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-- Digital mixing vs. competent beat matching
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quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Not sure...but don't you play completely different music than me?

yeah, probably! nobody plays uplifting trance anymore

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis And its not perfect in key mixing vs. clashing on every mix, what I'm basically saying it, mixing via feeling and the odd key clash is not the end of the world, and in most cases, does not make you any worse a DJ.

oh no, of course not and i wasnt meaning to imply otherwise. just that never paying attention to keys isn't nearly as good as being able to do it 'via feeling' as you say. and that the artists you mentioned looking up to no doubt have an appreciation for when they can break/bend the rules, but don't come out with their awesome mixes by accident (ie i bet they have an instinctive skill for picking compatible tunes/know how to mix clashing melodies effectively).

in my (albeit terribly limited) experience, some styles of EDM just sound awful with prolonged, out of key mixes.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec i bet if you heard one of these deejays clovis mentioned play and they did a 'clashing mix' you wouldn't even notice

well, that's all part of the skill of being awesome then isn't it? and i bet you dont know shit about me so unless you have something interesting or beneficial to add how bout you fuck off?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, that's all part of the skill of being awesome then isn't it? and i bet you dont know shit about me so unless you have something interesting or beneficial to add how bout you fuck off?

easy there boss... i wouldn't hear it either... don't take me the wrong way, that was not meant as an insult, more a compliment to the deejays

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec easy there boss... i wouldn't hear it either... don't take me the wrong way, that was not meant as an insult, more a compliment to the deejays

oops, my bad. i apologise!

Reading this thread makes me feel like this:

Fucks sake, gentlemen.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Reading this thread makes me feel like this: Fucks sake, gentlemen.

Well, it did derail, but I feel the first page gave me the answers I was looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by Az dubfire

Can't argue with that...

Dude, name calling aside, I don't actually even use the tool myself so not really sure why I get stressed about it.

Nem takes a chill pill

Cheers

When I first started getting into the dance music scene what I loved most was the fact that everyone loved only one thing: THE MUSIC.

I switched from CDJ-1000s to Ableton to try something that no one was doing and to be different..but along the way all I have run into are people saying I'm "not a real DJ" or I'm "cheating".

With the way the scene is changing and with new technologies available it seems a little silly to me to stay stuck in the same old setup, year in year out. Since switching to Ableton I have been able to do a lot of things that I could never do on tables and when someone comes up to me at the end of the night jumping around asking "how the hell did you do that?!?!" it makes it all worthwhile.

Let's keep in mind that the only that REALLY matters is how many people are moving on the dance floor and here's some food for thought: Do you think anyone has left a show saying "I really wished he used turntables tonight instead of a computer?"

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Eugene Do you think anyone has left a show saying "I really wished he used turntables tonight instead of a computer?"

yes.

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 yes.

If he was a crap dj on a computer, switching to vinyl will not magically make him more competant.

i have to say


i saw i:cube deejay this weekend, and he played entirely on cdjs.

it was probably set of the year so far for me, and i went to demf.


the man was beat juggling using the cue buttons, using the cdjs like samplers. he was all over his music like a fat kid with warm chocolate chip cookies


i've never been impressed by an ableton deejay live. maybe i haven't seen a good enough ableton deejay, but that's the honest truth.

So for about the 8 millionth time:


Good DJs are good, bad DJs suck.


Medium used, largely irrelevant.

I didn't bother reading most of the replies but I'm sure somebody brought up the point of live performance vs. studio session. By that I mean that decks and a mixer are more appropriate for the former, while a digital setup is prepared for the latter. Personally I like a DJ setup. I think mixing is about what's coming out of the speakers, not necessarily the work that goes into them. Therefore I would have to say, why not go for the easiest way to mix? That will ensure better mixing, no? I think that's what the people on the floor or buying the CD care about, no?

But that quote you cited is true, a DJ set better be damn good if it's made entirely with a DJ setup.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis So for about the 8 millionth time: Good DJs are good, bad DJs suck. Medium used, largely irrelevant.

i think you're mostly right

but there is more dedication involved with playing records than downloading an illegal copy of ableton on your school laptop and playing illegal mp3s


maybe the guy who does that is a sick deejay. more than often i'd say not.

Not only did I buy Ableton Live, every single track I play I have paid for..using MP3s in Ableton doesn't work so well, but I'm sure you already knew that right??

quote:

Originally posted by Gen3r4l1ty If he was a crap dj on a computer, switching to vinyl will not magically make him more competant.

no.

