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Just out of curiosity, if you were to appreciate someones contributions to popular music, who would it be?

Music, production, not dancing

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Originally posted by DuBam Just out of curiosity, if you were to appreciate someones contributions to popular music, who would it be? Music, production, not dancing

Like I said, I appreciate The Beatles, Kraftwerk, James Brown. I also appreciate people like Pink Floyd, King Tubby, Grandmaster Flash. Take any one of them out of the equation and modern pop music would be radically different, which you just can't say about Michael Jackson.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Like I said, I appreciate The Beatles, Kraftwerk, James Brown. I also appreciate people like Pink Floyd, King Tubby, Grandmaster Flash. Take any one of them out of the equation and modern pop music would be radically different, which you just can't say about Michael Jackson.

You probably hear this a lot.. Well f***ng put!

I didn't know him personally so I really don't give a shit. Convicted or not, as a parent I cannot bring myself to respect or support anyone suspected of being a pedophile no matter how good their music is or used to be. Celebrities die shit happens...but I don't feel upset for any death unless I knew the person and had some type of relationship or connection with them.

Stolen from Fark, and in partial response to System-J



I don't think you can compare Michael Jackson to The Beatles, since, as George Carlin is saying (I guess), he was an "entertainer" and should be compared to other solo entertainers...Elvis, Sinatra, etc...

well....so the story goes, MJ will be melted into lego peaces, so in turn the children can play with him for once.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You were more interesting when you didn't find it necessary to act like a cock all the time, you know. The only reason I'm pursuing this line of argument is because people are calling him a "god" and vastly over-stating his influence. Ask someone about MJ a week ago and it would have been "He used to be good, but he's completely off the rails now". Now it's "He was a genius, a god, he invented modern dancing, he invented modern music." He didn't even invent the fucking moonwalk!

"Acting like a cock?" I'm not the one acting like a cock in this thread, mate. I've never stated that "he's a genius, or a god" or anything of the likes even though Michael Jackson records were a huge part of my childhood. Fuck, Billie Jean was the first song I ever heard. I liked pretty much everything he made up until HIStory and was pretty much a joke (both musically and personally) ever since. But that doesn't cloud my judgement for the stuff he did before.

You seem to be basing most of your arguments on the fact that you dislike Michael Jackson. Truth is, it's really stupid to deny the influence that his music (written by him, or not) had on popular culture.

The fact that he didn't write half of his songs, or that he didn't produce them is pretty irrelevant to influencing millions of people around the world. There was a time when everybody wanted to be like Michael Jackson; everybody was dressing like him, dancing like him, and singing like him. Who was responsible for that? The guy who invented the Moonwalk? Or was it the guy doing it perfectly on stage and on his videos every single day, making it one of his trademarks?

Who is responsible for making the choreography of Thriller, the most imitated in history? Was it Michael Peters, the guy who choreographed the video (whose name I can bet you did not know until right now, and neither did I)? Or was it Michael Jackson, performing it flawlessly on the Thriller video and on every single concert for millions of watchers?

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Originally posted by RebeL9 On a side note. The masks and effects for the Thriller video were made by this guy in the car:

Yep. Savini is a legend in the field of visual effects makeup. He's responsible for zombies' and other makeups in loads of horror movies over the last 30 years.

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Originally posted by euphoria as a parent I cannot bring myself to respect or support anyone suspected of being a pedophile no matter how good their music is or used to be.

As a parent I wouldn't let my child stay for a night with any superstar, no matter if one was suspected or not.

And that parents first think of money before beating the crap out of that person says enough, but that's my view.

I can seperate what he did as an artist and his 'normal' life, if there was something you could call 'normal'.

He owns a fucking patent, on a hook that protrudes from the underside of the stage, which latches on to a hinge embedded into the bottom of his shoe, that lets him lean unnaturaly far. He invented the smooth criminal lean and they gave him a fucking patent for it, seriously, nobody can sell a shoe that hooks into a stage that allows you to lean really far, without licensing it from MJ, thats friggin crazy.



seriously, who else has a patent on a special shoe that enables some crazy dance move.

