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LOL, you haven't schooled me on anything. Instead you keep ignoring your own blindsighted one-track mind, and keep trying to lecture me about words you know little about.

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Originally posted by CHRles LOL, you haven't schooled me on anything. Instead you keep ignoring your own blindsighted one-track mind, and keep trying to lecture me about words you know little about.

I'm sorry what?

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Originally posted by CHRles Actually it's the other way around - you know why so many people hate Hamas and Hezbollah yet you don't really care

hmmm so many people such as? Israelie or American people? If only you knew their cause for fighting then perhaps you wouldnt just hate them because fox news told you so.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm sorry what?

Don't you have any other pics on your computer besides that one?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer hmmm so many people such as? Israelie or American people? If only you knew their cause for fighting then perhaps you wouldnt just hate them because fox news told you so.

i would venture to say that europeans, japanese, koreans, and sub-saharan africans don't support them. essentially, the only people who support them are muslims.

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Originally posted by CHRles Don't you have any other pics on your computer besides that one?

Can't your arguments not be riddled with childish fallacies? Illicit conversion fallacy. Do you understand what that means?

Here's a list...maybe you might learn something...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Krypton, I just figured that you had more pics of me from back in my South Park days, but I guess I was wrong (happens on occasion).

BTW, I definitely don't think all Arabs or muslims are backwards, that is a very unfair and general statement to make. Most of the Lebanese aren't Hezbollah supporters, not even all Shiites in fact support their "cause". The only celeb supporter they have is Sexy Haifa.
Additionally, there are countries with very modern or interesting urban settings, such as Rabat and Casablanca in Morocco, Dubai and Abu Dhabi in the UAE, or Amman in Jordan and Beirut in Lebanon. Istanbul's skyscrapers and modern architecture actually resemble those of Tel Aviv and its suburb of Ramat Gan.
There's also centers of education, most notably Cairo in Egypt, and a huge media city/center in places like Dubai.
As far as backwards roads, you'd prolly have to look at Yemen, where most people are dirt poor.
As far as tolerance goes, countries like Tunisia tend to lead the way if I'm not mistaken. Women are pretty liberated over there, and wear pretty much whatever they feel like.

Back to the topic,for those who cant understand why Iran is going after nukes(all assumptions btw) it is perhaps because the US has given the Iranians little reason to trust them and their ultimatums and much justification to defend themselves by any means necessary.


Perhaps Iran has good reasons why they act the way they do when it comes to Israel and the US politics towards them and why they are preparing themselves for the worst case scenerio. Lets see if the past has something to do with these behaviors.

Iran's democratically-elected President Mossadegh was overthrown in 1953 for trying to privatize his Oil Industry. Washington had a fit, fearing they would loose precious oil revenue and ordered the CIA to overthrow him and replace him with a US Puppet.

That sock puppet was the Shah who Iranians suffered under for 28 years. He tortured and imprisoned tens of thousands people with his CIA-backed secret police and basically wanted to turn Iran into a model America. He walked, talked and acted like an American and absolutely disregarded his people's opinion and tradition.

Now let's fast forward to 1981. Iran is invade by Iraq, with plenty of US backing I might add thanks to the good folks at the CIA.
The same folks who decided giving Saddam chemical precursors to make anthrax and nerve gas was a good idea.


Iran suffers millions of casualties, it's major urban areas suffer extensive damage, Saddam gasses the Kurds and the Iranians are screwed yet again by the US.
Then the US invade Iraq a decade later to rid Saddam of the weapons you gave him, smart.

And how could you forget IranAir flight 655?
A plane packed full of kids and ordinary travelers is shot down by the USS Vincennes in the Persian Gulf in 1988, because apparently they mistook for an Iranian F-14.
275 people gone for what?
Yeah a Jumbo Jet and an F-14... apples and oranges.
Btw, another fun fact, Iran got it's F-14's from the US when the Shah was in power, isn't it ironic?
Their using your own medicine against you, just like Saddam did.

Now, from the above sequence of events, how do you think ordinary Iranians would feel when the US again, pressures the nation and threatens attack?

