TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Music Discussion
-- Mnimal and Tech-house
Pages (8): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 »

The musical forms that fathered house and techno were also largely black in terms of composers and listening base, at least in their early stages, so it's no surprise that the founders of house and techno would themselves be black. I think the fact the founders of house and techno were black has zip to do with any *actual* influence of any specific African music. I mean, do you ever see techno pioneers citing specific native African musicians, recordings, or musical styles? Seems to me the so-called "influence" of African music on techno may be more about the "influence" of a certain mythology or archetype, e.g. that African music simply *is* "hypnotic drum-trance stuff," and an attempt by certain black Americans to embody such an archetype in modern sounds.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Black Americans have lived in the same culture as white Americans for hundreds of years. Ancient black culture is absolutely irrelevant. Any notion there's some inherent non-European culture in black people has to be genetic. Which is why I extended the implication to the notion that black people are inherently prehistoric. Which is your underlying racist connection, despite all your hasty retreading.

no.

my comment was not racist, yours was. I never discussed genetics, i only discussed culture.

'ancient' black culture actually isn't so ancient, and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.









JBJ - i didnt say that the influence had to do with music, i said it had to do with a perceptual mode of thinking dominant in a culture, which was manifested in certain forms and influenced its sons and daughters who looked back to it in order to discover themselves.

System J, you are too focused on the dualism itself and not the continuum that it creates. Dominance of either image or word in a culture fluctuates along this continuum.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec 'ancient' black culture actually isn't so ancient, and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.

But we weren't talking about Miles Davis or Sun Ra, we were talking about techno.

How is that culture relevant to techno? And anyway, I still don't buy that African culture is any more "image-based" or less "word-based" than Euro culture in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But we weren't talking about Miles Davis or Sun Ra, we were talking about techno.

who do you think techno artists grew up listening to? what did their parents listen to?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec my comment was not racist, yours was. I never discussed genetics, i only discussed culture.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? They didn't live in a non-word-based culture. Never had. The only connection they had to non-word-based black culture was being black. That's genetic. Think about the implications of your babble.

Saying black culture is not about words is almost literally denying black people a voice. Post-colonialists would have a fucking field day with your nonsense.

quote:

and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.

Really? Because here's me thinking you claimed techno was interested in utopian futurism, not history. Have you actually read those quotes from that first "Techno!" compilation? I'm sure you have. The Belleville trio don't sound very interested in a continuum with their African heritage there, do they?

Sun Ra has nothing to do with this argument. The fact some black musicians embraced their African heritage does not mean all of them do, and it doesn't mean all of black culture is interested only its African origins. That's the logic of stereotyping. The hole you dig just gets deeper. Why don't you stop talking such shite and admit you made something up off the top of your head that sounded weighty and deep only because you put no real thought into its implications?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec who do you think techno artists grew up listening to? what did their parents listen to?

I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. Fuck's sake.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. Fuck's sake.

Near as I can tell, many of them were interested in both the past and the future, which is probably what makes so much of the music they produced rather timeless.

(Dark Energy also happens to be one of my all-time favourite UR pieces - phenomenal piece of work)

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Are you even reading what I'm saying? They didn't live in a non-word-based culture. Never had. The only connection they had to non-word-based black culture was being black. That's genetic. Think about the implications of your babble.

Of course, but I am not concerned with the artists blackness - they themselves are, and they are making music about it!

just take for example robert hood:

listen to his 'Nighttime World' albums. Particulatly the tracks 'the color of skin', 'electric ******', and 'blackness'. here are some links to samples:
http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=92816

look at his myspace. the top two musician friends he has are sun-ra and george clinton.

read this quote from his bio (not relevant to african influences, but his commitment to black culture.

quote:

Although his desire to remain underground has been replaced by an urge to reach a wider audience, Hood remains fiercely critical of artistic and economic movements destructive to inner-city communities and has combined his musical enterprises with outreach and social activist ends. With this in mind the seminal �Nighttime World Pt.1� in 1995 and �Nighttime World Pt.2� in 2000 incorporating Jazz, Soul, Hip Hop as well as Techno and House.

this is a rob hood track with his wife doing vocals.

