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-- This is why unions are gay aka at least there will be no bailout.
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Originally posted by Stasis Whoa, what's with all the anti-union nonsense? Anyone who thinks autoworkers in the big 3 are overpaid compared to their non-unionized counterparts in Honda/Toyota/Nissan factories is just ill-informed: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/b...onhardt.html?em Secondly, how can you be so short-sighted? Unions have outlived their utility?? I can't believe what I'm hearing. Look dudes, we don't have to hypothesize about what a union-free market looks like. We literally lived through one in the late 1800s and early 1900s. You get robber barons, company towns and the inevitable race for the bottom of the pay scale. That sort of unrestrained capitalism was as much as failure as socialism.

did you happen to notice the little graph on the left hand side of the page your link brings up? the one that shows the total worker pay of US vs Japanese automakers? the one that shows the US automakers pay $16 an hour in legacy costs vs. $3 an hour for the Japanese. Thats the UAW for you right there!

and like I said before, the labor market in 2008 != to the labor market in the late 1800s

1. Yes, of course I read the article.

2. The additional cost of Big-3 labor is overwhelmingly due to legacy costs (which was the point of the article and thus my point, ugh, but whatever, I'm getting the impression you guys looked at the numbers in the first few paragraphs, saw that one was bigger and were like, "Case closed!", but I'm getting off track). Anyway, the legacy costs just a function of GM, Chrysler and Ford existing for decades longer that any of the foreign factories. Now, if you have problems with pensions generally, or think that we should have universal health care or whatever else to eliminate that sort of variable in the big-3's labor costs, then that's just fine, but for now, it is what it is.

The article flat out rejects the notion that the actual workers at the big-3 earn significantly more than a worker at a foreign factory.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX did you happen to notice the little graph on the left hand side of the page your link brings up? the one that shows the total worker pay of US vs Japanese automakers? the one that shows the US automakers pay $16 an hour in legacy costs vs. $3 an hour for the Japanese. Thats the UAW for you right there! and like I said before, the labor market in 2008 != to the labor market in the late 1800s

I said something like this in my post. The costs that Ford has over the Japs is $22/hr per person more. When they have a work force of something like 100k between the US and Canada, it is US$2.2m per person per hour worked.

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Originally posted by Stasis 1. Yes, of course I read the article. 2. The additional cost of Big-3 labor is overwhelmingly due to legacy costs (which was the point of the article and thus my point, ugh, but whatever, I'm getting the impression you guys looked at the numbers in the first few paragraphs, saw that one was bigger and were like, "Case closed!", but I'm getting off track). Anyway, the legacy costs just a function of GM, Chrysler and Ford existing for decades longer that any of the foreign factories. Now, if you have problems with pensions generally, or think that we should have universal health care or whatever else to eliminate that sort of variable in the big-3's labor costs, then that's just fine, but for now, it is what it is. The article flat out rejects the notion that the actual workers at the big-3 earn significantly more than a worker at a foreign factory.

In the long run they do make more! Between pension, health benefits, amount worked, etc, they are making a lot more!

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Originally posted by Stasis 1. Yes, of course I read the article. 2. The additional cost of Big-3 labor is overwhelmingly due to legacy costs (which was the point of the article and thus my point, ugh, but whatever, I'm getting the impression you guys looked at the numbers in the first few paragraphs, saw that one was bigger and were like, "Case closed!", but I'm getting off track). Anyway, the legacy costs just a function of GM, Chrysler and Ford existing for decades longer that any of the foreign factories. Now, if you have problems with pensions generally, or think that we should have universal health care or whatever else to eliminate that sort of variable in the big-3's labor costs, then that's just fine, but for now, it is what it is. The article flat out rejects the notion that the actual workers at the big-3 earn significantly more than a worker at a foreign factory.

are you sure that you are reading the same article?

ummm re read 10 times and come back

fuck no, i dont see toyota asking for money, fucking dumb ass GM niggas.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The article flat out rejects the notion that the actual workers at the big-3 earn significantly more than a worker at a foreign factory.

how is $22 an hour more not significantly more?

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The article flat out rejects the notion that the actual workers at the big-3 earn significantly more than a worker at a foreign factory.

um, no it doesn't.

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The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word �compensation.� It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That�s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.) The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don�t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so. Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit�s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It�s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda�s or Toyota�s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

$10 an hour for 40 hours = 400
400 a week for 48 weeks = $19,200
$19,200 times 100,000 employees (although GM has 300,000 worldwide employees) = 1.92 billion dollars.

that's pretty significant.

quote:

Originally posted by bas I thought this thread said "This is why unicorns are gay..."