You think Ahmadinejad is going to take the accusations and ultimatums of George Bush seriously? A man who's judgment is so impaired and miscalculated he started two disastrous wars with absolutely no justification or compelling evidence?

No freakin' wonder he wants to deter a US attack with Bush & Co. at the helm of the world's largest military force.
Iran is not in a happy position, being surrounded by US forces and bases on all sides. I would be arming myself to the teeth if a man like that told me "All options are on the table."


By the way didnt America start it's own Nuclear Programme all those years ago? The US was in the exact same position as the Iranians; rumors of a German programme under development fueled yours, yet here America is trying to attack Iran for sticking up for itself?

Oh yeah what whackjobs!
Standing up to decades of US aggression..


American policy so hypocritical and back-&-forth it's no wonder everyone is waking up and standing up to decades of America hegemony.
How the hell do you expect America to be trusted by nations like Iran if you can't decide for yourselves who's friend and who's foe?

20 years ago Saddam was an Ally, today he's dead.
30 years ago Iran was an Ally, today you want to nuke them.


As for Israel nukes,lets not forget that this is the same Israel that publically stated they would be willing to use Nuclear Weapons in certain situations:

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"All options are on the table, not only in the future."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943594.html

Not only they have Nuclear Weapons but acquired them in secret without any discussion, then Iran most certainly can have them. The hypocrisies displayed in US Foreign Policy are not fair and not justified. Iran has yet to attack anyone.

Iran has done little to evoke such a staunchly bad reputation in America, and has much reason to fear an American attack.
US Foreign Policy has to stop picking sides and stop playing "Good Cop, Bad Cop" whenever it suits them.

Unless some damning allegations and evidence surface, Iran just needs to be left alone and not forced into a corner before it's really forced to do something drastic.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Back to the topic,for those who cant understand why Iran is going after nukes(all assumptions btw) it is perhaps because the US has given the Iranians little reason to trust them and their ultimatums and much justification to defend themselves by any means necessary.

right. so since iran doesn't have the ability to launch ICBMs that will reach the US, what you're really saying is that it is acceptable for the iranians to develop (and presumably use) these weapons on their own soil or on the soil of their neighbour(s) in response to a US attack?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Bottom line the U.S simply doesnt understand middle east and they just never get it right,all they think about is regime change and oil.

Some of the US population doesn't, it's a shame some of them are in the white house.

Reading Foreign Affairs gives a different perspective about what "the US" understands. There are some very good, critical, and measured writers that submit essays after having experienced things first hand (for example the current issue has an essay by the former envoy to Sudan).

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Originally posted by CHRles Krypton, I just figured that you had more pics of me from back in my South Park days, but I guess I was wrong (happens on occasion). BTW, I definitely don't think all Arabs or muslims are backwards, that is a very unfair and general statement to make. Most of the Lebanese aren't Hezbollah supporters, not even all Shiites in fact support their "cause". The only celeb supporter they have is Sexy Haifa. Additionally, there are countries with very modern or interesting urban settings, such as Rabat and Casablanca in Morocco, Dubai and Abu Dhabi in the UAE, or Amman in Jordan and Beirut in Lebanon. Istanbul's skyscrapers and modern architecture actually resemble those of Tel Aviv and its suburb of Ramat Gan. There's also centers of education, most notably Cairo in Egypt, and a huge media city/center in places like Dubai. As far as backwards roads, you'd prolly have to look at Yemen, where most people are dirt poor. As far as tolerance goes, countries like Tunisia tend to lead the way if I'm not mistaken. Women are pretty liberated over there, and wear pretty much whatever they feel like.

Ok, let's go back to your original conclusion. Iran is a backwards radicalized terrorist country no? You gave no premises to support your argument. So I ask you to EXPLAIN. <---This is where we always have trouble with you...

I'm all ears CHRles...Tell me why Iran is a backwards terrorist radical country?

