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quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Why is it so bad if thats what the people want?

They don't know what they want, they are being told that's what they want, that's the problem.

Choice to decide what you want is what everyone deserves.

Anyone see how Obama went to China and spoke to a select group of students about freedom of speech, yet it was all censored to hell and back to the point where most people in China weren't even aware he was there. I'd hate to live in a country like that where you're told how to act and what to think.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Anyone see how Obama went to China and spoke to a select group of students about freedom of speech, yet it was all censored to hell and back to the point where most people in China weren't even aware he was there. I'd hate to live in a country like that where you're told how to act and what to think.

Every country is like that. China has a group mentality and it works. They are the fastest growing super power in the world and their people are generally happy now. You look at the pro-democracy movement in the late 1980s and the only reason it was such an issue was because of the lack of economic security.

Now China is an economic power house, even while the rest of the world is doing pretty poor their GDP is still growing at an alarming rate and the population, at least a significant chunk of it, is for the first time experiencing something other than abject poverty. The people no longer care about a democracy movement at large public level. There are reformers still, but most people do not care anymore, they are buying cars and western goods and an emerging middle class is enjoying the fruits of their country... So why would anyone want to change that.

Your view of how they live their life is biased based on the values of the society you live in. External change is never effective or good and in the past has almost always led to hardship for the ones exerting the change and the ones receiving the change. If the Chinese people, or the Russian people, or whomever demand change enough they will make it happen.

Granted there are exceptions to this rule, like North Korea, but that is probably the only one.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Anyone see how Obama went to China and spoke to a select group of students about freedom of speech, yet it was all censored to hell and back to the point where most people in China weren't even aware he was there. I'd hate to live in a country like that where you're told how to act and what to think.

Or you could be a modern American NeoCon and actually enjoy being told how to act and think by radio and TV personalities.

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Originally posted by ToF They don't know what they want, they are being told that's what they want, that's the problem. Choice to decide what you want is what everyone deserves.

Also, I do not like this idea about China being told what they want and them blindly following it. China has a far amount of access to Western media. They know that they live in a one party system, they know that other systems exist (obviously).

Money trumps all though. They like being top dog in the world and they aren't about to start fucking that up for themselves.

The same could be said about Russia, but there its for more nationalistic. There was little to the Soviet Union about a world workers revolution, the true spirit of their socialist founding philosophies. You could almost entirely call the Soviet expansionism during the 20th century as a cover for Russian nationalism and the same as Peter the Great and other Russian imperial movements.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Every country is like that. China has a group mentality and it works. They are the fastest growing super power in the world and their people are generally happy now. You look at the pro-democracy movement in the late 1980s and the only reason it was such an issue was because of the lack of economic security. Now China is an economic power house, even while the rest of the world is doing pretty poor their GDP is still growing at an alarming rate and the population, at least a significant chunk of it, is for the first time experiencing something other than abject poverty. The people no longer care about a democracy movement at large public level. There are reformers still, but most people do not care anymore, they are buying cars and western goods and an emerging middle class is enjoying the fruits of their country... So why would anyone want to change that. Your view of how they live their life is biased based on the values of the society you live in. External change is never effective or good and in the past has almost always led to hardship for the ones exerting the change and the ones receiving the change. If the Chinese people, or the Russian people, or whomever demand change enough they will make it happen. Granted there are exceptions to this rule, like North Korea, but that is probably the only one.

Rubbish. That middle class that's enjoying the fruits of labor are a very small minority and the ones that force such censorship. Why? Because it lines their pockets with money and allows them to live that life.

Go ask any Chinese migrant that has spent a decade or more outside of China, what they think of the establishment over there. They all hate it and are glad they got out.

The model that the Chinese run is a travesty to modern civilisation. Hell, you could even see that during the Olympics when the eyes of the world were even more focused on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Rubbish. That middle class that's enjoying the fruits of labor are a very small minority and the ones that force such censorship. Why? Because it lines their pockets with money and allows them to live that life. Go ask any Indian migrant that has spent a decade or more outside of India, what they think of the establishment over there. They all hate it and are glad they got out. The model that the Indians run is a travesty to modern civilisation. Hell, you could even see that during the Olympics when the eyes of the world were even more focused on them.

See what I did there? I just replaced the worlds largest communist state with the worlds largest democracy and got essentially the same thing.

You are blaming the wrong things.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Why is it so bad if thats what the people want? Democracy doesn't always work.

That's what they want because it's all they've ever known. They went from being serfs, to being the proletariat. Besides a decision is only of any real value when its an informed decision. If the government is your only source of information and as a result you support the government it can't be said to be an entirely free choice.

I've lived there.. my whole family had to survive there. I still mix in the community here which shares the same beliefs as those back home (why they don't go join them is beyond me). Trust me I understand their mentality quite well.

