TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- My guess as to why dance music is more disposable than ever
Pages (5): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 »

the music is in a very healthy state. the business however, not so much

Quivver - Brothers and Sisters - hm nice track.

Trance to me has been epic from 98 when I first heard EDM to present, bring on 2010's tracks and DJ's!

quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone the music is in a very healthy state. the business however, not so much

lol its oposite, whats happening in the business is great, forcing the old folks to either give up or to change, CDs will be gonne in 5 years and a new formats will show up. This is great.

quote:

Originally posted by helion normal people do not want 2 minutes of intro/outro when listening to a song. I know several people who enjoy trance tracks (once they get going), but they all have the same reaction when a song starts - they want to change the station or MP3 after hearing nothing but the kick drum for 10 seconds.

You just described me to a T. I despise the long and boring do-nothing/go-nowhere intros, particularly when it's just a kick and/or kick/off-beat bass. The irony here is that EDM producers are notorious for complaining about how unoriginal the genre has become and the lack of creativity, yet the majority still cling to 32 bars of a 4/floor kick drum, at the same tempo, for every song ......snoooooooze.....

What's the reason for doing this? Because the DJs need it that way or they won't play your song, right? F#$% that - I say make your music interesting enough that people want to hear it and let the DJs figure out how to fit it into a mix (it can't be that hard to do, not even for a DJ ). And, if they can't figure out how to fit it into their set in real-time, then (gasp!) they might actually have a brief pause while they cue it up! During that brief pause, the club will empty out, oil prices will rise, puppies will die, etc. - just ask anybody who has ever played in a live dance band.

quote:

Originally posted by helion Unfortunately, people have short attention spans and get bored after listening to a kick for a few seconds, much less 32 bars.

I don't think it's as simple as that - you can't blame the listener's attention span for not wanting to hear what has become very boring and cliche style (i.e., long kick drum intros). People will pay attention to the most seemingly mundane pieces if there is something different than they're accustomed to going on. People can only hear so many bars of 4/floor kick so many times before seeing it as boring, uninspired, lacking creativity/interest, etc. In many cases, they've probably come to (semi-consciously, at least) expect that the 32 bars of do-nothing intro is possibly a predecessor to 8 minutes of not much more.

I second that.

Now for a change, if only we could ignore the dj's for a second and focus on the music. Should dj's dictate the way music is being built?? I don't think so.

I remember playing track with almost no intro back in 2000, now all tracks I have begin with 32 bars of intro beat, psshshhhhhh wind fx, and, the same formula over over again.

The music has become what klaus schulze cites as being "muzak", disposable and crap music. Everyone's waiting for a change, but no one wants to break the chains with dj's.

And some try it out, and everyone thinks they're nuts?!? That's how nuts they were in 1980 when the music industry woke up!

A simple solution for the long and tedious intros would to just give DJs a 64 bar click track they can beatmatch to, and then after that have at least one element on the beat(which is likely).

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik You just described me to a T. I despise the long and boring do-nothing/go-nowhere intros, particularly when it's just a kick and/or kick/off-beat bass. The irony here is that EDM producers are notorious for complaining about how unoriginal the genre has become and the lack of creativity, yet the majority still cling to 32 bars of a 4/floor kick drum, at the same tempo, for every song ......snoooooooze..... What's the reason for doing this? Because the DJs need it that way or they won't play your song, right? F#$% that - I say make your music interesting enough that people want to hear it and let the DJs figure out how to fit it into a mix (it can't be that hard to do, not even for a DJ ). And, if they can't figure out how to fit it into their set in real-time, then (gasp!) they might actually have a brief pause while they cue it up! During that brief pause, the club will empty out, oil prices will rise, puppies will die, etc. - just ask anybody who has ever played in a live dance band. I don't think it's as simple as that - you can't blame the listener's attention span for not wanting to hear what has become very boring and cliche style (i.e., long kick drum intros). People will pay attention to the most seemingly mundane pieces if there is something different than they're accustomed to going on. People can only hear so many bars of 4/floor kick so many times before seeing it as boring, uninspired, lacking creativity/interest, etc. In many cases, they've probably come to (semi-consciously, at least) expect that the 32 bars of do-nothing intro is possibly a predecessor to 8 minutes of not much more.

I strongly disagree with this for a couple of reasons.

First, for me, dance music is best when played in the context of a mix. It is not designed to be played as a stand alone, and in many cases I feel like this actually detracts from the overall feel of a track. There is nothing quite like having a good mix. Simple elements from the new track slowly begin taking over the previous track, then the bass of the next track comes in right when the previous track drops it out, etc. Its really cool when its done right. I feel like each track should be a puzzle piece that can be used intelligently by a good DJ to create a "journey".