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 no.

So switching WILL make him more competant? I'm

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Chappell ****Breaking News***** The illegal mp3 market is being cornered by Ableton users, not users of CDJ's and other DJ mixing software as previously thought. Additionally, unamed sources have it that this is what obviously makes users of devices like CDJ's and Technics more "sick" and "dedicated." Lastly, this information is "mostly right," but will be contradicted in following sentences. ... More to come.

Point missed.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Point missed.

It was sounded funnier in my head. It was dry sarcasm... pointless nonetheless.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Eugene Not only did I buy Ableton Live, every single track I play I have paid for..using MP3s in Ableton doesn't work so well, but I'm sure you already knew that right??

good for you

that means my post doesn't concern you





it's a lot harder to download a pair of techs


just sayin



ableton automatically converts all your mp3s to wav as well, but i'm sure you already knew that too

For me one of the major points that I have always found to be a let down in Ableton is the fact that I actually like to beat match. I like to work with the existing structure of the music and put my own touch on it that way rather than actually have the ability to throw in ready warped loops etc I prefer to loop on the fly and have a much more tactile/interactive experience (as I see it).
The sole reason for this is that I think it is fun!

Is an Ableton DJ a real DJ? That all depends on what your perception of a DJ is in the first place. There is still a large amount of people who do not see laptop DJs as the real deal.

If you think back to the days when Sasha or Digweed were using vinyl and you heard a seamless set with excellent flow and some great music with it. People, even non DJs were really excited about the fact that they were going to see someone that had great talent as well as have a good night out.

A lot of clubbers are either of the perception that there is less talent involved with a laptop, if that is true or not is beside the point and could be argued back and fourth.

If this point is important or not I guess is also open to discussion, but if you take a person who has only ever been a laptop DJ and ask him to do what I do, the bottom line is that he/she couldn�t without a lot of practice. I could however do what they do pretty easily with much less practice.
The big question that all these threads boil down to is� Is this actually important to those people who go to clubs?

A lot of it also boils down to your relationship with music, when you go clubbing is it background music to your social life or are you really into it and want to get rocked? For the background clubbers I�m sure the format doesn�t matter, but the more dedicated clubbers at least in the UK, still seem to frown upon laptop DJs.

I recently heard a group of girls complain about a DJ using a laptop, so it�s definitely important to a lot of people, and people are more switched on that we give those pilled up, gurn monsters credit for.
The question is, should it be important?

As Clovis stated though, a bad DJ is still a bad DJ regardless of medium, but is a good DJ using a laptop as good as seeing a hard working DJ on CDs or Vinly with skills? Are the two comparable, as they are not actually doing the same thing, other than the end result might sound the same?

Something I have noticed and this may just be down to the laptop DJs I have seen, but the connection between them and the dancefloor always seems much weaker than with the more conventional DJs. The guys who are confident with their DJ skills have a completely different aura about them in a lot of cases that I personally have never witnessed from a guy using a laptop. This could of course be just the way I perceived it.

Just some ramblings

Nem

i'll say it again too.


it takes months and months to build a vinyl collection and get good enough to play records out.

i learned ableton in one night for a gig i had to play (the first time i ever used it for deejaying incidentally) for a department of music event at my university.

when you have to make careful purchases and go into record stores and talk to clerks, and talk to deejays, and decide if the whole record is worth it enough if you only like one track on it, etc, you find that your music selection skill gets a lot better and more particular very quickly (unless you just have a ton of disposable income).

When you have to leave records behind before a gig you go through a critical thinking process that helps to determine how you want your set to sound and what you want to do to the crowd.


in ableton, a deejay can just get a load of mp3s very quickly, on impulse purchases, or based on online banner ads, or at the worst, from soulseek or something, load up ableton without ever touching a vinyl record in his life, without wearing headphones, and lay down a set that might sound very accomplished.

This does not make him a skilled deejay, this makes him an instant 'professional'. People who can't deejay suddenly can make sets just like Sasha and Digweed! They can make all kinds of little mixtapes for their friends and copy the kiss fm playlists and beatport charts and sound just like pros.

But the same way that having a copy of adobe illustrator on your computer does not make you a graphic designer, unless you have a lot of creativity and passion, it's going to just reek of the software.