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Also, I do not like this idea about China being told what they want and them blindly following it. China has a far amount of access to Western media. They know that they live in a one party system, they know that other systems exist (obviously).

A fair bit of access doesn't really cut the mustard. I wonder what percentage actually make the effort to see any information outside of what the government feeds them.

I went to high school with a mainland Chinese student. His father was a corrupt public official (fairly obvious to me, being familiar with how communist bureaucracies work) yet he still sucked up the propaganda like a chump. He believed the official Chinese line about Tiananmen for example (some of the charred bodies had nice crisp, undamaged police uniforms on them, proving that they were provoked into taking action by the demonstrators).

Later at law school I spoke to professors who remember Chinese exchange students who had problems coming to grips with the idea of owning land.

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Money trumps all though. They like being top dog in the world and they aren't about to start fucking that up for themselves.

To the vast majority of Chinese the money is nothing more than abstract economic performance figures they read in the paper. The life of a factory worker or rice farmer hasn't improved phenomenally. Those figures are important though.. as I said before, to someone who has no conception of personal wealth or individual rights, you have to believe in national pride otherwise you really have nothing.

Furthermore the democracy movement in the 80s got a lot of Western press.. but it really was never that significant. The changes they wanted weren't that radical.. and relative to the population it wasn't all that popular. It was a threat that was taken care of. The Chinese don't really have democratic value in their culture - it's all Confucian, loyalty to the family unit and deference to seniority extended to a state level - obedience to the emperor trumping all other duties.

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The same could be said about Russia, but there its for more nationalistic. There was little to the Soviet Union about a world workers revolution, the true spirit of their socialist founding philosophies. You could almost entirely call the Soviet expansionism during the 20th century as a cover for Russian nationalism and the same as Peter the Great and other Russian imperial movements.

Again they went from one form of slavery to another. I know my peasant great grandparents (one of whom was a hero of the revolution) saw their lives only get worse after the revolution. But the majority probably felt better about their new form of serfdom because they were constantly bombarded with propaganda about the evil West and how they were part of the greatest nation on earth that was going to defeat the evils of capitalism etc..
Who knows how they would have felt, or what they would have chosen for themselves if their information was not so limited.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby See what I did there? I just replaced the worlds largest communist state with the worlds largest democracy and got essentially the same thing. You are blaming the wrong things.

I don't think the Indian state is even capable of censoring its numerous sources of information even if the huge bureaucratic government had the coordination to form the intent to do so.

Secondly I've been friends with lots of Indian immigrants that did go back to India. Of those that didn't I haven't met a single one that bags out the country's political system (individual politicians and certain institutions sure, but not the state, party, media and everything to do with it - as you tend to hear from Chinese immigrants) or claims they were being oppressed in any way.

Thirdly, they haven't hosted an Olympic games of late. And I don't really see how their democratic model is antithetical to modern civilization.

As Astroboy pointed out, you can't compare India and China. You're comparing apples and oranges.

China is to its people, what religious zealot parents are to their children. They have little hope of breaking the cycle because all they ever know is taught to them by their parents and anything that rivals that dominance is quickly stamped out by the parents. You can draw parallels to the Chinese people and their government there.

They aren't ever given the option of choosing. In fact, most probably don't even know that they have a choice!

it is pretty easy to judge another state's policy, especially if it's one that believes in an alternate form of government...

i think the whole 'indoctrinated' argument is completely bankrupt since we're all indoctrinated in some way... they grew up being told what to think? how are we any different? just because we got told to be free?
fuck, capitalism is even worse because it's so hypocritical: Force people to be free, suprised orwell didn't have that as one of the slogans in 1984...

as far as people thinking they're happy but you claiming they're not, that's just the most ludicrously arrogant thing that an imperialist can say.

and censored information: how do we get information? goes thru channels, and is controlled by business.
just because we get different information doesn't necessarily mean we're on some enlightened end of the information highway...

oh you might think you're happy with your spiritual existence, at one with the earth, but let me show you our soulless, money and power-based economy... you'll never look back..

now, obviously you boys aren't saying that, but the truth is that it's how it works out.. just because somebody has a different life to you doesn't mean you're better, and DOES mean that you have no right to intervene!

when it comes to international relations i think the best perspective comes from asking yourself "who the fuck am i??"

unless you ARE one of the people you're judging then you should probably back away.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz As Astroboy pointed out, you can't compare India and China. You're comparing apples and oranges. China is to its people, what religious zealot parents are to their children. They have little hope of breaking the cycle because all they ever know is taught to them by their parents and anything that rivals that dominance is quickly stamped out by the parents. You can draw parallels to the Chinese people and their government there. They aren't ever given the option of choosing. In fact, most probably don't even know that they have a choice!

you can't compare india and china, but you're comparing china to your own personal opinons about rights and government.

also, if people aren't able to manage their own governments how the hell did we become democratic??
1: these things don't happen overnight and 2: they ALWAYS fuck up if forced. 3: they always fuck up even WORSE when forced by external pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fuck people. and fuck you too boris.

what did i do now? you son of a whore

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII it is pretty easy to judge another state's policy, especially if it's one that believes in an alternate form of government... i think the whole 'indoctrinated' argument is completely bankrupt since we're all indoctrinated in some way... they grew up being told what to think? how are we any different? just because we got told to be free?