listen to this and suck a big one SYSTEM-J

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Saying black culture is not about words is almost literally denying black people a voice. Post-colonialists would have a fucking field day with your nonsense.

it's not dominated by WRITTEN word. spoken word, it most definitely is. I just realized I should have made that clearer from the beginning - I thought I did when I mentioned the development of the alphabet but I guess not.

if anyone here is denying black techno artists a voice, it is you, for denying that which they are saying so clearly - in essence "techno is our music and music for our ancestors".

i'm going to repost that record pivot techno posted just in case you pretend to not see it

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Really? Because here's me thinking you claimed techno was interested in utopian futurism, not history. Have you actually read those quotes from that first "Techno!" compilation? I'm sure you have. The Belleville trio don't sound very interested in a continuum with their African heritage there, do they?

see above video. you shouldn't fixate on the belleville three, they weren't the only ones.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Sun Ra has nothing to do with this argument. The fact some black musicians embraced their African heritage does not mean all of them do, and it doesn't mean all of black culture is interested only its African origins. That's the logic of stereotyping. The hole you dig just gets deeper. Why don't you stop talking such shite and admit you made something up off the top of your head that sounded weighty and deep only because you put no real thought into its implications?

again, sun-ra was a huge influence on robert hood, and that's his statement, not mine. I am tending towards generalizations because I have to make a point within the space of a internet forum thread, it's not as if am writing a book.

please stop making this so personal, especially with trying to discern my motives. you are quite an asshole.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. Fuck's sake.

As if nothing you read as a child has influenced you.

Fuck's sake.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec if anyone here is denying black techno artists a voice, it is you, for denying that which they are saying so clearly - in essence "techno is our music and music for our ancestors".

Oh fuck you. I am not generalising or stereotyping what "black culture" is about. I am not even emphasising black music or black culture as distinct or seperate to any other music or culture. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, making assumptions about anyone's influences.

The Belleville trio invented techno. They are the ground zero of the genre in question. If you're not going to focus on them then you can't claim techno is "black music" because the second generation had plenty of white producers. AND if their records do not contain the "essence" of techno, to use your inner-form classifications, then no essence exists and you lose the argument by default. And the best you've got is they possibly listened to a few black artists growing up who cared about African culture, which possibly maybe influenced them in some way. Not enough grounds to make half-assed generalisations about a genre just because you've read another wanky book and had a brainstorm.

Robert Hood is one person. He does not represent a whole genre and he certainly does not represent all fucking black musicians. The trouble with your generalisations is they don't hold up. You're talking about the inherent musical DNA of a whole genre as if it inherently encodes a certain cultural element.

Using your own pathetic logic, I could pick out Sven Vath's album "Accident In Paradise" and its weird harpsicord interludes that are clearly him attempting to reinvent early 90s trance as some sort of modern classical. Does that mean I can say "Trance music is all about white musicians encoding their European written-word based sequential musical history into a technological continuum"? No! Because Vath neither invented trance nor is its spokesman. He's just one guy pursuing his own angle. Just because he did it does mean it's encoded into the genre.

If you're going to claim techno represents African pre-slavery culture it has to be there from the start and it has to be an undisputible part of every techno record. Without it, techno wouldn't exist. You can't claim that. You can't claim close to that. You've just Robert Hood, a few other experiments and a whole heap of frantic backtracking arguments.

As far as I'm concerned, what you've got is an unconsciously racist assumption that because the techno originators were black they must channel the Spirit Of Africa and a deeply different culture to white Western, written-language based culture. And that's fucking racism, for all your feeble backtracks into what their parents may have listened to. You just don't like your own implicit connections being spelled out to you.

Oh, and I'll make it personal as much as I like. You're fucking annoying. When I use personal shit in place of logic it will become ad hominem and you'll have a leg to stand on.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec As if nothing you read as a child has influenced you.

Some things I read as a child influenced me =/= everything I read as a child influenced me.

Juan Atkins parents possibly listened to Sun Ra =/= Juan Atkins was inspired by Sun Ra's Afrocentrism when he pioneered techno.

Learn 2 Logic.