I read exactly the same thing when I got up this morning and saw this thread I actually just went back a moment ago and checked to see if Jay had edited the title to 'unions'

The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super.

But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super. But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

the $10 an hour more is a product of union coersion. It doesn't take much to mastering the craft of pushing buttons, lightly guiding a machine into place to do the actual work, placing component parts in the correct place for a machine to fabricate, and taking 2 hour lunch breaks. I think the $40+ an hour figure for foreign owned operations is still too high. I think those workers indirectly benefit from the union contracts of the UAW workers.

Calling most of these workers 'skilled' labor (as the UAW and many article like to do) is generous. I'm sure some have genuine skills, e.g., welders, machine technicians, and electronics technicians, but that doesn't describe many of the workers who press buttons and inspect finished parts.

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Originally posted by The17sss GM and Toyota sold roughly the same number of vehicles over the last year, but Toyota turned a $1.7 billion profit while GM lost around $9 billion. That doesn't happen by accident. Until these automakers and their unions resolve the structural problems that creates this kind of unprofitability, they are a terrible credit risk and a lousy investment... and neither management nor labor shows much willingness to change for the taxpayer subsidies they now demand. What fags.

It's not wages, it's legacy costs. The problem is that people are dying early enough. The actuaries that designed the pensions didn't plan for people to live 25-40 years after retirement.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel You failed at trying to debunk the wage mystery. Why? The NYT article clearly states that the current cost to Ford for wages is averaging $22/hr per employee higher than the Japanese makes. That is HUGE. When you have a work force of 100,000, that is 2.2 million per hour worked each day that they are paying higher than the Japanese. Go and run along now.

I realize that this is the COR, but read the fucking articles posted by people prior to you

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis Whoa, what's with all the anti-union nonsense? Anyone who thinks autoworkers in the big 3 are overpaid compared to their non-unionized counterparts in Honda/Toyota/Nissan factories is just ill-informed: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/b...onhardt.html?em

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse how much money do the Big 3 spend on healthcare compared to foreign car makers building cars within the US in non-union shops? So much of the cost of a GM car is health plan. I agree that it used to be necessary and in most cases, auto and heavy industry was the trend-setter for better employee rights all over the spectrum of the workforce. Now, I think it has bred a lazy attitude of entitlement.

Awfully striking statement coming from someone from countries with a universal health care system.

If Obama puts in better health care as promised, the costs to corporations will make the Big 3 more viable than some of the transplants at current levels.

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

Kinetic Energy aka Gay Robot

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super. But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

the $10 figure isn't accounting for the increaded legacy costs that the big 3 have because of the fat pensions and above industry average benefits the workers have thanks to the UAW. Show me some data that indicates that the big 3's workforce is more experienced/aged than that of the japanese companies operating here in the US. If you bothered to look at the graph on the link you posted you would have noticed that there is very little difference between the non-UAW and the UAW workers when it comes to actual salary. The difference is in cost of benefits and legacy costs, that is where the $22 an hour comes from, thanks to the UAW. No matter what the actual wage is, the big 3 have labor costs that are $22 an hour more than the foreign manufacturers operating in the US have and that is a handicap that they will not be able to overcome.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX the $10 figure isn't accounting for the increaded legacy costs that the big 3 have because of the fat pensions and above industry average benefits the workers have thanks to the UAW. Show me some data that indicates that the big 3's workforce is more experienced/aged than that of the japanese companies operating here in the US. If you bothered to look at the graph on the link you posted you would have noticed that there is very little difference between the non-UAW and the UAW workers when it comes to actual salary. The difference is in cost of benefits and legacy costs, that is where the $22 an hour comes from, thanks to the UAW. No matter what the actual wage is, the big 3 have labor costs that are $22 an hour more than the foreign manufacturers operating in the US have and that is a handicap that they will not be able to overcome.

This was the point of my comment before. When pensions/retirement benefits were guaranteed to your grandparents, they were expected to be dead by now. The fact that medicine has advanced faster than the statistical models adjusted for screwed the unionized companies.

BTW, during the UAW's president's press conference on CNBC this morning, he pointed out that in 2007, Toyota was bragging about paying more then the Big 3 in salaries.

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce

lol that's fucking ridiculous!!! so in time, the plant worker might make partner!!!

