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-- what it takes to produce... do i have the hard part down already?
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quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir So calling it complex or "above our heads" is laughable in the least. He isn't some high and mighty guy, we was just another musical composer, people like him so much because he is from 200 years ago, and they don't understand music and they hear his stuff, and think its the epitome of music..that's about it.

he wasn't just "a" composer. He is still one of the most influential composers of all time. And I am almost certain it is at least above your head.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cronodevir
If you know so much about sound engineering then why not be of some help and get a job at mastering. If current tracks sound so bad to you, you can atleast make them sound somewhat better with your divine skills./QUOTE]'t

He doesn't know anything about engineering, anyone who heard his free cd knows this.

Also, Mozart wasn't that complex, he was all about breaking the rules and not having to be complex to be good. Bach was more complex but his priorities were in complexity and not the emotional impact of the melodies, and he thought there were rules to music. Those were his downfalls.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja Also, mozart wasn't that complex, he was all about breaking the rules and not having to be complex to be good. Bach was complex.

I think you have the wrong composer.

"Complex" does not mean "unemotional." Fuck, is Beethoven's Ninth "unemotional" to you?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles "Complex" does not mean "unemotional." Fuck, is Beethoven's Ninth "unemotional" to you?

No, I don't mean to imply that. Beethoven is very emotional.. Not that that song is THAT complex anyway is it? Moonlight Sonata also.. simple yet awesome. Bach probably would of sneered at it and stuck his nose in the air.. Maybe not. That's what I've heard anyway.

Bach is more complex in some ways because of his use of counterpoint. But Beethoven and later composers wrote a lot more instrumental lines within a single piece.

Have you heard the third movement of the Moonlight Sonata? Not all that simple...

Maybe this will help the debate...

Both sides really should start defining "complex" here, because you guys are debating ideas while using a word that is very subjective to music. Is complexity a universally known quantity or quality? Is complexity what you hear or the ideas and energy that the creator of the music incorporated into the music?

For one, and I've already mentioned this, I can find complexity in minimal techno in deep house and i'll throw in hip hop. The parameters for making music are vast, so what makes music complex to you guys? Do you guys all see complexity the same? I'm guessing no one here sees complexity the same.

I don't know about sound engineering? Says the people who have to use synths with thousands of presets because they can't program a synth themselves.

Music is not complex. Difficulty is itself a product of your own view of yourself and your ability. As is quality. Remember back in the day, when most of you knew shit about music? Everything sounded good, and when you made your first songs, you likely enjoyed them, and making them more than you do now... Why do you not enjoy it so much now or why doesn't it have that spark it had when you first started? Because you have matured enough to realize that what you did then wasn't all that good. If you look at something and think "its above me" or you can't match it, then that is the truth. You won't be able to.

If you look up to mediocrity, than you are defining your end-goal at mediocrity.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Music is not complex.

Then why do you suck so much at it?

I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I don't.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have gotten you confused with someone else... you know who I mean, the tard who keeps ranting about how high latency is better than low latency, how PDC and multicore support are totally unnecessary, how Cubase and Ableton and Reason are vastly inferior products to Fruityloops, how melody and harmony are actually the same thing, how you don't really need a chord progression, and how Linux is going to put Microsoft out of business within the next few years.

Who's that guy again? I can't seem to remember...

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I don't know about sound engineering? Says the people who have to use synths with thousands of presets because they can't program a synth themselves. Music is not complex. Difficulty is itself a product of your own view of yourself and your ability. As is quality. Remember back in the day, when most of you knew shit about music? Everything sounded good, and when you made your first songs, you likely enjoyed them, and making them more than you do now... Why do you not enjoy it so much now or why doesn't it have that spark it had when you first started? Because you have matured enough to realize that what you did then wasn't all that good. If you look at something and think "its above me" or you can't match it, then that is the truth. You won't be able to. If you look up to mediocrity, than you are defining your end-goal at mediocrity.

So, where are those groundbreaking sounds you have made? Let's hear one track you made.
Music is not complex? Music can be simple or complex. It just depends on your drive, inspiration, and how far you are willing to push yourself if you want to get complex.
Difficulty is not a product of your own view of yourself and your ability. What you described is called low self esteem. Many times you need difficulty to challenge yourself, and the end product when you do achieve your goal is rewarding. That's why not everyone gets gold medal in the olympics or the FIFA world cup. These people know it is difficult but they have committed themselves to break that barrier. That's why it's their career and they train themselves almost daily. If it was so easy, they would be watching TV all year along and pigging out at fast food restaurants and then goin to the match, when its game on!
Back in the day, when I didn't know shit about music, whatever sounded good is whatever still sounds good to me. That hasn't changed with my knowledge of music now. It just made me appreciate it more.