I wonder why do people often end up arguing on this forum lol

Activism on behalf of black urban communities will of course have a lot to do with black *American* culture, but it doesn't necessarily have much to do with Africa or any African cultures. And while the occasional use of iconography related to Africa (an outline of the continent on a record label, for example) speaks of a concern for roots and racial or ethnic identity, it doesn't necessarily imply any deep level of influence from or familiarity with native African music *or* culture. I think you need more than such tenuous links like these to support this thesis that techno is an extension of "African image-centered culture."

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The Belleville trio invented techno. They are the ground zero of the genre in question. If you're not going to focus on them then you can't claim techno is "black music" because the second generation had plenty of white producers. AND if their records do not contain the "essence" of techno, to use your inner-form classifications, then no essence exists and you lose the argument by default. And the best you've got is they possibly listened to a few black artists growing up who cared about African culture, which possibly maybe influenced them in some way. Not enough grounds to make half-assed generalisations about a genre just because you've read another wanky book and had a brainstorm. Robert Hood is one person. He does not represent a whole genre and he certainly does not represent all fucking black musicians. The trouble with your generalisations is they don't hold up. You're talking about the inherent musical DNA of a whole genre as if it inherently encodes a certain cultural element.

Man, you are really getting desperate, clinging to your belleville island - now Rob Hood is irrelevant? I don't even know where to begin, it's as if you expect someone to provide every single possible example to prove a point? Rob Hood is the one person I used because that's all the time I care to devote to your inane squabblings.

Here's are some quotes to really make you look like an ass. I can't wait to see what is left of your belleville rock after these.

Juan Atkins -

quote:

Juan has his own theory about why this occurred. "Maybe techno coming out of Detroit had more of the black experience involved, and of course what we've grown up with is soul music and R&B stuff, and then there's funk itself. So I guess it would be only natural that more of these elements would show up." Given the Detroit crew's pivotal role in the development of techno, it's downright strange that mainstream America is only now getting into the electronic groove, but via the imported sounds of British producers like the Prodigy, the Chemical Brothers and Underworld. "It's history repeating itself," Juan declares. "I mean look back at the Beatles and the Rolling Stones - you can hear in their music that their main influence was Motown. It's obvious! . . . but it took the Beatles to be the supergroup - nobody from Motown could fit that bill." An irritating aspect of history? "Of course it is - it's racism, you know? It's irritating because racism is suppression, so I guess you have to thank god that there are people in the world who don't really care about that. I think it's changing here in America, but too slowly. You have to remember that the industry in this country is based around capitalism, and that involves a certain amount of exploitation, an emphasis on marketing and profit, and bottom line. So when you have that you have people being over-cautious about market tastes and they'll underestimate a lot of things - like the black experience here in America. So we get ignored even when we do something innovative.

Here's a quote from Kevin Saunderson

quote:

I think from with kraftwerk what attracted them to me was that they were making future music, it was something you didn�t hear of anyone else and they had their own look going on, that was cool to me. And then with stuff like disco, which was the black dance music movement that preceded us in Techno, they were bringing in records that were making people dance, but using you know vocals and adding a soulful edge. Our interpretation I guess centred on what we wanted to do, taking from these influences but giving our own point of view.

another Kevin Saunderson quote

quote:

[Techno] should be included, and finally, steps are being made to change that. There are some people in Detroit who are going to be putting together an exhibit of techno at the African-American Museum, and [also of] the different movements in different cities. We need stuff like that. We need support like that to help it be known. That's the problem in the Black community now. They know nothing of the music or the history. At one time it was all Black. It's amazing how it's shifted completely."

Here's a quote from Derrick May

quote:

hi-tech. I always try to keep it Tribal hi-tech . I like to stay with the sound that has never really been properly discovered, which is the sound of Detroit. The sound of hi-tech tribalism ; it's very spiritual, very bass oriented, and very drum oriented, very percussive. The original Techno music was very hi-tech with a very percussive feel, so there were lots of strings, lots of sounds to the left, then sounds to the right. But it was extremely, extremely Tribal. It feels like you're in some sort of hi-tech village."