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Originally posted by Kinzei "Acting like a cock?" I'm not the one acting like a cock in this thread, mate. I've never stated that "he's a genius, or a god" or anything of the likes even though Tiesto records were a huge part of my childhood. Fuck, Silence was the first song I ever heard. I liked pretty much everything he made up until Nyana and was pretty much a joke (both musically and personally) ever since. But that doesn't cloud my judgement for the stuff he did before. You seem to be basing most of your arguments on the fact that you dislike Tiesto. Truth is, it's really stupid to deny the influence that his music (written by him, or not) had on popular culture. The fact that he didn't write half of his songs, or that he didn't produce them is pretty irrelevant to influencing millions of people around the world. There was a time when everybody wanted to be like Tiesto; everybody was dressing like him, dancing like him, and singing like him. Who was responsible for that? The guy who invented epic trance? Or was it the guy doing it perfectly on stage and on his videos every single day, making it one of his trademarks? Who is responsible for making the breakdown of Silence, the most imitated in history? Was it Armin Van Buuren, the guy who choreographed the video (whose name I can bet you did not know until right now, and neither did I)? Or was it Tiesto, performing it flawlessly on Tiesto In Concert and on every single concert for millions of watchers?

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 He owns a fucking patent, on a hook that protrudes from the underside of the stage, which latches on to a hinge embedded into the bottom of his shoe, that lets him lean unnaturaly far. He invented the smooth criminal lean and they gave him a fucking patent for it, seriously, nobody can sell a shoe that hooks into a stage that allows you to lean really far, without licensing it from MJ, thats friggin crazy. seriously, who else has a patent on a special shoe that enables some crazy dance move.

That's pretty damn cool right there.

As deeply uncomfortable as the last 15-20 years have been, if you weren't around in the 70s or 80s there is no way you can form a concrete judgement on the man as a popular artist. That quote from Rolling Stone about Kenya is proof that his global status was unprecedented.

I would give MJ the benefit of the doubt by saying that, his songs - especially those from the Thriller EP were groundbreaking for a new generation of music listeners - they introduced the 'epic' video, with storyboard and brought film-like qualities to pop videos.

Why do people always play the "he didnt write/produce/direct it" card. Clearly the music industry is crooked to favour the marketed artist over the songwriter/producer. Why become disgruntled about this, when there is not really an effective way to change it? The same people consider that paying respect to his musical achievement is to idolise him as a god.

Not many posts in this thread do any such worshipping, only that people old enough to remember how big this guy was in the 80s, clearly have a better idea of why he meant so much to so many people.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J As far as I'm concerned, his later albums were mostly crap. By the time the 90s rolled around he was talked about more for his weird films, creepy live performances with kids hailing him as some sort of messiah and short-lived celebrity marriages than for crap like The Earth Song. The guy was deeply, deeply flawed, and saying "he was very famous and sold many records" doesn't change that. It's an appeal to popularity, basically.

you'd be alone in that statement. Bad and Dangerous are generally considered great albums. HIStory is pretty good too. A case can be made for Invincible. thats where he started sounding like a follower instead of an innovator.

it doesnt matter what the media portrayed him as. I could give a shit, it's the music that matters.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Like I said, I appreciate The Beatles, Kraftwerk, James Brown. I also appreciate people like Pink Floyd, King Tubby, Grandmaster Flash. Take any one of them out of the equation and modern pop music would be radically different, which you just can't say about Michael Jackson.

that's also a ridiculous statement. pop and especially RnB wouldn't be the same today without him.

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Originally posted by GrimReaper Yep. Savini is a legend in the field of visual effects makeup. He's responsible for zombies' and other makeups in loads of horror movies over the last 30 years.

funny thing is that he also stars in many of the movies which he made the effects for. For instance he plays the leader of the MC gang in Dawn of the dead. In the Dawn of the dead 2004 remake he plays a police guy. He's also in From dusk till dawn just to mention a few.

A true king of effects and also a really nice guy which takes time to talk to his fans. In an interview he said the following:

Savini: "Oh, I go to conventions and stay in touch with the fans. My phone number is listed. People come to my house at 11pm at night, wanting to show me their portfolio. Please, call first though! I'll get a call at four o'clock in the morning from some kid in Australia, who doesn't realize the time difference. But I stay totally open to people. In 1991, I was at a convention in LA and this kid walked up to me. He said, 'Mr Savini, I'm a big fan of yours. I work in this video store on Manhattan Beach and I wonder if you'd mind coming by and signing some of your tapes'. I went, and it was Quentin Tarantino, working in the video store. He probably had the script for Reservoir Dogs in the backroom. But he's hired me three times now. That's why I'm nice to everybody: they might grow up to be Quentin Tarantinos or Robert Rodriguez�"

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 He owns a fucking patent, on a hook that protrudes from the underside of the stage, which latches on to a hinge embedded into the bottom of his shoe, that lets him lean unnaturaly far. He invented the smooth criminal lean and they gave him a fucking patent for it, seriously, nobody can sell a shoe that hooks into a stage that allows you to lean really far, without licensing it from MJ, thats friggin crazy.

apearantly the patent expired in 2005 due to failure to pay the maintanance fee.
source: http://v3.espacenet.com/publication...026&DB=&locale=

Holy shit I am gonna make myself some fucking shoes!