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Originally posted by Krypton Ok, let's go back to your original conclusion. Iran is a backwards radicalized terrorist country no? You gave no premises to support your argument. So I ask you to EXPLAIN. <---This is where we always have trouble with you... I'm all ears CHRles...Tell me why Iran is a backwards terrorist radical country?

Iran, a country based on hate of others. The 1979 Revolution means less freedom for all, even less freedom for women, supports global terrorism rather then peace efforts, and a whole host of other things.

Hardcore Trancer's reply was well written, but very one sided. It ignored all the evils, and I'll say it again all the evils that Iran has done over the years. Much moreso then the evils the US has done. Furthermore, trancer mentioned America started two disastrous wars with no justification. There was all too much justification to go into Afghanistan, and as far as Iraq goes it was already decided in the Clinton years that at some point we'd need to take care of Iraq. Sadam constantly provoked the UN, the US, and failed to comply with leaders far superior to him.
The US has tried to help settle disputes around the world, has helped advance medical and science causes, and gives its people a much greater freedom and librties. Can't say the same for Iran.
Hell, you go to Iran and they're still proud of taking hostage American civilians. The former American embassy still has things like "down with the USA" written on it. Do you see any such buildings here in the US? Maybe we should have buildings in Washington that say "down with Iran".
The CIA has operations all over the world, as do the British, the French, and the Russians, and a few other countries. I'm glad there were CIA agents in Iran trying to help take down the Iranian Revolution party. I'm just sorry they didn't succeed b/c if they did Iran would be a much better place today.
America supported Iraq in the 80s b/c Iraq was fighting Iran, and since Iran was the one saying vile things about the US, and took Americans as hostages, it's only natural America sided with Sadam. Iran has no one to blame but itself for that. Iraq was seen as a much more secular country as well. America was wrong though in supplying Sadam with chemical weapons, but then again there were other western powers that supplied Iraq with nuclear technology. The West gave these weapons to Iraq in case it needed it for defense against Iran, but Sadam misused these weapons. It's a good thing ISRAEL DESTROYED Iraq's nuclear capabilities in the early 80s.

Even as far as traffic problems, it may seem like the roads are really congested here, but from what I've read it's much worse in cities like Teharn, even with their public transportation system. Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran.

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Originally posted by CHRles Iran, a country based on hate of others. The 1979 Revolution means less freedom for all, even less freedom for women, supports global terrorism rather then peace efforts, and a whole host of other things.

First of all, the 1979 revolution was to remove western control from Iran (that must be evil right?) which was a good thing.

You also mention "all the evils that Iran has done over the years". My question to you is, can you name me some that has affected the world as an entire and not just Israel. The evils America has done in Iraq would be far worse than anything i might add.

"Supports Global terrorism", how far is "Global" to your standards? They support Hezbollah, based in the Middle East. America supports the Israel terrorism machine.. they also supported Al Queda also.

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Can't say the same for Iran. Hell, you go to Iran and they're still proud of taking hostage American civilians. The former American embassy still has things like "down with the USA" written on it. Do you see any such buildings here in the US? Maybe we should have buildings in Washington that say "down with Iran".

As a reminder to the people, that's all. Can you explain to me what you think of Mossadegh? Even Madeline Albright apologized for what America did by kicking out the democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh. But, he must be evil because America hated him... actually UK used USA as their puppet again.

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Even as far as traffic problems, it may seem like the roads are really congested here, but from what I've read it's much worse in cities like Teharn, even with their public transportation system. Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran.

How did you turn the discussion from politics into traffic? "Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran." I swear you talk shit out of your ass most of the time.

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Originally posted by Lemonad How did you turn the discussion from politics into traffic? "Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran." I swear you talk shit out of your ass most of the time.

Feel free to swear all you want, but that traffic comment has to do with previous statements made in this post about Iran.

very well said hardcore trancer, thats the first reply of yours ive seen over a paragraph!

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Originally posted by CHRles as far as Iraq goes it was already decided in the Clinton years that at some point we'd need to take care of Iraq. Sadam constantly provoked the UN, the US, and failed to comply with leaders far superior to him.

How is that a justification to invade Iraq? North Korea has been shirking the UN and international treaties for decades. Why don't we invade them too?

