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-- Shock jock who supported torture changed by being waterboarded...
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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Getting KSM to link AQ with Iraq is not "valuable information". It's getting the guy to say whatever you want him to say. There's a word for that. Coercion? Not strong enough. TORTURE. Muuuuch better... http://armed-services.senate.gov/Pu...2022%202009.pdf You know who else we tortured to get information about AQ-Iraq connection? Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. All this torturing really helps us doesn't it!?

"All this torture"?? LOL!!! 3 fucking people total in US history have been waterboarded! It was used on 3 people who had information regarding more attacks on the country. Call it coercion, call it torture... call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is the question of "enhanced interrogation" has been answered legally, and it's not that Bush or Cheney believed it to be torture or not. It's not to your liking, so you can't accept it. "Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement. PERIOD.

quote:

Originally posted by yukii Hmm, i don't believe we should act like animals of lower intelligence to 'preserve the state.' I've read the book.

Have you really? If the statement you just made... about people acting like animals of lower intelligence to preserve the state... is what you believe the book speaks about, then you are either lying or you didn't understand the book at all.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Have you really? If the statement you just made... about people acting like animals of lower intelligence to preserve the state... is what you believe the book speaks about, then you are either lying or you didn't understand the book at all.

I wasn't referring to the book- I was referring that to the act of torture, and all the other shit radicals do. I just believe it's the equivalent of acting like animals.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss "Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement.

What makes something a legal position then?

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Originally posted by The17sss It presents legal facts, suppored by statutes and legal precidents... and is written by a former federal prosecuter who's speciality is this subject. If you think that doesn't matter, but your opinion does, then I can't help you.

Those legal opinions were long ago discarded by the Supreme Court. In fact some of those who wrote them might find themselves under investigation.

quote:

But in fact, we DO do it to our own citizens... you obviously didn't read the article at all. That was part of what got Holder so tripped up. In the hearing, it was pointed out to him that [QUOTE]"if the attorney general truly believes �waterboarding is torture,� he must also think we torture our own Navy SEALs and other special-operations personnel when we waterboard them as part of their training.

NO UNITED STATES CITIZEN GETS INVOLUNTARILY WATER BOARDED. None. Zip. Nada.

quote:

So Holder says, �No . . . not in the legal sense... it's a fundamentally different thing because:

Saying 'having no intent to inflict mental/physical damage using techniques like water boarding is not torture' is like me going out and killing someone but telling the cops, it's not murder because I DIDN'T INTEND TO KILL THE GUY!!

quote:

... and this is where he got caught. Because, as the article you didn't read also points out, it's not "different because it's for training purposes.": Dude.. read the article before you start spouting off.

I did read it. Reading it does not mean I will agree with it. I don't care who writes it and why. If it's wrong, it's bloody wrong.

quote:

Nobody is debating that... it's about the charge of SPECIFIC intent vs. GENERAL intent I'm talking about here.

Not intending to do a crime does not mean when a crime is done, the perpetrator gets off. I don't know one legal system where a defendant can simply say, "I didn't mean it."

quote:

If your own Attorney General can't explain how it is torture at a House Judiciary hearing, because of the legal statutes in place, then you can't either. Sorry.

Yea, because the whole debate depends on what one guy says...No...

quote:

Hey, you're the one who started this thread implying that because Mankow changed his opinion on the subject after having it done to him, it somehow strengthens the claim that you so desperately want to be true. Again, you might not like it, but the legal definitions stand.

I posted the thread bc people who advocate torture don't know what the fuck they'r talking about. Mancow being one fine (and funny) example.

quote:

Originally posted by yukii I wasn't referring to the book- I was referring that to the act of torture, and all the other shit radicals do. I just believe it's the equivalent of acting like animals. What makes something a legal position then?

Laws that are written "in the books", so to speak.

I heard 9-11 was an inside job... why didnt they waterboard bush?

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Laws that are written "in the books", so to speak.

Does that include the Geneva Convention?