Another Derrick May

quote:

It's kind of insulting. We're in our 30s. We've been doing this since we were 18 years old. The whole world's been listening, and finally somebody back home wants to pay attention. We've been ambassadors for the city, running around the world, and people back home have no idea." He added, "It comes down to keeping the fact alive that this music originated from a black element. It's a black art form. We are on a mission, and we refuse to be forgotten.

and this isnt 'belleville', but here is a jeff mills quote

quote:

All the black men you see in America today are the direct result of those actions: all the freedoms we have, as well as the restrictions, refer back to the government and the Black Panthers in the '70s," "So we make music. We make music about who we are and where we�re from. Of course there are going to be links � that's why we had songs with titles like Riot. Because that's indicative of the era we were born in, and the things we remember. As time goes on, naturally I think the messages will get further away from that. It's not a coincidence. There is a reason behind UR and Public Enemy and these people.

i could go on and on with providing examples like this. techno is black music, get over it already.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Activism on behalf of black urban communities will of course have a lot to do with black *American* culture, but it doesn't necessarily have much to do with Africa or any African cultures. And while the occasional use of iconography related to Africa (an outline of the continent on a record label, for example) speaks of a concern for roots and racial or ethnic identity, it doesn't necessarily imply any deep level of influence from or familiarity with native African music *or* culture. I think you need more than such tenuous links like these to support this thesis that techno is an extension of "African image-centered culture."

Who are you to call the inclusion of that iconography shallow or tenuous?

What classifies 'deep level of influence' to you?

Ever heard of Afrika Bambaataa? He changed his name to a Zulu Leader after he won a school contest to travel to Africa. He came back and started a hip hop group called 'universal zulu nation', then produced some of the music most influential to early techno producers such as Juan Atkins - electro. Is that deep enough? That's one guy. There are many others as well. Kool Herc. Jamaican immigrant, moved to nyc out of the the dub/soundsystem/rastafarian culture of Kingston, basically invented hip hop deejaying and thus the style of music that became known as hip hop. (BTW What do you think Jeff Mills was deejaying before he became a big shot techno producer? He was a hip hop deejay (the wizard) playing the same shit as Kool Herc and Bambaataa.) The links are strong and many. This isn't like reading a Roald Dahl book, this is formative, identifying, influential - this music was their lives, and as I have shown in many ways, basically all of the techno pioneers understand and expound its relation to black culture.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Who are you to call the inclusion of that iconography shallow or tenuous?

I didn't say it was "shallow," I said it doesn't *automatically* imply deep familiarity or influence.

quote:

What classifies 'deep level of influence' to you? Ever heard of Afrika Bambaataa? He changed his name to a Zulu Leader after he won a school contest to travel to Africa. He came back and started a hip hop group called 'universal zulu nation', then produced some of the music most influential to early techno producers such as Juan Atkins - electro. Is that deep enough? That's one guy. There are many others as well. Kool Herc. Jamaican immigrant, moved to nyc out of the the dub/soundsystem/rastafarian culture of Kingston, basically invented hip hop deejaying and thus the style of music that became known as hip hop. (BTW What do you think Jeff Mills was deejaying before he became a big shot techno producer? He was a hip hop deejay (the wizard) playing the same shit as Kool Herc and Bambaataa.) The links are strong and many. This isn't like reading a Roald Dahl book, this is formative, identifying, influential - this music was their lives, and as I have shown in many ways, basically all of the techno pioneers understand and expound its relation to black culture. I don't see why this is so hard for you guys to grasp.

I'll admit you know more about the background than I do and the links may be stronger than I thought. But I think our point all along was that an idea or an element of culture is not "African" simply by virtue of being invented or expounded by black people, and you seemed to be using the two notions interchangeably. I may have been misreading, though.

JBJ, you make a valid criticism of my thesis on 'african' influence. This is more tenuous, I agree, but I really don't think given the afrofuturist musico-cultural environment in which the artists immersed themselves, that it is so far fetched to believe that something about the music might, in its 'DNA Makeup' for lack of a better term, have a more to do with african music and culture than some random guy from sweden making a tech house track. That was the extent of my argument.

But as far as techno being 'black music', I think this is exceedingly obvious. The degree to which black implies african is the question.