There is nothing stopping you from creating an intro or outro that still remains interesting and keeps the track mixable. Lots of tracks do this both now and in the past. Intro's and outros are designed so that the next track actually becomes a part of the previous track, thereby creating something unique in the process. For me, a lot of the magic gets lost when you hear a track outside the context of a mix because its kind of like trying to decipher the picture on a half-assembled jigsaw puzzle. It becomes incomplete. There was a time where no one ever considered playing a dance track outside of a mix, because that is where it belonged. The mix is part of the experience, part of the journey. Its one of the things that separates dance music from other forms of music.

Second, if your goal is to get your track played out in a club, on a radio mixshow, podcast or wherever, the last thing you want to do is make your track difficult to mix by eliminating the intro or outro. I know a lot of DJ's over the years who would not play a track if there wasn't a mixable intro or outro, even if it was good. Its annoying as hell if you are a DJ, especially if you are the type of DJ who likes long mixes. The only acceptable exception, IMO, is when you have an beatless intro, and thats only so you can start off a mix with that track.

Maybe its because I was a DJ before I was a producer, or maybe its just because I remember a time when it was all about the mix and there was never a time when you heard this type of stuff on the radio outside of mix shows. I feel like this is why we have radio edits for tracks. If you want to make a track thats going to play well when listened to outside a mix, then kill the intro/outro and make a 3 or 4 minute version for that purpose. Otherwise, leave the intros and outros and play the track in the context it was intended for. IN a mix.

Sure, Eric, you've got a point. There's magic in some of those tracks. As well as there's none in many of them.

The best tracks out of my 92-95 collection were not the easiest to mix together. I can give you a thousand examples. Many of those records didn't start with a beat, but with a melody, a hat in counter-beat, a vocal. You had to know it. I remember the age of love vinyl and its awful bass drum intro that was 4 bars minus a beat long!!!

That's where I think we don't agree with each other, as I found out personally, very nice that we can mix records easily, but if most of the magic on the records got lost because of that... what's the point?

The whole thing repeats itself over and over again. Once a genre gets hype, many others bastardize it, and people tend to use the same formula for a zillion tracks.

That's why I think my friends, that this decade will be very important. Mixed or not, the music will have to be performed by musicians and not played by dj's. With all my due respect for dj's, though. But their big money market has come to an end. Everyone inside the instrument industry is preparing for this moment. And the outside world slowly realizes that electronic music loses its identity by not having true performers.

Ableton Live was just the beginning. There's more coming up. We can be pretty sure of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo Sure, Eric, you've got a point. There's magic in some of those tracks. As well as there's none in many of them. The best tracks out of my 92-95 collection were not the easiest to mix together. I can give you a thousand examples. Many of those records didn't start with a beat, but with a melody, a hat in counter-beat, a vocal. You had to know it. I remember the age of love vinyl and its awful bass drum intro that was 4 bars minus a beat long!!! That's where I think we don't agree with each other, as I found out personally, very nice that we can mix records easily, but if most of the magic on the records got lost because of that... what's the point? The whole thing repeats itself over and over again. Once a genre gets hype, many others bastardize it, and people tend to use the same formula for a zillion tracks. That's why I think my friends, that this decade will be very important. Mixed or not, the music will have to be performed by musicians and not played by dj's. With all my due respect for dj's, though. But their big money market has come to an end. Everyone inside the instrument industry is preparing for this moment. And the outside world slowly realizes that electronic music loses its identity by not having true performers. Ableton Live was just the beginning. There's more coming up. We can be pretty sure of it.

i hate to play dumb here but if you cut out the dj's how will the producers get there music played? does this meen a new wave off producers who only play thier shit via live gigs,rather then conforming to the mp3/cd formate.

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik You just described me to a T. I despise the long and boring do-nothing/go-nowhere intros, particularly when it's just a kick and/or kick/off-beat bass.

Your post was very thought provoking and goes right to the heart of something that's been in my mind a while.

When I play tracks to my family / freinds who are'nt trance heads they want to know 'where's the beef'? They can't stand the long intros and tbh nor can I.

I've been 'playing along' ever since I saw that vid by The Thrillseekers where Hilstrap (?) said he disguards any tracks that don't have a long dj freindly intro.

I think I'm going to revolt now

If you want DJs to play your tracks, I recommend you give them a DJ friendly intro. give them two mixes if you want, one as a radio edit, but the intro is conventional and neccesary for any DJ who uses CDs.

I think that there are tracks made to be played in DJ sets and tracks made to be played stand alone, or as the centrepieces as DJ sets. A lot of the best tracks in sets are just dead boring on their own, but a set full of individual tracks is a horrible thing to listen to.

Tracks which are more set focussed are going to sound better in DJ sets, but tracks that are more album focussed are going to sound better when played by the producer themselves, preferably as live as possible.

Personally, I try to combine a bit of both in my DJ sets, but still haven't reached the point where I can play my own tracks live quite yet. I think with advances in computer power it'll become easier, and this'll be a good thing for the scene generally. I think dance music lost something when people stopped carting their 303s and 808s along with their records to gigs, which was a common way to play a set up until the late 90s from my understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by owien i hate to play dumb here but if you cut out the dj's how will the producers get there music played? does this meen a new wave off producers who only play thier shit via live gigs,rather then conforming to the mp3/cd formate.