I've lived under both systems.. believe me there is a fucking world of difference. Yes we're all indoctrinated in some way but that is a different animal altogether to Soviet style indoctrination

quote:

fuck, capitalism is even worse because it's so hypocritical: Force people to be free, suprised orwell didn't have that as one of the slogans in 1984...

I would say it reflects the nature of humanity. We are all condemned to choose... even in a dictatorship.

quote:

as far as people thinking they're happy but you claiming they're not, that's just the most ludicrously arrogant thing that an imperialist can say. [quote]and censored information: how do we get information? goes thru channels, and is controlled by business. just because we get different information doesn't necessarily mean we're on some enlightened end of the information highway...

Not different.. diverse. Find me a satyrical show like the chaser anywhere on Russian TV. In fact find me any take on the government on any TV channel that is anything but glowing.

North Korean people, to take an extreme example, have a choice of watching "what the dear leader did today" "an opera based on the life of the dear leader" "a play based on the life of the dear leader" "what the dear leader plans to do tomorrow" "how the dear leader has created the greatest nation on earth" "how the US sends tributes to the dear leader" etc.. Those people believe they're happy because they have nothing to compare to... they are told their state is the greatest even as they starve to death. If they were free to see and watch what they wanted, leave the country for holidays etc and still chose the dear leader, more power to them. But their choice is hindered by their lack of knowledge.

quote:

now, obviously you boys aren't saying that, but the truth is that it's how it works out.. just because somebody has a different life to you doesn't mean you're better, and DOES mean that you have no right to intervene!

I'm not better.. I wouldn;t suggest that I am better than someone. But I'm better OFF than I was living there, and I'm sure people like Solzhenytsin, Dostoevsky or any number of dissidents that continued to live there despite the regime would agree with me.

In terms of intervention I think it's only warranted when things I am extremely uncomfortable with occur.. women being stoned, people being tortured etc.. I won't pretend I have access to some repository of universal human rights, in fact I'll admit it is imperialistic.. but I don't really give a shit.. hey at least I'm not giving you a song and dance about universal morals.

quote:

Originally posted by boris_the_bear what did i do now? you son of a whore

Pk doesn't like you cuz u are the enemy in his favorite FPS..

What happened to the good old days when this thread was about remote controls up the ass?

quote:

Originally posted by astroboy 1: I've lived under both systems.. believe me there is a fucking world of difference. Yes we're all indoctrinated in some way but that is a different animal altogether to Soviet style indoctrination 2: I would say it reflects the nature of humanity. We are all condemned to choose... even in a dictatorship. 3: Not different.. diverse. Find me a satyrical show like the chaser anywhere on Russian TV. In fact find me any take on the government on any TV channel that is anything but glowing. North Korean people, to take an extreme example, have a choice of watching "what the dear leader did today" "an opera based on the life of the dear leader" "a play based on the life of the dear leader" "what the dear leader plans to do tomorrow" "how the dear leader has created the greatest nation on earth" "how the US sends tributes to the dear leader" etc.. 4: Those people believe they're happy because they have nothing to compare to... they are told their state is the greatest even as they starve to death. If they were free to see and watch what they wanted, leave the country for holidays etc and still chose the dear leader, more power to them. But their choice is hindered by their lack of knowledge. 5: I'm not better.. I wouldn;t suggest that I am better than someone. But I'm better OFF than I was living there, and I'm sure people like Solzhenytsin, Dostoevsky or any number of dissidents that continued to live there despite the regime would agree with me. In terms of intervention I think it's only warranted when things I am extremely uncomfortable with occur.. women being stoned, people being tortured etc.. I won't pretend I have access to some repository of universal human rights, in fact I'll admit it is imperialistic.. but I don't really give a shit.. hey at least I'm not giving you a song and dance about universal morals.

