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- UEFA Euro 2008
-- [Group C] Netherlands - Italy
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Guess I was wrong then, but that offside rule is lame.

Ow yeah, way to start the tournament

trashing the world champion 3_0

nice game maybe we can win this tournament

After catching further replays, rule 11 - which was implemented on the call in the first goal makes perfect sense.

Panucci was hit out of bounds by Buffon, he looked up - saw that he wasn't able to get back into play in time. Then bent down and acted as if he was hurt. It was a dirty attempt to stop the game as Holland was threatening. Except it didn't work and the Dutch scored.
As soon as that happened he got up and ran to the referee arguing. The Italians can complain all they want about this call but it was as fair as anything and the rule should stand to prevent more players attempting lame play stoppages by faking injuries.

HOLLAND!!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLL!!

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Originally posted by eieregooie On this I simply disagree. The question whether or not a player "stepped outside" on purpose to cause offside would become arbitrary and hard to determine as well.

It wouldn't be something players would rely on (i would hope), if implemented. And it wouldn't be much trouble for refs. Refs always have trouble making decisions anyway.

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Does make sense to me. A player on the attacking team who's not going for the ball is considered not participating in the game. You could consider applying the same rule for defense but I don't think it would be very useful. It shouldn't have anything to do with being inside or outside the lines though. Players step outside the lines all the time which is ok as long as the ball remains in the field. Those players are still participating in the game aren't they?

The lines are in the field for many reasons, not just to set the ball boundaries. The offside line should start from the endline. And if a player is outside the endline then he isn't in play. He isn't inside the field, where the offside is counted one would think.

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A different issue are players leaving the field during an interruption for medical treatment or what not. They are not participating in the game anymore and could be considered officially dismissed. Therefore they're not allowed to return to the game until the referee says they can. In this case I totally agree that they shouldn't count for offside, and by the current rules I don't think they do. As for this game, the defender had already taken part in defensive action during this attack, so not counting him as one of the last two players because he was not going for the ball wouldn't have been possible anyway.

I'm not sure about this but I think the rule also applies to the players leaving the field for injuries. They also are counted as participating in play although they are outside the field. I may have to check that.

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Originally posted by denys envy After catching further replays, rule 11 - which was implemented on the call in the first goal makes perfect sense. Panucci was hit out of bounds by Buffon, he looked up - saw that he wasn't able to get back into play in time. Then bent down and acted as if he was hurt. It was a dirty attempt to stop the game as Holland was threatening. Except it didn't work and the Dutch scored. As soon as that happened he got up and ran to the referee arguing. The Italians can complain all they want about this call but it was as fair as anything and the rule should stand to prevent more players attempting lame play stoppages by faking injuries.

You said it: "he wasn't able to get back into play." He wasn't in play. It's just how I see it.

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Originally posted by sensorium The lines are in the field for many reasons, not just to set the ball boundaries. The offside line should start from the endline. And if a player is outside the endline then he isn't in play. He isn't inside the field, where the offside is counted one would think.

That's dumb, because a player could be in an onside position receiving a ball from, let's say, a cross. And a defender keeping him in this onside position would see this and promptly step out of bounds - resulting in an unfair offsides call. I don't see how that would be good at all.

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Originally posted by denys envy That's dumb, because a player could be in an onside position receiving a ball from, let's say, a cross. And a defender keeping him in this onside position would see this and promptly step out of bounds - resulting in an unfair offsides call. I don't see how that would be good at all.

It's not dumb. It could work if applied correctly. Stepping out of bounds wouldn't be abused, one would hope for the benefit of the game. If the offside starts in the midfield it should end somewhere, right?

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Originally posted by sensorium The lines are in the field for many reasons, not just to set the ball boundaries.

In fact, the outlines pretty much are. At least that's how I see it. Also I don't see why the offside area shouldn't be virtually ensless on one side.

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Originally posted by sensorium You said it: "he wasn't able to get back into play." He wasn't in play. It's just how I see it.

So wouldn't it be a better idea to just not count any players on the ground, regardless of them being inside or outside of the field? I still don't have an answer to why it should make a difference where exactly a player falls down. Inside or outside the field. That's solely a matter of chance and that, imo, would be unfair. In addition ofcourse to how tempting it would be to step outside on purpose, especially with one of the two last players being very close to the endline about 99% of the time

What's fair and what's not is highly subjective ofcourse so this will be an endless discussion. I think the rule is fine the way it is and I think I've made my point explaining why. We're simply not gonna agree on this, so I'll leave it at that

The rule is fine. It prevents players from stepping past the goal line willingly in order to put an opponent in an offside position. Simple as that.

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Originally posted by The_G0dfather The rule is fine. It prevents players from stepping past the goal line willingly in order to put an opponent in an offside position. Simple as that.

damn..... you got it into one sentence... well done!

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Originally posted by The_G0dfather The rule is fine. It prevents players from stepping past the goal line willingly in order to put an opponent in an offside position. Simple as that.

That's why the rule should ONLY apply to people who willingly put themselves out of the pitch in the middle of an attacking play, and not to people who fall outside of the pitch. Think of it this way: if a player falls injured just inside the pitch, the referee will stop the game. But if a player falls injured outside of the field, the referee will always keep the game moving - I've seen players being assisted this way without asking the referee because they're already outside of the field, an example was Wilhelmsson yesterday in Sweden's game. So how could a player like this count for the offside rule?