If you look at something and think "its above me" or you can't match it, then that is the truth? You won't be able to? <--Are you for real?

Why do you think people have role models who have something or some skill that the follower doesn't posesss yet? It is to look 'up' to that person or something, so that you can challenge yourself to achieve it.
So you're telling me you would rather compare yourself to a 5 year old kid, who may be lower than you and not someone wiser & perhaps older? No wonder you talk so much crap. This is exactly your mentality & it becomes more evident with more and more posts.

quote:

Originally posted by SGL So, where are those groundbreaking sounds you have made? Let's hear one track you made. Music is not complex? Music can be simple or complex. It just depends on your drive, inspiration, and how far you are willing to push yourself if you want to get complex. Difficulty is not a product of your own view of yourself and your ability. What you described is called low self esteem. Many times you need difficulty to challenge yourself, and the end product when you do achieve your goal is rewarding. That's why not everyone gets gold medal in the olympics or the FIFA world cup. These people know it is difficult but they have committed themselves to break that barrier. That's why it's their career and they train themselves almost daily. If it was so easy, they would be watching TV all year along and pigging out at fast food restaurants and then goin to the match, when its game on! Back in the day, when I didn't know shit about music, whatever sounded good is whatever still sounds good to me. That hasn't changed with my knowledge of music now. It just made me appreciate it more. If you look at something and think "its above me" or you can't match it, then that is the truth? You won't be able to? <--Are you for real? Why do you think people have role models who have something or some skill that the follower doesn't posesss yet? It is to look 'up' to that person or something, so that you can challenge yourself to achieve it. So you're telling me you would rather compare yourself to a 5 year old kid, who may be lower than you and not someone wiser & perhaps older? No wonder you talk so much crap. This is exactly your mentality & it becomes more evident with more and more posts.

You're an idiot. Die please.

What he said about settling for mediocrity is correct. If you don't think you can make a song sound as good as your idol, you won't. If you do believe thats feasible, and challenge yourself to get to that point; putting in tons of blood sweat and tears into a project, there are absolutely no limitations and infinite possibilities. This is why trance sucks. A bunch of idiots like yourself don't think the bar can continue to be raised.

The proper way for this genre to prosper is for a new breed of producer/dj, based on doing it out of their love for the music and pushing each other further and further in composition. If you have to look up to Tiesto chart topping everything, and ghost writers here and engineers there, why would you do any different?

It comes down to pioneering a genre and taking it to places it hasn't been before. A new style or sound will always have appeal to the masses because it's not outplayed, overused, or mundane. Eventually it WILL become that of the styles and sounds before it, and something new will pop up. It's been proven historically time and time again.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 You're an idiot. Die please. What he said about settling for mediocrity is correct. If you don't think you can make a song sound as good as your idol, you won't. If you do believe thats feasible, and challenge yourself to get to that point; putting in tons of blood sweat and tears into a project, there are absolutely no limitations and infinite possibilities. This is why trance sucks. A bunch of idiots like yourself don't think the bar can continue to be raised. The proper way for this genre to prosper is for a new breed of producer/dj, based on doing it out of their love for the music and pushing each other further and further in composition. If you have to look up to Tiesto chart topping everything, and ghost writers here and engineers there, why would you do any different? It comes down to pioneering a genre and taking it to places it hasn't been before. A new style or sound will always have appeal to the masses because it's not outplayed, overused, or mundane. Eventually it WILL become that of the styles and sounds before it, and something new will pop up. It's been proven historically time and time again.

If you look at my comment again, you'll notice I didn't make a statement about mediocrity. So learn to F***ing read.
First of all, I don't make trance. So I don't exist in that deparment you're referring to.
Also, stop putting words in my mouth. My whole argument was to raise the bar and challenge yourself. You're just putting what i said in differnt words.
The way your 'trance' will prosper is not by breeding a new generation of djs/producers. Oh please! We already have too many of those nowdays. What matters is talent and for labels to pick out those talents and sign them instead of the mediocre stuff.
I don't look upto Tiesto. And even if i did, what's wrong with Tiesto? Are you jealous of him?

And about your last paragraph about how we have alot of outplayed, overused stuff.....well, that's why the term 'underground' exists, NO?