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss "All this torture"?? LOL!!! 3 fucking people total in US history have been waterboarded! It was used on 3 people who had information regarding more attacks on the country. Call it coercion, call it torture... call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is the question of "enhanced interrogation" has been answered legally, and it's not that Bush or Cheney believed it to be torture or not. It's not to your liking, so you can't accept it. "Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement. PERIOD.

Apparently, you'v forgot about sleep deprivation, repetitive loud noises, stress positions, rapid temperature changes, sexual harassment, physical infliction of pain to the point of death...not to mention whatever the CIA black rendition sites have done. Water boarding isn't the only depraved activity we'v engaged in. Remember Abu Graib? Bagram AFB? GUANTANAMO!?

They were answered legally? That's nonsense. The Supreme Court pwned John Yoo and the corrupt Justice Dept which went down in flames in its own imcompetance..

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I heard 9-11 was an inside job... why didnt they waterboard bush?

go on..

*unzips*

The question that seems to be avoided by most defenders of waterboarding is:

"Well, if the legal definition of 'torture' doesn't yet cover something that is called 'torture' by practically everyone who experiences it, perhaps the definition needs changing?"

I like the idea of sodomizing people with candles...



ps. im drunk.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I like the idea of sodomizing people with candles... ps. im drunk.

go to bed sweet pea.
let us argue in this (pointless) debate & sodomize each other.

I stopped reading for about the last page or so because, quite frankly, you all fucking suck. I know that this following statement is going to be incredibly hypocritical after having said that, but all of the personal attacks and bashing that you guys have done just seem incredibly petty, childish and immature. I especially love how, just like the rest of the country, you're all so set in your "Right vs. Left" ways. Fuck you.

Over the last year I've sat here and heard all of this talk about "bi-partisanship" and people coming together and trying to see eye-to-eye. Yet every single time I read any sort of political news, all I see is "Right vs. Left." I know that it has been reiterated time and again by the guy running this bitch (who is equally to blame), but that gets us nowhere. Not a single Goddamned one of you are willing to compromise on this issue.

If you posted in this thread bashing the "Liberals" and claiming to be Conservative, you've done nothing but spew back the same rhetoric that every other identifying Conservative has done over the last few months. Likewise goes for all of you who identify as Liberals.

The bickering, blame-game, name-calling and downright elementary school attitudes are what is wrong with politics. Each side is so set on trying to deface the other that they're too afraid to sit down and compromise, because that would cause their own side to shun them and make them look just as horrible.

This country is a piece of shit, and you're all playing into it and making it worse.

/rant

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Those legal opinions were long ago discarded by the Supreme Court. In fact some of those who wrote them might find themselves under investigation.

Huh? As of last year, the Pierre precident was upheld in the 3rd Circuit court by a 10-3 vote... and this precident backs up the legality of waterboarding's use, as it's instructed to be used.

quote:

Saying 'having no intent to inflict mental/physical damage using techniques like water boarding is not torture' is like me going out and killing someone but telling the cops, it's not murder because I DIDN'T INTEND TO KILL THE GUY!! Not intending to do a crime does not mean when a crime is done, the perpetrator gets off. I don't know one legal system where a defendant can simply say, "I didn't mean it."

We're talking about interrogators acting within the legal boundaries of how waterboarding was laid out to be performed. They were not committing an illegal act or a crime that is on the books... quite the opposite actually; you are arguing that the rules they legally abided by, backed up by the precident of specific intent, are a crime in your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Apparently, you'v forgot about sleep deprivation, repetitive loud noises, stress positions, rapid temperature changes, sexual harassment, physical infliction of pain to the point of death...not to mention whatever the CIA black rendition sites have done. Water boarding isn't the only depraved activity we'v engaged in. Remember Abu Graib? Bagram AFB? GUANTANAMO!? They were answered legally? That's nonsense. The Supreme Court pwned John Yoo and the corrupt Justice Dept which went down in flames in its own imcompetance..