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Originally posted by woscar "Acting like a cock?" I'm not the one acting like a cock in this thread, mate... You seem to be basing most of your arguments on the fact that you dislike Michael Jackson. Truth is, it's really stupid to deny the influence that his music (written by him, or not) had on popular culture.

I'm not talking about this thread. You seem to have made it your manifesto to be abrasive in the past few months.

And I like Michael Jackson. Can You Feel It, Thriller, Billy Jean, Smooth Criminal and Beat It are all pop favourites of mine, to name but a few. I'm actually capable of seperating my biases from historical fact, which a lot of people in this thread aren't.

The fact is that people in this thread have called him a god, have pulled the jealousy card and have said he pioneered modern dancing. All of these claims and more are ludicrous, and I'm making a case in opposition to them. You might not have made any of those claims, but saying "You sound butt hurt, you raped child" is not a constructive response to my arguments and neither is it funny. It's a long streak of dehydrated piss across the wall of this thread, and if you don't have anything to actually say then you can fuck off, because you're neither intimidating nor impressing me with your Internet Hardman Act.

If you've got an argument, make it. Otherwise, save your keyboard from the strokes, lest you need them one day, because your reheated sarcasm is going to waste on me. Jackson is not on the same level as the acts I've described, and if anyone in this thread can muster an argument to the contrary, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, you're being plain old fashioned Fanboys, and if this were a Tiesto thread you'd be cumming in your pants in your enthusiasm to shoot it down.

And Tom Savini is an SFX legend.

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Originally posted by RapidFire that's also a ridiculous statement. pop and especially RnB wouldn't be the same today without him.

I'm sorry mate, but if you think MJ is on the same level of influence and importance as the people I listed, you need a history lesson. MJ was a product of Motown, a graduate of disco and an artisan of 80s pop. But he neither created nor shaped any of these areas. MJ was always a follower, not a leader. He took the pioneering work of others and sold more records than anyone else. Fair play, but the only reason anyone would say he actually innovated these things is because they grew up on MJ and never realised the many people who paved the way for him.

MJ was the expression of an era and for that he deserves credit. Should he dubbed a god, a creator or a genius? No. I'm simply arguing for the sake of historical accuracy in the face of sentimentality.

So your argument is that he's not an innovator? Fair enough, that's your opinion. But don't say things like "I'm simply arguing for the sake of historical accuracy in the face of sentimentality" when artists and producers alike think completely different than you do.

Over the years, I have read countless interviews where guys like James Brown, Prince, Bruce Springsteen, etc. mention Michael as one of the greatest influences the music world has ever seen.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not talking about this thread. You seem to have made it your manifesto to be abrasive in the past few months. And I like Michael Jackson. Can You Feel It, Thriller, Billy Jean, Smooth Criminal and Beat It are all pop favourites of mine, to name but a few. I'm actually capable of seperating my biases from historical fact, which a lot of people in this thread aren't. The fact is that people in this thread have called him a god, have pulled the jealousy card and have said he pioneered modern dancing. All of these claims and more are ludicrous, and I'm making a case in opposition to them. You might not have made any of those claims, but saying "You sound butt hurt, you raped child" is not a constructive response to my arguments and neither is it funny. It's a long streak of dehydrated piss across the wall of this thread, and if you don't have anything to actually say then you can fuck off, because you're neither intimidating nor impressing me with your Internet Hardman Act. If you've got an argument, make it. Otherwise, save your keyboard from the strokes, lest you need them one day, because your reheated sarcasm is going to waste on me. Jackson is not on the same level as the acts I've described, and if anyone in this thread can muster an argument to the contrary, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, you're being plain old fashioned Fanboys, and if this were a Tiesto thread you'd be cumming in your pants in your enthusiasm to shoot it down. And Tom Savini is an SFX legend. I'm sorry mate, but if you think MJ is on the same level of influence and importance as the people I listed, you need a history lesson. MJ was a product of Motown, a graduate of disco and an artisan of 80s pop. But he neither created nor shaped any of these areas. MJ was always a follower, not a leader. He took the pioneering work of others and sold more records than anyone else. Fair play, but the only reason anyone would say he actually innovated these things is because they grew up on MJ and never realised the many people who paved the way for him. MJ was the expression of an era and for that he deserves credit. Should he dubbed a god, a creator or a genius? No. I'm simply arguing for the sake of historical accuracy in the face of sentimentality.

you sound like you're trying to RE-WRITE history. niggas who go against the grain by trying to rewrite a legend's history needs to get a grip. you just want your 15 seconds of fame in this thread to try and sound like a one man army against MJ, thats all you want.

