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-- 16 bit vs. 24 bit AUDIBLE DISCUSSION (NO TECH SPECS)
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I can't believe nobody picked up on the sarcasm?

I love analog sounds, regardless of the numbers, VCO's, or whatever. I don't see what is any different about 24 bit and 16 bit. There is no difference. It's just one of many medium factors in music, that creates audible changes (sometimes more than others), and apparently nobody on this forum can grasp this simple concept and have a discussion regarding the topic and original post.

there is no topic, dont u get it? its like discussing how u feel about 1+2=3

quote:

Originally posted by palm there is no topic, dont u get it? its like discussing how u feel about 1+2=3

So you are saying that everything regarding this topic is factual, non-subjective, and the gospel?

Why is it so hard to try and discern audible differences from 24 bit or 16 bit.

I don't understand what differentiates this from other topics regarding different mediums for dance music.

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley I can't believe nobody picked up on the sarcasm? I love analog sounds, regardless of the numbers, VCO's, or whatever. I don't see what is any different about 24 bit and 16 bit. There is no difference. It's just one of many medium factors in music, that creates audible changes (sometimes more than others), and apparently nobody on this forum can grasp this simple concept and have a discussion regarding the topic and original post.

Your being really confusing now. In your original post you say you can hear a difference between 16 and 24 bit.
Now youre saying there is NO difference, which is it????

Ok here it is. I quickly made a small loop out of some NI Synthetic Drum 24 bit samples. Then exported out of Live 7 with no dither as both 24 bit and 16 bit, then converted to 320kbps mp3 with LAME in Wavelab.

File A is the 16 bit loop. File B is the 24 bit loop. What is File X?


edit: sod this, a 24 bit file will be bigger in size than a 16 bit file regardless of format, also nothing to stop a person downloading files and checking bit rate in an analyser....
so unless someone has a better idea..........

Won't converting to mp3 kinda ruin the test?

quote:

Originally posted by coroknight Won't converting to mp3 kinda ruin the test?

In theory, yes.

Will it?

Let's see.

Add extra space of dead noise on files to alter size differences, and there shouldn't be much (if any) size differences once encoded to mp3

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 Your being really confusing now. In your original post you say you can hear a difference between 16 and 24 bit. Now youre saying there is NO difference, which is it???? Ok here it is. I quickly made a small loop out of some NI Synthetic Drum 24 bit samples. Then exported out of Live 7 with no dither as both 24 bit and 16 bit, then converted to 320kbps mp3 with LAME in Wavelab. File A is the 16 bit loop. File B is the 24 bit loop. What is File X? edit: sod this, a 24 bit file will be bigger in size than a 16 bit file regardless of format, also nothing to stop a person downloading files and checking bit rate in an analyser.... so unless someone has a better idea..........

Did not mean there is no difference between the two bit rates. I meant there is no difference arguing about analog vs. digital than there is 24 vs. 16

When i encode the files to mp3 they go to 16 bit, i dont know how to encode 24bit mp3s or if its even possible

I mean if you make some loops with your own 24 bit samples, render some of them to 16 bit, then import sets of each into your sequencer and play it randomly can you really tell the difference?
I tried it with those loops i made earlier and i really couldnt tell the difference, i would just have to guess which was which

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 When i encode the files to mp3 they go to 16 bit, i dont know how to encode 24bit mp3s or if its even possible I mean if you make some loops with your own 24 bit samples, render some of them to 16 bit, then import sets of each into your sequencer and play it randomly can you really tell the difference? I tried it with those loops i made earlier and i really couldnt tell the difference, i would just have to guess which was which

There we go. Focusing on the audible side of things. As for encoding mp3's at 24bit, the answer is no. As I said in the original post, 99.9% of stuff that is going through peoples ears is 16bits.

The point of the thread is to gather opinions on the use of 24 bit samples vs. 16 bit samples, as well as how they sound when filtered down to mp3.

Because of various production qualities, and the fact that the changes are extremely subtle, you can only really do comparisons using the exact same source (which you did)

You said you couldn't hear the difference when filtered down to mp3. Could you tell the difference when working with them?

Any positive/negative stories involving projects that used a lot of 24 bit samples that were filtered to 16bit and then mp3?

What sort of files do you want to use for this? Do you want a full track with drums and everything? Because most tracks will have at least a few 16 bit elements in them...