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy BTW, during the UAW's president's press conference on CNBC this morning, he pointed out that in 2007, Toyota was bragging about paying more then the Big 3 in salaries.

someone should have pointed out to that idiot that the reason Toyota could actually afford to pay a higher wage than the big 3 is they are paying $13 an hour per worker less in legacy costs. And then remind him that the difference in legacy costs is directly the fault of his organization

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX someone should have pointed out to that idiot that the reason Toyota could actually afford to pay a higher wage than the big 3 is they are paying $13 an hour per worker less in legacy costs. And then remind him that the difference in legacy costs is directly the fault of his organization

Yeah, god forbid people retire

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Awfully striking statement coming from someone from countries with a universal health care system. If Obama puts in better health care as promised, the costs to corporations will make the Big 3 more viable than some of the transplants at current levels.

True, but even in Canada prescription drugs are not free for everyone. Simple doctors visits are covered, and most emergency care. But stuff like prescriptions, travel coverage, prescription glasses, dentist visits are not.

As always, Zakaria has the answers. There is a healthy auto industry in the US, but Detroit is not in that category. The bailout needs to push them into that category. Unfortunately it won't.

The problme with no bail out is the number of unemployed in this economy (See last paragraph), we should try to avoid that for a lil while. In the meantime, Ima start designing cars cause I see an opening in a nice large market!



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/ameri...ia.autobailout/


Zakaria: There is a U.S. auto industry that works

quote:

NEW YORK (CNN) -- The future of the U.S. auto industry was in doubt Friday after a proposal for $14 billion in federal loans died in a late-night Senate vote. The Senate voted 52-35 to bring the measure up for a vote -- short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. The failure followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise that all parties, including the auto companies and the United Auto Workers union, could accept. The dramatic late-night developments could doom General Motors to bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler LLC potentially following close behind. While Ford Motor has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants, such as Toyota Motor and Honda Motor. CNN spoke to world affairs expert and author Fareed Zakaria about a potential bailout. CNN: Is a bailout of the U.S. automotive industry necessary? Zakaria: There are really two different U.S. auto industries. And only one part of it would have qualified for the bailout that was just rejected by the U.S. Senate -- the inefficient part that is headquartered in Detroit. There is another auto industry in the United States and it is healthy. While it is obviously going through tough times because of the economic crisis, it has not gone begging to Washington for taxpayer help. CNN: But aren't the Big Three the drivers of the American auto industry? (No pun intended.) Zakaria: Actually there are 12 international car companies that have manufacturing operations in the United States. Collectively, they employ 113,000 Americans directly -- even though that is less than the 239,000 at Ford, GM and Chrysler. However, those international car companies sell more cars than the Big Three and their customers love their products. They have millions of American shareholders. They do sophisticated work like research, design and marketing in the United States. All in all, they add jobs and high value to the United States. CNN: So what are they doing better than the U.S. car companies? Zakaria: It is simple -- better management. Yes, Detroit has problems because of its legacy costs, the cost of paying health care and pensions to its retirees. But many other Americans firms in other industries have had to change their benefit systems or die. Detroit always managed to avoid making the change in part because of government assistance. But companies like Toyota, Honda, and BMW are not just skilled at cutting costs -- they make better cars. They have more flexible factories and production systems, and understand what American consumers want. For example, Toyota and Honda are years ahead of American carmakers in designing and producing hybrid cars, and as consumer demand moves in that direction, they will reap the rewards. Al Gore remarked on the problem on our show a few weeks back. "It's really tragic that General Motors, for example, allowed Toyota to get a seven-year head start on the hybrid drive train in the Prius that is now positioned to really be a dominant feature of the industry in this century." CNN: But aren't the Big Three saying they will restructure to compete with their foreign competitors? Zakaria: Yes, as in the past, now that the heat is on, Detroit has been promising to change its ways -- as long as it gets cash. But many people are skeptical and think of it as just a jobs program. CNN: So you are against the bailout? Zakaria: No. But the reasons the CEOs of Ford, GM and Chrysler present -- that they will restructure, they are still competitive, they will change -- are bogus; they won't. The best argument for the bailout is that it is the most cost-effective jobs program that the government can run in the short term. Spending on infrastructure to create jobs will take months, maybe years. However, keeping the Big Three afloat will keep hundreds of thousands of jobs in place quickly and easily. It's true the companies will eventually go bankrupt, but by then hopefully the economy can withstand it.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX If you bothered to look at the graph on the link you posted you would have noticed that there is very little difference between the non-UAW and the UAW workers when it comes to actual salary.

Do you read my posts? That was my whole point from the start!!

this thread makes me lol

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