And wouldn't that be a deeply shit situation given that you'd only ever hear the music of local artists, rather than hearing the latest tunes from around the world in your local club.

One day i am going to make a track that peaks after 10 minutes!

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips If you want DJs to play your tracks, I recommend you give them a DJ friendly intro. give them two mixes if you want, one as a radio edit, but the intro is conventional and neccesary for any DJ who uses CDs.

You can make a DJ friendly intro and still keep it interesting to the casual listener. It's not that hard.

quote:

Originally posted by owien i hate to play dumb here but if you cut out the dj's how will the producers get there music played? does this meen a new wave off producers who only play thier shit via live gigs,rather then conforming to the mp3/cd formate.

don't get me wrong. Maybe I didn't state it correctly. The era of the rockstar dj has come to an end. I don't believe that GOOD and talented dj's will disappear. I just think time has come for the people with real talent to come up and stand out, not a self-sufficient dj nor a bread-and-butter producer making his melodies only with a mouse into his edit grid.

Out of the thousands of millions of artists in this world, only the strongest and./or the the ones who dare will stand out. You'd better have both and stop being shy.

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo don't get me wrong. Maybe I didn't state it correctly. The era of the rockstar dj has come to an end. I don't believe that GOOD and talented dj's will disappear. I just think time has come for the people with real talent to come up and stand out, not a self-sufficient dj nor a bread-and-butter producer making his melodies only with a mouse into his edit grid. Out of the thousands of millions of artists in this world, only the strongest and./or the the ones who dare will stand out. You'd better have both and stop being shy.

Charles Darwin would of been proud of you!
Survival of the fittest.

But I started making melodies with my mouse until I bought a several hundred pound (�) Midi synthesizer keyboard lol

quote:

Originally posted by Lolo don't get me wrong. Maybe I didn't state it correctly. The era of the rockstar dj has come to an end. I don't believe that GOOD and talented dj's will disappear. I just think time has come for the people with real talent to come up and stand out, not a self-sufficient dj nor a bread-and-butter producer making his melodies only with a mouse into his edit grid. Out of the thousands of millions of artists in this world, only the strongest and./or the the ones who dare will stand out. You'd better have both and stop being shy.

it's funny because when ever i played any of your tracks it allways sounded like you made them how you wanted i myself have fallen into the trap off keeping up to speed because my early work was dissmissed for not being in keeping with the times.

so you have given me something to stop and think about

quote:

Originally posted by palm because no matter what gear u have the standard is still 16bit, and that only allows what it allows. and not to mention mp3, we have 1/4th of the avaliable info in todays "best" commercial format compared to CDs in the 90s. and thats the best. normal is half of that again, like 1/8th or 1/12th of the info compared to before. fuck mp3, compression and all that shit. goodnight.

Wow, I can't believe it was never clear to me. That explains EVERYTHING!!! The shit producers who went from bedroom DJ to reason producer to superhero famous PROducer in a month are actually incredible musicians. It's just the bitrate making them sound like shit!

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle One day i am going to make a track that peaks after 10 minutes!

one day I will make a track that will be very enjoyable silence. everyone will go nuts for it... and it will be overcompressed to shit. mark my words, all rules - whoosh! out the window. yup. I'm a visionary, I know. Feel free to worship me. Silently. Shhhhh! Can you hear it? Turn everything off! yes. That's the sound of me, being worshiped more than Tiesto or Armin combined and multiplied by PvD.

quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing one day I will make a track that will be very enjoyable silence. everyone will go nuts for it... and it will be overcompressed to shit. mark my words, all rules - whoosh! out the window. yup. I'm a visionary, I know. Feel free to worship me. Silently. Shhhhh! Can you hear it? Turn everything off! yes. That's the sound of me, being worshiped more than Tiesto or Armin combined and multiplied by PvD.

It's been done.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It's been done.

damn it. everyone keeps steeling my ideas! I knew it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery It's been done.

Agreed. I heard a story of a "blank score" where the composer just sat, live on stage, and didn't play a single note on his piano. He turned the pages of the score as if he were following it, but not a single note was played. When he stood, people applauded.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Agreed. I heard a story of a "blank score" where the composer just sat, live on stage, and didn't play a single note on his piano. He turned the pages of the score as if he were following it, but not a single note was played. When he stood, people applauded.

I'm guessing it was this.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Agreed. I heard a story of a "blank score" where the composer just sat, live on stage, and didn't play a single note on his piano. He turned the pages of the score as if he were following it, but not a single note was played. When he stood, people applauded.

John Cage, 4'33"

quote:

Originally posted by hexadecimal John Cage, 4'33"

We`re all impressed.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.