right now we are shifting into new forms of dance music and we are unbalanced. Eventually it will balance out where the things we've forgotten in the past will be remembered and incorporated back into these new forms of dance music in these confusing times. There's a whole lot more reasons for the general feeling of dance today and its not just the music itself, its the people themselves. |
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| Originally posted by nefardec I didn't answer because I have to go through some tracks to answer that, and I'm not at home with my collection. but it's obviously going to be subjective since we're dealing with emotions and music.. |
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| Originally posted by nefardec deadbeat is great, a big inspiration right now I suggest everyone listen to: Deadbeat - Live @ Space Lab Yellow Tokyo 08.2005 Download |
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| Originally posted by PETRAN I agree with you, and in doing that, i'll assume that the complexity of "notes" and "tones" are correlated with emotion, with more elaborate compositions correlating with more or stronger emotions wheres the simpler/poorer (ehmm "minimal" ones) ones relate to "minimal" (poor, low) emotions. |
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| Originally posted by l�cid i've never been disappointed by anything you've recommended, so i decided to check this one out. i'm listening to it right now at work and absolutely loving it. thanks for posting the link! |
I listen to everything from Pink Floyd to early 90s grunge and/or shoegaze for inspiration... Whenever I have my iPod on, I'm usually not listening to trance... As a producer, I look for every other style to give me some emotion which I can be inspired to put in my track... I don't say, "I want this song to sound like that new PVD song" or "I want this to be SVD-ish"... I say, "I want this to have an emotional melody reminiscent of a sad R.E.M. song. It's always different everytime, but that's usually my process... For example, my newest tune contains a melody inspired from "Cover Me" by the soft-rock and alternative Merz from the UK (http://www.myspace.com/merzuk), just for example... Not sure if that answers the question but that's how I do things 
I forgot which DJ told me this, but it was something along the lines of, It's very very easy to make a banger, something that makes people go crazy in the club... But it's very hard to make a song that makes them think. It kinda makes sense in a wierd way... Tunes like "Southern Sun" or "Born Slippy" do more than make you dance in my opinion. They make you think about life or the moment and touch your emotions... I may be getting too deep here but that's, imo, the best EDM, thought-provoking EDM. Tech-trance and electro-house is ear-friendly but doesn't really make you think. I think minimal can be classified as making you think, as it's not so easy to grasp the first few times you hear it out, but can be beautiful once you do (and if it's one of the 10% of GREAT minimal tracks that are well-made). Just my 2 cents...
The only thing 'southern sun' makes me think about is how shit it is. 
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| Originally posted by stev�sto sure you can assume all you want. i dont believe more complex compositions = more stronger emotions. thats implying maximalism is better than minimalism. a more direct approach to evoking emotions would be lyric based, its more specific. but EDM has always been about less words and more instrumentation and making you dance, the indirect approach. dancing is a form of "no mind" meditation. by not thinking, there is less chatter in your head allowing you to think deeper and bridge the concious with subconcious. by not thinking you are able to think more clearly. with lyric based music being the maximalism end of the spectrum, minimal techno is the minimal end. within minimalism the spectrum of skelatism is the "ohm", the constant tone on one end, with massification being the emotional chakra on the other. eventually things come full circle when there is so much massification within minimalism, that it becomes the ultimate skeletalism form. iow, you combine so much noise and so many elements that it eventually becomes one big mush or one constant tone, the "ohm". there was an experiment done on the net not too long ago where someone combined something like 1000 different songs into one song, and it ended up being a constant tone. so, there is no perfect place in the wheel, they are just different places to match different states of mind on the path to enlightenment. |
Been doing a bit of thinking about this lately:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...5&forumid=16&s=
It seems like most people experience fewer extremes of emotion as they get older, and it's harder for music or other things to provoke them into intense feelings.
So, is part of this "lack of emotion" that people talk about the subjective side of a generation of EDM listeners "growing up" and becoming more "immune" to emotional extremes?
no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distin...gement_of_Taste
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| Originally posted by d-miurge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distin...gement_of_Taste |
more recently, a few songs which come to mind for me are:
dj eco - tonight is forever (martin roth edit)* (armin dropped the hell out of it last night in nyc)
leon bolier - ocean drive boulevard
orjan neilsen - la guitarra
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