I honestly don't like threads like this. It just seems like people try to cut corners at every turn. My philosophy is, adhere to the highest quality you can and stick to it.

If you adhere to high quality then those things will add up and you're tracks will sound better. I don't think top producers debate 16 vs 24 bit because if you can use 24 then why not?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What sort of files do you want to use for this? Do you want a full track with drums and everything? Because most tracks will have at least a few 16 bit elements in them...

I'm really not out to prove anybody right or wrong. The goal of this thread is not to create a dick measuring contest. I wanted peoples opinions on what I discussed in the original post. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to post some samples, go for it, but that's not really the point of the discussion.

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Originally posted by coroknight I honestly don't like threads like this. It just seems like people try to cut corners at every turn. My philosophy is, adhere to the highest quality you can and stick to it. If you adhere to high quality then those things will add up and you're tracks will sound better. I don't think top producers debate 16 vs 24 bit because if you can use 24 then why not?

This has zero to do with cutting corners. I don't even see how this could be a corner cutter. The questions I asked are not rocket science, nor is the topic at hand. I'm baffled at some of the responses this thread has generated.

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Originally posted by DjStephenWiley There we go. Focusing on the audible side of things. As for encoding mp3's at 24bit, the answer is no. As I said in the original post, 99.9% of stuff that is going through peoples ears is 16bits. The point of the thread is to gather opinions on the use of 24 bit samples vs. 16 bit samples, as well as how they sound when filtered down to mp3. Because of various production qualities, and the fact that the changes are extremely subtle, you can only really do comparisons using the exact same source (which you did) You said you couldn't hear the difference when filtered down to mp3. Could you tell the difference when working with them? Any positive/negative stories involving projects that used a lot of 24 bit samples that were filtered to 16bit and then mp3?

No i couldnt tell the difference before i converted them to mp3 either. Ill post some loops up later, all 24 bit samples from NI Synthetic Drums, ill convert some 24 bit directly to mp3, then ill render same loops as 16 bit, then convert them to mp3.

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Originally posted by evo8 The more mixes i do the more i realise that half of the shit thats discussed on the various messageboards isnt really that important when it comes to making a decent track.

'Nuff said

quote:

Originally posted by Blahzaay 'Nuff said

Right. I don't see where anybody made any argument contrary to that though?????

This forum discusses fairly specific topics for a huge array of music related stuff. Think of music as a 1,000 piece puzzle, and the topics we have here and discuss are one piece of that puzzle and you don't know where that piece goes in the puzzle. Unless you've got a solid grasp on everything (you saw the puzzle before it was broken down!) you're likely wasting your time.

The forums can be helpful though. You just have to be disciplined and look at subjective and objective things differently. Not every post on this forum is made so you can be the next Tiesticle.

quote:

Originally posted by DjStephenWiley Tiesticle.

lol

syn drums 16bit
syn drums 24bit
syn drums X

2 syn drums 16bit
2 syn drums 24bit
2 syn drums X

3 syn drums 16bit
3 syn drums 24bit
3 syn drums X

To whom it may concern - identify the original bitdepth of track X in each of the above

edit: bitdepth not bitrate!!!

It's bitdepth, not bitrate.

Bitrate is the ammount of bits processed per X (per second for instance) while bitdepth is the ammount of bits per sample.

again its a worthless thread. what do u think is best when it comes to audio, 50w amps, or 80w amps? no tech specs allowed.

80w have more power and can probably get louder. So Id go with those.

You don't use 24 bits because you can hear the difference. You do it because you want to use an as high a quality as possible. It gives you more room to work with when mastering for one.

There is no way the human ear can hear the difference in volume between a 16 bit wave changing one increment, which is 1/65536 of however many dB are the maximum, and I don't remember that, I'm guessing about 100. There is no way can ever ever ever hear the difference between 10.0001 dB and 10.0002. EVER! There is no perceivable way. So jump down from your high horses and admit you can't hear the difference.

However, it is simple to hear the difference between an MP3 file and a CD-quality wav file. Studies have shown that, with little practice, people (and not even musicians) can hear the difference in a reasonably 'normal' sound system. For one, MP3 handles frequencies above 16,000 hz quite badly, which is why hihats often get sort of muddy, try and see if you can hear it.

Their is no maximum volume. All values are normalized to a number between -1 and 1.

quote:

Originally posted by coroknight Their is no maximum volume. All values are normalized to a number between -1 and 1.

I suspected it was so. The same applies though.

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