Anyways I appreciate your lucidity and the respect you afford me as a fellow human being in your response, given the way others in this discussion have conducted themselves.

This is a ethnomusicological thesis that I am interested in researching seriously [academically], and I'm glad you recognize it as a thesis. Maybe some day when I have done the research and conducted the right interviews, etc I can present you with something less 'tenuous', but for now it's all I have.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec JBJ, you make a valid criticism of my thesis on 'african' influence. This is more tenuous, I agree, but I really don't think given the afrofuturist musico-cultural environment in which the artists immersed themselves, that it is so far fetched to believe that something about the music might, in its 'DNA Makeup' for lack of a better term, have a more to do with african music and culture than some random guy from sweden making a tech house track. That was the extent of my argument. Anyways I appreciate your lucidity and the respect you afford me as a fellow human being in your response, given the way others in this discussion conduct themselves. This is a ethnomusicological thesis that I am interested in researching seriously [academically], and I'm glad you recognize it as a thesis. Maybe some day when I have done the research and conducted the right interviews, etc I can present you with something less 'tenuous', but for now it's all I have.

Well, if you pursue it further I'd be interested in reading what you come up with. Thanks for a good discussion.

Also, Dubfire's take on techno truly is awful. On this we can all agree.

quote:

Originally posted by mr.anderson I wonder why do people often end up arguing on this forum lol

If you can't handle civilised discussions with interesting points of views then head over to some fairy fanboi forums.

Similarly, if you think it's so lame and nerdy GTFO.

im going to oversimplify (and disnigracrackerfy) this debate now

Tech-House
Trentemoller - Beta Boy
Misc. - B Movie 6:00am

Minimal
Shed - The Lower Upside Down (surgeon remix)
Dettman & Klock - Blank Scenario

MNML_OMG_PLINK_PLONK_MNUS_OMG_KHOLE
JPLS - Quasarlude
anything (Dubfire Remix)

I think the OP will be able to discern since this are rather exaggerated examples. There are several elements on each genre to identify them:

In tech house we have familiar house sounds, there are melodies and hooks and stuff but tries to keep some of the techno 'sterility' and synthetic sounding elements

In minimal (as a way to make music, not a genre perse), as somebody already said, the flow and energy are given to the track by repeating, adding in removing elements, without that much continuity that accompanies other kinds of music.

In mnml (the genre, actually being minimal-techno), well, we have richie tiestin telling everybody what to do while turning himself and his music into basically the epic trance of the so-called-underground music scene

I don't think it is very civilised when people start to abuse each other and call each other offensive names

quote:

Originally posted by ToF If you can't handle civilised discussions with interesting points of views then head over to some fairy fanboi forums. Similarly, if you think it's so lame and nerdy GTFO.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec i could go on and on with providing examples like this. techno is black music, get over it already.

And, as I've repeatedly stated, black music/culture/people do not automatically relate to pre-slavery African culture. The only way black music can inherently channel something from a society the creator did not grow up in is genetically. Which is, once, again, racism.

I'm well aware of Afrika Bambaataa and his Zulu Nation business. Funny thing is I've listened to his music many, many times and it has always sounded distinctly word-based and horizontally composed to me. Which just goes to show that even when someone is very explicitly referencing African culture, it doesn't necessarily mean shit-all for your argument.

Learn 2 Logic.

Damn, i kinda miss those TA arguments from the usual faces...how are you guys!?




Now i don't understand the reasons behind the furious arguments about the origins of detroit techno. Yes ofcourse there is an indirect African influence in the music of the Belleville trio, you typically get those polyrhythmic patterns and that passion for the drum beat and body-movement. I'm not sure though if those influeces were the direct result of the Belleville trio's exposure to some kind of traditional African music, or maybe an indirect influence arising from African musical elements as they were carried-on by (and contained in) Jazz, Funk and Disco. In any case i think that one can surely sense an "African musical spirit" but mixed (ironically?) with the cold and clear-cut European electronics of Kraftwerk. You either get ingenious success or catastrophic failure after such adventurous and (phenomenally) contrasting blend of ideas. I can't understand whats all the fuss about.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.