I'm not going to get into a full blown torture debate with you going all the way back to the Spanish Inquisition. Let's stick to waterboarding, which is what this topic is about.

quote:

Originally posted by idoru I stopped reading for about the last page or so because, quite frankly, you all fucking suck. I know that this following statement is going to be incredibly hypocritical after having said that, but all of the personal attacks and bashing that you guys have done just seem incredibly petty, childish and immature. I especially love how, just like the rest of the country, you're all so set in your "Right vs. Left" ways. Fuck you. Over the last year I've sat here and heard all of this talk about "bi-partisanship" and people coming together and trying to see eye-to-eye. Yet every single time I read any sort of political news, all I see is "Right vs. Left." I know that it has been reiterated time and again by the guy running this bitch (who is equally to blame), but that gets us nowhere. Not a single Goddamned one of you are willing to compromise on this issue. If you posted in this thread bashing the "Liberals" and claiming to be Conservative, you've done nothing but spew back the same rhetoric that every other identifying Conservative has done over the last few months. Likewise goes for all of you who identify as Liberals. The bickering, blame-game, name-calling and downright elementary school attitudes are what is wrong with politics. Each side is so set on trying to deface the other that they're too afraid to sit down and compromise, because that would cause their own side to shun them and make them look just as horrible. This country is a piece of shit, and you're all playing into it and making it worse. /rant

quote:

Originally posted by idoru

Do you actually have an opinion about the legal and moral issues, or are you just going to say "a pox on both your houses" so you don't have to bother arguing anything?

quote:

Originally posted by yukii

That is some pretty funny shit... I must say

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Do you actually have an opinion about the legal and moral issues, or are you just going to say "a pox on both your houses" so you don't have to bother arguing anything?

Simply put, I'm against waterboarding regardless of whether or not it is "torture" or "an enhanced interrogation technique."

I realize that I might not've been on topic, but I'm so sick of seeing that shit everywhere that reading it here finally made me snap. I'll continue to stand by what I posted.

quote:

Originally posted by idoru Simply put, I'm against waterboarding regardless of whether or not it is "torture" or "an enhanced interrogation technique." I realize that I might not've been on topic, but I'm so sick of seeing that shit everywhere that reading it here finally made me snap. I'll continue to stand by what I posted.

I understand the frustration. Your point is well taken.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Huh? As of last year, the Pierre precident was upheld in the 3rd Circuit court by a 10-3 vote... and this precident backs up the legality of waterboarding's use, as it's instructed to be used.

I have no idea what the Pierre precedent is. But I have something better.

We prosecuted this guy for water torture...
http://www.2008electionprocon.org/pdf/asano_case.pdf

Steven G. Bradbury, acting head of the US Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of Legal Counsel, on February 14, 2008 testified:
There has been no determination by the Justice Department that the use of waterboarding, under any circumstances, would be lawful under current law...http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/papercha...rized-under.php

quote:

We're talking about interrogators acting within the legal boundaries of how waterboarding was laid out to be performed. They were not committing an illegal act or a crime that is on the books... quite the opposite actually; you are arguing that the rules they legally obided by, backed up by the precident of specific intent, are a crime in your opinion.

The law in and of itself was ILLEGAL. That's why it is no longer used. The Bybee (torture) memos are defunct. Obama has already said many interrogators will not be prosecuted, and I generally agree with such a decision. But those at the top who authorized the moral degradation of America should face the hand of justice, have their law licenses stripped, and prosecuted for war crimes.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss I understand the frustration. Your point is well taken.

+1 same here.

edit: chyeah!!1 i've been searching for that gif for eons.
i've been wanting to make it my sig but ill just save it safely in my photobucket for opportune moments like these.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss I'm not going to get into a full blown torture debate with you going all the way back to the Spanish Inquisition. Let's stick to waterboarding, which is what this topic is about.

You'r already in a full blown torture debate. Waterboarding is torture and has been viewed as such by an overwhelming number of legal decisions, both international and domestic.

Kevin, you didn't answer my question. You say that waterboarding isn't torture, from a legal standpoint. What about the Geneva Convention? Doesn't that specifically forbid this kind of 'advanced coercion'?

Before I go to bed, I'll just point out that Krypton is a prime example of what I was talking about.

Good night, friends. Stu, I love you and want you inside me.

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