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Hell, you go to Iran and they're still proud of taking hostage American civilians. The former American embassy still has things like "down with the USA" written on it. Do you see any such buildings here in the US? Maybe we should have buildings in Washington that say "down with Iran".

Dictatorship pisses people off. Dictatorship with the support from foreign powers pisses people 2x off. Clearly, the USA was responsible for keeping the Shah in power. So therefore, they will incur a certain degree of hatred. How is it any wonder to you why the Iranians hate the American government so much.

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The CIA has operations all over the world, as do the British, the French, and the Russians, and a few other countries. I'm glad there were CIA agents in Iran trying to help take down the Iranian Revolution party. I'm just sorry they didn't succeed b/c if they did Iran would be a much better place today.

How would Iran be a much better place? The secret police of the Shah (SAVAK) were routinely arresting people for political crimes. They tortured their prisoners often by beating the soles of their feet. SAVAK also censored the press, books, and films. Their web of informants kept the Iranian people always afraid to talk politics, lest they are arrested for criticizing the Shah. This all with the support of foreign powers. Iran today, is free from foreign domination, and people in Iran no longer worry about being arrested in the middle of the night to be tortured in a SAVAK prison.

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Iran has no one to blame but itself for that. Iraq was seen as a much more secular country as well.

Iran get blame for what? Freeing itself from foreign domination? Iraq was a socialist country. Please tell me another socialist country America supports...???

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Even as far as traffic problems, it may seem like the roads are really congested here, but from what I've read it's much worse in cities like Teharn, even with their public transportation system. Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran.

So tell me how traffic congestion equates to a backwards civilization? That premise really is not a valid comparison. So the conclusion, that Iran is a backwards nation because they have traffic congestion is completely wrong...

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Originally posted by Krypton How is that a justification to invade Iraq? North Korea has been shirking the UN and international treaties for decades. Why don't we invade them too?

a) North Korea has nukes, which is a major threat for both South Korea and Japan.
b) the North Koreans actually talk to the US, China, Russia, and the EU, and agreements have been (somewhat) made.
c) North Korea's part in funding global terrorism is much smaller
d) We already had a war in Korea back in the 50s. How do you think South Korea came to be? South Korea has the US to thank for becoming such a successful country.

Madeline Albright is a great woman, very intelligent, and it's nice and all that she apologized on behalf of the US for things in the 50s. That doesnt mean those things weren't the best thing to do in the 50s. Iran wasn't the only country where you had CIA operatives help overthrow anti-Western leaders. In part it was to ensure that these countries wouldn't fall under the Soviet's spehre of influence, and in part b/c of economic interests (read oil).
The Shah's dictatorship and secret police were still better then the secret police Iran has today. And you think some of the other countries in the Middle East don't have a secret police? Like in Saudi Arabia? You think Afghanistan didn't have a secret police when the Taliban were in charge?
Again, I'm glad the CIA was planning on foiling Khomeini's attemps to throw the Shah, b/c Khomeini wasn't a man of peace - he was a man of lies, a man of hate, and a man of extremism. The Shah on the other hand was a dictator, but much more honest, had tolerance for other countries, and a good business sense. The Shah's problem was that he was deaf to listen to the common people on the street. Iran progressed too quickly under him, became too westernized under him, and most Iranians weren't ready for that.

And to those who think the current government of Iran has only acted in terrorism towards Israel, WRONG! They've funded different acts and different groups with different agendas all hellbent on destroying the West, or destroying traces of Western cultures in Moslim states. Somehow all the money Iran uses to fund these acts ends up going through banks in Dubai. That might be one of the next steps to counter Iran - persuade banks in the UAE not to deal with Iran...problem is of course that the UAE is located next to Iran and would be afraid Iran would find a way to terrorize the country. Iran helped fund terrorists in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, so why not the UAE? At some point though Dubai will have to pick sides between Saudi Arabia, Europe and America, vs Iran. My money would be on them siding with the West.
Don't expect Syria to stay an ally of Iran for too long either.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN right. so since iran doesn't have the ability to launch ICBMs that will reach the US, what you're really saying is that it is acceptable for the iranians to develop (and presumably use) these weapons on their own soil or on the soil of their neighbour(s) in response to a US attack?