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 seriously, who else has a patent on a special shoe that enables some crazy dance move.

Puts Tiestos shoes to shame

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not talking about this thread. You seem to have made it your manifesto to be abrasive in the past few months. And I like Michael Jackson. Can You Feel It, Thriller, Billy Jean, Smooth Criminal and Beat It are all pop favourites of mine, to name but a few. I'm actually capable of seperating my biases from historical fact, which a lot of people in this thread aren't. The fact is that people in this thread have called him a god, have pulled the jealousy card and have said he pioneered modern dancing. All of these claims and more are ludicrous, and I'm making a case in opposition to them. You might not have made any of those claims, but saying "You sound butt hurt, you raped child" is not a constructive response to my arguments and neither is it funny. It's a long streak of dehydrated piss across the wall of this thread, and if you don't have anything to actually say then you can fuck off, because you're neither intimidating nor impressing me with your Internet Hardman Act. If you've got an argument, make it. Otherwise, save your keyboard from the strokes, lest you need them one day, because your reheated sarcasm is going to waste on me. Jackson is not on the same level as the acts I've described, and if anyone in this thread can muster an argument to the contrary, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, you're being plain old fashioned Fanboys, and if this were a Tiesto thread you'd be cumming in your pants in your enthusiasm to shoot it down. And Tom Savini is an SFX legend.

Fuck dude, you need to relax a bit. Not everything you read on the internet is to be taken seriously. As much as it flatters me that you've paid so close attention to my posts, I'd hate to break it to you that I'm not trying to sound or look like anything other than myself. It's a bit ironic that the one that is actually pulling off the "Internet Hardman Act" is you.

I already made my argument, and yet you chose to ignore it and write an elongated "I'm not taking shit from nobody" manifesto, LOL.

Anyways, back on topic...

You listed The Beatles as artists that have truly influenced music in your eyes. Well, do you really think The Beatles weren't influenced by anyone? Like every single artist/musician/writer/film-maker that has ever lived, The Beatles have borrowed elements from other artists before them. Hell, one of their most famous songs (if not the most famous), "Twist and Shout" is a cover from The Top Notes. It was then covered by The Isley Brothers, which is really the version The Beatles covered. So there you have it, The Beatles borrowed something from R&B, made it better, and sold it better. There's even people today that are old enough to have seen The Beatles in their prime that have no idea that "Twist and Shout" is a cover, even though The Isley Brothers' version was popular on its own. Why? Because of the reasons I just listed. Who left a mark here? The original songwriters, performers, or The Beatles?

The Beatles borrowed from everywhere. From other English bands like The Byrds, to The Beach Boys, to reggae. "Obla Di, Obla Da", rings a bell?

Does this make them any less worthy of the praise they always receive? No.

Is their influence on music suddenly invalid? No.

The Beatles, like Michael Jackson borrowed things from other artists before them. And not only did they did it better, they ended up heavily influencing an entire generation of people, not only musically but culturally in a way that is still present today.

Michael Jackson might owe his existence to Motown and Disco, just like all the Ushers, Justin Timberlakes, and Will Smiths owe their existence to Michael Jackson. Denying it only displays one of two things: ignorance or stubborness.

oh shit this thread is gonna get tasty

ey man people are profiting off his death... so in this situation its win win

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Originally posted by woscar Hell, one of their most famous songs (if not the most famous), "Twist and Shout" is a cover from The Top Notes.

Twist And Shout is not one of the most famous Beatles songs.

Saying "everyone got influenced from somewhere" is missing the point. I'm well aware of that. The point is that The Beatles made something genuinely new out of their influences. They started off writing teen-friendly pop but within a few years they were using their success to experiment heavily.

They redefined what the artist album meant in music, they all but invented the concept album, they kick-started world music by going over to India, they helped pioneer psychedelic pop and they made motherfucking Revolution 9, bringing the idea of sampling and sample collage to public attention years before hip-hop.

Without them, modern rock music as we understand it just wouldn't exist. If you compare the genre before The Beatles to the genre after The Beatles you can see their influence. As I've already said: Michael Jackson just can't make a claim like that.

The difference between MJ's influence and The Beatles' (or Kraftwerk's, etc.) is that MJ just spread ideas through being very popular. The Beatles actually innovated and broke new ground. Your logic essentially says that who actually did something first doesn't matter. Credit should be given for whichever famous person jumps on an existing idea.

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