You're just another tard like that other guy. Maybe you guys should become best friends. Or maybe you already are...haha.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 You're an idiot. Die please. What he said about settling for mediocrity is correct. If you don't think you can make a song sound as good as your idol, you won't. If you do believe thats feasible, and challenge yourself to get to that point; putting in tons of blood sweat and tears into a project, there are absolutely no limitations and infinite possibilities. This is why trance sucks. A bunch of idiots like yourself don't think the bar can continue to be raised. The proper way for this genre to prosper is for a new breed of producer/dj, based on doing it out of their love for the music and pushing each other further and further in composition. If you have to look up to Tiesto chart topping everything, and ghost writers here and engineers there, why would you do any different? It comes down to pioneering a genre and taking it to places it hasn't been before. A new style or sound will always have appeal to the masses because it's not outplayed, overused, or mundane. Eventually it WILL become that of the styles and sounds before it, and something new will pop up. It's been proven historically time and time again.

::sigh::

If trance sucks, no one would show up to the clubs, arenas and festivals. Only the smalllll very smallll misguided vocal minority like yourself sees Trance as sucking. You guys are specks in a sea of sand, nothing, meaningless, borderline nonexistent. The fact that anyone tries to coerce others to believe a genre of music sucks shows how little you know about music, about culture, the world outside of your walls.

Your argument is full of error. Take Trance music to new heights? Where do you want to take the most popular and most listened to Electronic Genre? Techno and House right now could'nt hope to go further back in history to bring out the past. Progrsesive House was actually an era where the music was going somewhere, and then people scrapped that and said we want to go back to Minimal, Detroit Techno, Dub Techno, Cosmic Disco. Is anyone complaining? Whenever people stop listening to trance, that is when it will suck, until then, outside your walls, millions of people listen to trance everday and enjoy it. I wont and have'nt heard a consecutive hour of trance in years, but i'm not going to diss the music consistently as some do here on TRANCEADDICT.com of all places.

Only lame people sit there consistently bashing a genre of music. MUSIC, seriously? Its music, an inanimate object, a non threatening object, yet it gets bashed as if it is fucking the people who bash it in the ass. Why so mad? Why so sad? I think PsyTrance is the most mindless piece of garbage out there, the worste form of Trance, yet where is the bashing? Might as well listen to Gabba. But I wouldnt spend more than 3 minutes of my life to tell people I think it is garbage (they should already know it is LOL), because all it is music. MUSIC, something that doesn't hurt you or anyone physically, culturally perhaps if the lyrics motivate people to do certain things, but if you don't listen to it, its not doing anything to you. So why are you fighting shadows? People have their subjective tastes. If you guys want to be Sadists, go bash society ruining, Pop, ROck, and Hip Hop music. There pieces of music that are literally fucking up minds and making your little sisters want to slut around or sip some drank or buy some shitty piece of clothes that was made for pennies on the dollar in China, so why waste time bashing Trance? Go make your voice heard where it can impact society positively.

I can go on, if you want quality music that is well made, why not listen to some House or Techno then? Does the music you listen to have to have SuperSaws and 136-140 BPMs with epic breakdowns? Why try to change a genre that millions are enjoying, when what you could be using your energy to find music you actually like.

If you think she is a hoe, why you turning her into a housewife? Move on to something better, its out there.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Oh, I'm sorry, I must have gotten you confused with someone else... you know who I mean, the tard who keeps ranting about how high latency is better than low latency, how PDC and multicore support are totally unnecessary, how Cubase and Ableton and Reason are vastly inferior products to Fruityloops, how melody and harmony are actually the same thing, how you don't really need a chord progression, and how Linux is going to put Microsoft out of business within the next few years. Who's that guy again? I can't seem to remember...

Hrm, You and everyone else has still brought no evidence that low latency is better for someone who uses no hardware, than high latency. You lost that debate, you failed to provide any counter argument what so ever. So your contention that this is "something he was wrong about" and is some how a proof that "I'm wrong in this discussion because of it" is false.

Mutlicore support is pretty much not relevant to most. Again, something no one has given any evidence for. Steam stats are most gaming PCs, not audio production PCs, so using those provides no basis for this argument.

Ableton is pretty much unanimous in that it gets worse every version. Reason lacks vsti support, ergo is blows. And Cubase does nothing FLStudio 8 can't.

Who said melody and harmony are the same? And yes, melody doesn't have to be based on a specific chord progression.

And yes, Proprietary model will not last.