I didnt say that,but remember one thing when/if they are attacked by the US or Israel what exactly do you want them to do?go cry to the UN for help?they will fight back with whatever they got.Isnt that a logical behaviour to fight back and defend the country?

So charles you were a big fan of shah it seems, what exactly has he done to make you a fan? do you get a kick out of the fact that he killed and tortured many of his own people?or the fact that he banned the freedom of religion in the country? I think I know the real reason though,you liked him simply because he was huge ass kisser to the US with no mind of his own living in a western style fantasy land.

Iam still trying to figure out WTF does the traffic situaion in Iran has to do with anything on this thread? are you still going on the whole "US is better then Iran"? you are really begining to sound pathetic and ignorant. Grow up

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Originally posted by CHRles Iran, a country based on hate of others. The 1979 Revolution means less freedom for all, even less freedom for women, supports global terrorism rather then peace efforts, and a whole host of other things. Hardcore Trancer's reply was well written, but very one sided. It ignored all the evils, and I'll say it again all the evils that Iran has done over the years. Much moreso then the evils the US has done. Furthermore, trancer mentioned America started two disastrous wars with no justification. There was all too much justification to go into Afghanistan, and as far as Iraq goes it was already decided in the Clinton years that at some point we'd need to take care of Iraq. Sadam constantly provoked the UN, the US, and failed to comply with leaders far superior to him. The US has tried to help settle disputes around the world, has helped advance medical and science causes, and gives its people a much greater freedom and librties. Can't say the same for Iran. Hell, you go to Iran and they're still proud of taking hostage American civilians. The former American embassy still has things like "down with the USA" written on it. Do you see any such buildings here in the US? Maybe we should have buildings in Washington that say "down with Iran". The CIA has operations all over the world, as do the British, the French, and the Russians, and a few other countries. I'm glad there were CIA agents in Iran trying to help take down the Iranian Revolution party. I'm just sorry they didn't succeed b/c if they did Iran would be a much better place today. America supported Iraq in the 80s b/c Iraq was fighting Iran, and since Iran was the one saying vile things about the US, and took Americans as hostages, it's only natural America sided with Sadam. Iran has no one to blame but itself for that. Iraq was seen as a much more secular country as well. America was wrong though in supplying Sadam with chemical weapons, but then again there were other western powers that supplied Iraq with nuclear technology. The West gave these weapons to Iraq in case it needed it for defense against Iran, but Sadam misused these weapons. It's a good thing ISRAEL DESTROYED Iraq's nuclear capabilities in the early 80s. Even as far as traffic problems, it may seem like the roads are really congested here, but from what I've read it's much worse in cities like Teharn, even with their public transportation system. Within a decade or two America will have smart roads and smart cars, which will help to eliminate much of our traffic congestion problems. It'll prolly take far longer for that to be resolved in Iran.

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a big ass block of text.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I didnt say that,but remember one thing when/if they are attacked by the US or Israel what exactly do you want them to do?go cry to the UN for help?they will fight back with whatever they got.Isnt that a logical behaviour to fight back and defend the country?

The single and only reason israel or the US is likely to attack iran is because of nukes not in spite of them.

so what youre saying is that you support the use of nuclear weapons, as long as its used by iran and not by the US or israel. gotcha.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN The single and only reason israel or the US is likely to attack iran is because of nukes not in spite of them. so what youre saying is that you support the use of nuclear weapons, as long as its used by iran and not by the US or israel. gotcha.

I was just about to post the same thing. It's so great that people have "noticed" that I'm somehow becoming more ignorant, LOL. Some ppl should be looking in the mirror instead.

What exactly is Iran's beef with Israel? It's not like they really give a shit about the Palestinian cause. Iran didn't take part in any of the Arab Israeli wars. Even in the 80s, after the revolution, Iran was buying weapons from Israel during Iran's war with Iraq.