I certainly think that there are good ableton deejays out there. However, and this is just a guess - I'll bet that there is a lot more talent and passion in the group of vinyl deejays than ableton deejays, for the reasons above. I think in general people who play records just take it more seriously, and it shows. To me, playing records says something like. "I respect the tradition of deejaying. I respect electronic music. I am not just providing the soundtrack for another disposable night, I am not just trying to make an easy buck. I care about what I do, I sacrifice because I love it."


In my time deejaying, which isn't as long as some of you, I've never had people come up and ask me if they can mix with ableton during my set. On the other hand, every time I play records or even cds, several people always ask what I am doing and if they can touch the records, etc.

I guess in a more intimate setting it matters more than a superclub.

How did you get all your songs warped and ready for ableton in a day?? I'm been looking for ways to get around the warping, so if you've found a better way please let me know!!

If someone is using Ableton to just jump from track to track it seems like a waste..just use decks. However I like adding in a MIDI keyboard to add more of a "performance" aspect then just mixing and I'm always practicing at home to add new stuff to my sets when I'm playing live.

I'm in agreement with most everyone else; a good DJ is a good DJ is a good DJ, the medium is meaningless.

If you do an ableton search on here you'll see we've discussed quick warping methods a few times in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec i learned ableton in one night...

I'm assuming you mean the most basic of functions. Thoroughly learning Ableton isn't as easy as you make it out to be. On the other hand, there really isn't a lot to "learn" about decks. One buttom starts, one changes the rpm, one slider changes pitch. I learned that in one night... Ableton I did not. Not to demean decks, they are my preference, but they ain't that hard to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec When you have to leave records behind before a gig you go through a critical thinking process that helps to determine how you want your set to sound and what you want to do to the crowd.

I don't entirely disagree, but extensive libraries allow you to adapt to a crowd... it lets you grab that record you may have left behind. More extensive libraries offer the flexibility that a well thought out plan can't... and that's to change if necessary. And that is a whole new skill in and of itself.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec in ableton, a deejay can just get a load of mp3s very quickly, on impulse purchases, or based on online banner ads, or at the worst, from soulseek or something, load up ableton without ever touching a vinyl record in his life, without wearing headphones, and lay down a set that might sound very accomplished.

I presume we are talking about only vinyl vs. Ableton at this point, because I've seen far too many CDJ users making the same poor choices... it isn't limited to Ableton.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec This does not make him a skilled deejay, this makes him an instant 'professional'. People who can't deejay suddenly can make sets just like Sasha and Digweed! They can make all kinds of little mixtapes for their friends and copy the kiss fm playlists and beatport charts and sound just like pros.

I think the premise that vinyl is a whole lot harder to become a good DJ is overstated here. Mixing two records and sending an RCA to your computer isn't really ALL that difficult either. And if it does allow you to focus more on track selection than beat matching, I don't see a problem with that.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I certainly think that there are good ableton deejays out there. However, and this is just a guess - I'll bet that there is a lot more talent and passion in the group of vinyl deejays than ableton deejays, for the reasons above.

Eh... I've seen far too many shitty "Dj in a box" rock stars to support that. Ableton users may respond that working digitally allows them the flexibility to adapt music theory, original media, etc. There are two sides to this coin.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec To me, playing records says something like. "I respect the tradition of deejaying. I respect electronic music. I am not just providing the soundtrack for another disposable night, I am not just trying to make an easy buck. I care about what I do, I sacrifice because I love it."

Come on... seriously? Using vinyl is more respectful to EDM adn DJ'ing. That's a stretch.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec In my time deejaying, which isn't as long as some of you, I've never had people come up and ask me if they can mix with ableton during my set. On the other hand, every time I play records or even cds, several people always ask what I am doing and if they can touch the records, etc.

Maybe vinyl is just easier? I'm kidding, but there is a learning curve to Ableton... that MAY account for it... may not.

It sounds like I'm arguing... I'm really not. I agree with your post awhile back that talent is talent, period. I personally enjoy vinyl for DJ'ing. I love Ableton for production. I tried Ableton and got annoyed with the lack of physical control of a record. Plus I'm a sucker vinyl quality of sound. I just think the shots taken at Ableton users can be far stretched and a bit demeaning of the amount of dedication it requires to warp a library, master effects chains, customize midi functions, etc. That's all.

As it has been said... a good DJ is a good DJ.

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