Now, Diginut, do you want to destroy your own argument again by bringing up more points you lost against me in previous debates?

quote:

Originally posted by SGL So, where are those groundbreaking sounds you have made? Let's hear one track you made. Music is not complex? Music can be simple or complex. It just depends on your drive, inspiration, and how far you are willing to push yourself if you want to get complex. Difficulty is not a product of your own view of yourself and your ability. What you described is called low self esteem. Many times you need difficulty to challenge yourself, and the end product when you do achieve your goal is rewarding. That's why not everyone gets gold medal in the olympics or the FIFA world cup. These people know it is difficult but they have committed themselves to break that barrier. That's why it's their career and they train themselves almost daily. If it was so easy, they would be watching TV all year along and pigging out at fast food restaurants and then goin to the match, when its game on! Back in the day, when I didn't know shit about music, whatever sounded good is whatever still sounds good to me. That hasn't changed with my knowledge of music now. It just made me appreciate it more. If you look at something and think "its above me" or you can't match it, then that is the truth? You won't be able to? <--Are you for real? Why do you think people have role models who have something or some skill that the follower doesn't posesss yet? It is to look 'up' to that person or something, so that you can challenge yourself to achieve it. So you're telling me you would rather compare yourself to a 5 year old kid, who may be lower than you and not someone wiser & perhaps older? No wonder you talk so much crap. This is exactly your mentality & it becomes more evident with more and more posts.

Wow, So I make groundbreaking sounds? My reputation proceeds me!

Anyways, Complexity, Difficulty, Beauty, and many other millions of things are based on the persons opinions and views. When people practice at something, they do so to make it easy. And when they get to that point, they can say "Hey, that isn't hard" and it will be true. But the reality of that thing never changed, the person did. Music isn't hard, its simply hard for people to make it, and its their fault, if they get into the right mindset and do what they need to do, then they won't be limited by themselves. The point is, any difficulty involved is the fault of the person. Perhaps they should have spent more time reading this book, or learning from that teacher.

Personally, I don't have any role models, I never looked at someone else and said "I want to make music like him." My thing has always been "How do I get this feeling mood and sound out of my head and onto paper. but because of my own flaws and my level of ability, turning those sounds and feelings and moods into a song [creativity] is difficult for me. But in the end it is a result of my own actions and person.

Saying that music is difficult, implies that everyone who makes it goes through this difficulty. Some people produce epic tracks and they did it with ease. Generally speaking, those people rarely visit forums and brag about it. So that is why we are usually surrounded by people bitching that its too hard.

I find most people say "this thing is hard" because they themselves are not skilled enough to do this thing, so they try to say that the problem is with the thing they are trying to do, not the way they themselves are trying to do it.

Example: Guy lacks the skill to make trance, instead of realizing he is at fault, he simply says 'trance is at fault because its hard to make.'



----



Kismet, because many people like something, does not mean that thing is of high quality.

Lots of people like 2009 trance, that doesn't automatically make trance in 2009 high quality.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 Take Trance music to new heights? Where do you want to take the most popular and most listened to Electronic Genre?

You mean hip hop? Or maybe house? Both of those are much more popular than trance worldwide. The only place trance is still near the top is in a few European countries.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir And Cubase does nothing FLStudio 8 can't.

Stretch across dualview monitors.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles You mean hip hop? Or maybe house? Both of those are much more popular than trance worldwide. The only place trance is still near the top is in a few European countries.

I didnt know hip hop was electronic music? Is it now? And Trance pulls far larger crowds and is listened to far more than House music. TA MD is no barometer, you should know that. What makes you say House is more popular than Trance? You cant pull 15-30,000 people consistently with House music, but you can with Trance. So that speaks volumes for which is more popular, not to mention the countless people who are still new to electronic music who start with trance listen to it for years before moving onto House or Techno. And I don't know if Hip Hop is Hip Hop anymore, its more like Hip Electronic Hop.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 I didnt know hip hop was electronic music? Is it now?

yes

also, go look at the current listener amounts on di.fm ... says something about popularity.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles You mean hip hop? Or maybe house? Both of those are much more popular than trance worldwide. The only place trance is still near the top is in a few European countries.

I understand, much of what I said has no rebuttal, but if all you can reply to is just one statement, dont bother.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir everything Cubase does, FLStudio 8 can't.

fixed

DnB, Jungle are also electronic music.

Pop [britney spears and stuff] is also electronic music.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 I didnt know hip hop was electronic music? Is it now?

They use the same sequencers and same sort of equipment we do. How is that not electronic?

quote:

And Trance pulls far larger crowds and is listened to far more than House music.

Nope. There is this illusion because you have a few trance DJs that are really, really big and able to pull a massive crowd, so they make the scene look more popular than it actually is. But in reality more people are listening to house. The "superstar DJ" thing in trance is just a leftover from the late '90s when trance temporarily blew up really big.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle fixed

Your right, flstudio 8 can't make its pinao roll as shitty as cubase's

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