Israel has been closely monitoring Iran's progress as far as developing nuclear weapons for the past 15 years. Why? Larglely b/c Iran always threatens to wipe Israel off the map. In fact, even as we speak, while Israel is celebrating its 60th anniversary mr. Ahmedanijad continues with his hate speeches about Israel being dead, or soon being eliminated. I don't see the prime ministers or presidents of neighboring countries promising and saying such things. You may not hear any positive words from people like Assad on Israel, but at the same time
Prior to Iran's ambition to obtain nukes Israel didn't have any desires to get into conflict with Iran. In the 70s, when the great Shah was in power there were direct flights between Israel and Iran.
So yeah, the Israeli lobby in Washington, and American lobbyists around the world keep pushing this topic to be resolved.
Nowadays Iran's a country with a leader who seriously thinks or claims there aren't even any gay people living there, or there isn't a gay "problem" that is "infecting" his country.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 yes, consumerism is what drives every economy, whether directly or indirectly. will you people please study economics before you post unintelligent comments about the economy.

sorry i was just ranting and no i'm not an economist like you "unfortunately" but as far as my comment what i was trying to say was that we are all driven into a society that is based on money which in anyway you look at it makes us slaves,thats all i was trying to say ...

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 clearly???? the dollar has stabalized in the past month against the Euro. the only reason the dollar lost so much ground was the fast decline in US interest rates. since the fed isn't concerned with growth as much as inflation at this point, you will see the dollar rise more in the future. when the euro bank comes around to lowering its benchmark you will see further advances from the dollar. furthermore, the dollar/GBP exchange is nearly the same as it was a year-and-a-half ago. when you talk about dollar going to shit, know your shit first so you don't sound unintelligent.

lol as long as the Federal reserve keeps manipulating the economy for the personal gain of the ruling class the american system is bound to be a continuing failure, it might have stabalized for now but the dollar is not going to be rising anytime soon if there aren't any major changes... as far as sounding unintelligent i don't know what your talking about when in truth clearly everyone know's what is going on at this point and its not lookin good for america and its working class citizens.

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Originally posted by SiLveR_NrGy_985 lol as long as the Federal reserve keeps manipulating the economy for the personal gain of the ruling class the american system is bound to be a continuing failure,

jesus, why do you even bother hanging around in the political discussions forum when its painfully obvious that you don't have the first fucking clue what you're talking about?

"manipulating the economy for the ruling class" jesus christ

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Originally posted by CHRles Hey, let's all chant together your slogan - Hezbollah! Hezbollah! Oh allah, we love the Hezbollah! Hamas! Hamas! Hamas! In Hamas We Trust! Down with USA! Down with zionsim! Down with the West! Let's kill all those infidels! Nope, no brainwashing going on at all with those chants in the background. Gotta love those Hezbollah and Hamas supporters - they have so much passion and positive energy Those 2 groups have done so much good for humanity. The high tech world, the sciences, noble peace prize winners, entertainment. Oh wait a minute! No those are all things Jews have done. Whoops.

Funny how you call me one sided but yet you dont even acknowledge the crimes commited by Israel. Iam shocked to see people like who blindly support Israel and dont mind the fact that millions out of your own pockets goes directly to their millitary machines to kill more Palestinians.

The US is literally throwing money at Israel every single year. Last year Bush & Co. gave the Israelis $2.46 billion dollars in "aid"
see here

I mean who else makes their planes, guns, tanks and munitions?
That tops the collective sum of all of the Iranian support, funding and armaments sent to Hezbollah easily.
You want to talk about state-sponsored terrorism, there's a shining example, the US funds and supports the same folks who have no regard for civilians, laws, rules or reputations.

Israel's creation has DESTROYED any chance for peace in the Holy Land, Hezbollah may not helping stability, but Israel has symbolically ripped the head off stability and placed it on a pike.
Their hegemony ensures the Middle East will turbulent for decades to come. Comparing Israel's and Iran's responsibilities to peace and stability is like comparing the responsibility of owning a pet rock, to bearing a child.

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