1: fair enough, i havn't lived under soviet rule, so i really can't say subjectively how it is: i've studied it a fair bit and have talked to a fair few people who were a part of it however. One of my friends, for example, is polish: her parents wanted to go back to communism because at least in those days everybody was poor

2: we are indeed condemned to choose: that's why i believe it's their perogative to manage their own government... not sure how this was meant to be in opposition to what i said, or maybe it wasn't...? by forcing somebody to be free i was talking about democratic expansionist policy.. trying to make everybody democratic, even if they don't want to. one of those hilarious ironies i think

3: not sure about the tv stuff: i would say that the chasers was cancelled because it was 'too controvercial' despite 'free speech' rights, and the amount of censorship that goes on in the US and here is completely ridiculous, but of course it's really beside the point...
i guess i'm saying, again, that it's relative: we're not some libertarian nation without an oppressive state... if anything it's worse because many people believe we are...

4: define happiness. seriously. there is no way you can define happiness in any other way than by opinion. there is absolutely no way you can claim happiness is objective. what's the difference why a person is happy if they are happy? is there a scale of happiness that can be used to measure them against us? of course not...

5: i think you and i pretty much agree, but the thing is that intervention: even judging the conditions of another state, or the mental state of another person is completely arrogant... it is based on your own sense of self-importance... i think that basically people can take care of themselves and it flies in the face of history and respect to deny that. just cause we have more money and a completely absurd military budget in the west doesn't mean we know any better than any other state.
just because we have different history doesn't mean we've 'progressed' more than anyone else. what it does mean that the human precedent exists and can be achieved by other people if and when they choose.

You can't honestly tell me that because we're foreigners, we have no right to comment and prevent human injustice in other nations? They may have their own ways and beliefs but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

You may have grown up in your cosy little western democracy but I suggest you go live in some other countries to get a different perspective on how good we have it here and stamp that naivety out of your head.

You're basically saying that because we don't understand the Chinese/Russian way of life, we can't effectively comment on it. What to us seems like human injustice is in reality unicorn, rainbows and kisses in a wonderful utopia to the people that actually live there. I didn't think anyone could be that naive.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz You can't honestly tell me that because we're foreigners, we have no right to comment and prevent human injustice in other nations? They may have their own ways and beliefs but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You may have grown up in your cosy little western democracy but I suggest you go live in some other countries to get a different perspective on how good we have it here and stamp that naivety out of your head. You're basically saying that because we don't understand the Chinese/Russian way of life, we can't effectively comment on it. What to us seems like human injustice is in reality unicorn, rainbows and kisses in a wonderful utopia to the people that actually live there. I didn't think anyone could be that naive.

exactly. moral relativism is for mugs.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Or you could be a modern American NeoCon and actually enjoy being told how to act and think by radio and TV personalities.

This. It's amazing how sheep-like the majority of the population are.

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Originally posted by david.michael What happened to the good old days when this thread was about remote controls up the ass?

gotta love the interweb.

hahahaha, that's great SV.

quote:

Originally posted by SuspicionVandit

I like that you made a key point of making the fag line blue.

lmfao

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz You can't honestly tell me that because we're fo reigners, we have no right to comment and prevent human injustice in other nations? They may have their own ways and beliefs but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You may have grown up in your cosy little western democracy but I suggest you go live in some other countries to get a different perspective on how good we have it here and stamp that naivety out of your head. You're basically saying that because we don't understand the Chinese/Russian way of life, we can't effectively comment on it. What to us seems like human injustice is in reality unicorn, rainbows and kisses in a wonderful utopia to the people that actually live there. I didn't think anyone could be that naive.

let's just homogenise the planet then and deny any kind of difference.

as i already said you can call me naive, but i can call you arrogant.
of course i'm speaking from a western point of view. I don't claim to be able to understand something that i'm not. You're undermining the entirety of human history, and the concept of progress/evolution if you're denying to allow anything bad to exist...

am i more naive for claiming that it's not our place to 'fix' things that are going badly from our perspective, or are you more naive for assuming that we CAN solve the problems of another state/nation??

again: government doesn't happen overnight: like everything physical, states are in flux, they're not solid, and they're not simple. It is arrogance alone which leads people to believe they can cast judgement on such a broad and complex system which has been evolving for centuries, or longer.

yet, just because we have the internet and the UN charter we all suddenly feel it's our right to preach about our ways of life, because, since we believe in 'freedom' we are the most highly evolved system... LOL.

edit: and of course i believe in a basic level of human rights, and i believe in the individual, but i am not arrogant enough to believe that every person in the world should believe in the same things i do, and i don't plan to force my extremely biased views on the international system. i KNOW who i am, and where i am.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated This. It's amazing how sheep-like the majority of the population are.

concur. you believe you're free? no problem, continue being absorbed into the masses.

the masses, that's ridiculous you cry! of course it is, let me hand you the menu of choices for your life's course: feel free to choose you're complete freedom from these list of 20 beliefs... and no, there are no special orders.



Hahahah at table..

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