UEFA came out to support the referee's decision, but there's still a lot of people who aren't convinced.. both Scolari and Ricardo Carvalho in Portugal's press conference for example, also the german coach Joachim Low, and pretty much every commentator I've heard on TV.

This isn't really about the Netherlands game anymore... they deserved to win, no doubt. It's about the precedent it sets for future games.

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Originally posted by noikeee and pretty much every commentator I've heard on TV.

The Italians had it right straight away, for one And so did the Germans.

Referees will only stop the game if a player is very badly injured. How often does it happen that the players have to kick the ball out to allow medical treatment.

Theoretically, players can get medical treatment all the time, the meds just aren't allowed to enter the field. So until the game has been interrupted by the ref, for a foul or smth, everyone is in play. Including injured players.

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Originally posted by eieregooie Referees will only stop the game if a player is very badly injured. How often does it happen that the players have to kick the ball out to allow medical treatment.

No, referees will stop the game if a player has fallen on the pitch and needs treatment, regardless of how serious the injury is. The referee can't just guess how bad it is. This is one of the reasons why there has been so much debate over players who pretend they're injured to receive fake "treatment" and waste time.

The reason why players have to kick the ball away is because referees often don't see the injured player right away - because ultimately it is the job of the referee to stop the game, and not the players'. In Portugal this season, FC Porto decided to tell their players to stop putting the ball away and let the referee do his job, generating some controversy as people aren't used to this.

Don't tell me Panucci was pretending to be injured - he got knocked out of the field by a collision with the keeper, it must've hurt although obviously it wasn't serious. The reason why he took so long to get up is because he wanted to wait until the play was over otherwise he'd put his defence in a really shitty situation - it has always been an acceptable practice for many years to do this: to remain outside the field, but it has always been a punishable offence to walk away off the field just to put someone else offside.

Another argument for this old interpretation of the rules is the following: imagine yourself in the place of any player involved in the play. Your field of view is naturally limited to the boundaries of the pitch, there are already plenty of players you have to worry about. Now imagine you have to start looking for players beyond the lines, behind the goal, fallen amongst the publicity boards and the photographers, etc...

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Originally posted by noikeee That's why the rule should ONLY apply to people who willingly put themselves out of the pitch in the middle of an attacking play, and not to people who fall outside of the pitch.

You know footballers are a bunch of cheaters and liars on the pitch so if UEFA were to change the rule, they would immediately take advantage of it and fake injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by noikeee Think of it this way: if a player falls injured just inside the pitch, the referee will stop the game. But if a player falls injured outside of the field, the referee will always keep the game moving - I've seen players being assisted this way without asking the referee because they're already outside of the field, an example was Wilhelmsson yesterday in Sweden's game. So how could a player like this count for the offside rule?

Correct observation. I had ben thinking the same. They should draw a line as to of which moment he's not part of the game anymore.

Problem is they probably dont even know it themselves.

buffon should've hit panucci closer to the 18 yard box instead of the goal line then

Well what can I say Italy got hammered and Holland fully deserved the win. Donadoni is currently getting crucified purely because of his horrid decision making of the formation, starting players and substitutions.

I totally agree with the media, for starters the formation is an attacking 4-3-3 which I've never ever seen Italy use and is effective for an attacking team which we all know is definately not Italy.

Some of his picks for the starting 11 were so so wrong I saw it coming from a mile away. Ambrosini, Camoranesi, Panucci and Bazargli really pissed me off and they showed they are not capable enough. All I hope for is he changes that formation and selects better players otherwise Donadoni can already order his coffin.

quote:

Originally posted by fcuk � Some of his picks for the starting 11 were so so wrong I saw it coming from a mile away. Ambrosini, Camoranesi, Panucci and Bazargli really pissed me off and they showed they are not capable enough. All I hope for is he changes that formation and selects better players otherwise Donadoni can already order his coffin.

your right about the players mentioned.

Imo ambrosini should never have been taken, he is completely useless - the fact he is getting a start suggests donadoni can't see through his red and black tinted glasses well enough to realise he is fuckin woeful. I thought barzagli would cope fine but I have to say he looked very slow and cumbersome. The only other times I've see him play is with cannavaro next to him and he looked ok then, but that was probably down to cannavaro's influence. Camoranesi is a waste of space as well. When he's good he is very good but the rest of the time he is such a frustrating player to watch, 1 game out of 10 is not enough when your playing tournament football (in fact its never good enough).

We should go back to the 4-4-2, get gattuso and ambrosini out of the side and put in di rossi and perotta or aquilani (players with a bit of pace). I'd also change camoranesi with either di natale, cassano or Quagliarella and stick de piero up front with toni.

At the back its hard to say, I like that gamberini and he may be a better option with materazzi or panucci than barzagli as he's got plenty of pace and looks a strong player. Grosso should obviously start after the impact he made on the game when he came on I thought he was excellent.

I can't see Donadoni make that many changes even though they are most definately required. First and foremost get ambrosini out the fuckin starting 11.

Every suggestion that you and the rest of azzurri fans have is exactly right, the only problem is Donadoni and his woeful choices. Italy is known for their simple 4-4-2 and is best at it, why change it as you can tell the players found it difficult and was very ineffective.

Its time for Del Piero to lift his game more, he is now the oldest and most experienced on the pitch and can influence the team just like how he came on in the holland game.

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