Knee jerk reaction to Ped deaths coming? Councillor wants 10 kph less speed limits

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-- Knee jerk reaction to Ped deaths coming? Councillor wants 10 kph less speed limits
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Posted by LKD on Jan-27-2010 22:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Orko
This I agree with. When ever I drive with my girlfriend, she is too timid honk the horn at idiots, drivers or pedestrians. So I make sure to lean over and press it. You have to make idiots feel like idiots.

hahhaa...reminds me of several times when pedestrians have walked ALONG the middle of the road in the burbs and i've honked and given them the finger telling them to wake the fuck up and use their brains.

each time's better than the last.

Posted by gummybear on Jan-27-2010 22:31:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ca...quGJTPP6aDxWtBQ

Posted by smuncky on Jan-27-2010 22:38:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
When even the car hating Toronto Star is writing a front page article about Jwalkers, you know its bad!

i regards to that star piece...

http://spacing.ca/wire/2010/01/27/t...-all-caps-fail/

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 22:40:

quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ca...quGJTPP6aDxWtBQ

gotta love the nanny state!

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 22:50:

quote:
Originally posted by smuncky
i regards to that star piece...

quote:
It is perfectly legal to cross the street mid-block in Toronto. The law says you can do it as long as you don�t interfere with traffic, and you�re not right beside a crosswalk.

this is what i thought too.. This is exactly how the peacock jwalker operates. And i think this is fine. But if a car has to slow down for you or you get hit, it should be all on you and no one else.

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-27-2010 22:56:

so apparantelly today one pedestrian got a ticket for crossing on Bay/Bloor at flashing red light
is this something entirely new? I was under the impression that we can cross as long as the red is still flashing (with a countdown from 10 to 0)

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:01:

quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
so apparantelly today one pedestrian got a ticket for crossing on Bay/Bloor at flashing red light
is this something entirely new? I was under the impression that we can cross as long as the red is still flashing (with a countdown from 10 to 0)

i think thats a case of a ticket happy cop. If this indeed is a ticketable offence and they are actually fining people for it, this is a new low even for our city/province.

I dont even think Singapore is that bad

PS: in singapore they had fences along the road so that u could only cross at crosswalks. But here is the catch. Major roads in Singapore were almost like expressways that go through the city but with controlled signaled intersections. Cars moved about 70 or 80 klicks. Pedestrians were kept on the sidewalk to move about freely and cars were kept on the road to move about freely. It seemed to work just fine. Businesses were abundant along the roads, there were lots of pedestrians. Transit was great. And cars moved!

Posted by smuncky on Jan-27-2010 23:03:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
this is what i thought too.. This is exactly how the peacock jwalker operates. And i think this is fine. But if a car has to slow down for you or you get hit, it should be all on you and no one else.

don't forget to read the original post.

http://spacing.ca/wire/2007/11/20/p...finitive-guide/

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-27-2010 23:07:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
i think thats a case of a ticket happy cop. If this indeed is a ticketable offence and they are actually fining people for it, this is a new low even for our city/province.

I dont even think Singapore is that bad

I can't find anything online so I think my co-worker saw it with her own eyes
she mentioned the light was at 2 seconds and flashing

ha, funny question - they stop me and want to issue a ticket, I have no ID on me, what is their next move? can they legal detain a jaywalker?

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:11:

And this part of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act is EXACTLY why pedestrians are so god damned arrogant in this province.

The onus is on the driver even though the pedestrian was jwalking and had no business being there in the first place.

Thats just plain BULLSHIT

quote:
But, because the stakes in a car-pedestrian collision are not even (the pedestrian will suffer far more) , the Act goes a step further. Section 193 (1) states:

When loss or damage is sustained by any person by reason of a motor vehicle on a highway, the onus of proof that the loss or damage did not arise through the negligence or improper conduct of the owner, driver, lessee or operator of the motor vehicle is upon the owner, driver, lessee or operator of the motor vehicle. (note � highway here means any road).

So, if a driver hits a pedestrian, it�s up to the driver to prove they weren�t doing anything wrong (note - I don�t have the expertise to be able to say if this provision is in practice as strong as the Netherland�s assumption of driver liability in collisions with pedestrians, which I referred to in a recent article. A reader wrote in to suggest that the Ontario provision is in fact similar in strength, which may possibly be the case. But another complication is the addition of more restrictive municipal by-laws, noted below. Also, the case law over the years would affect the application of this provision � my sense from a quick survey when I wrote the NOW article last year was that the driver is almost always assigned some liability, but the pedestrian may be assigned some liability too if they were not exercising due care).

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:11:

quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
I can't find anything online so I think my co-worker saw it with her own eyes
she mentioned the light was at 2 seconds and flashing

ha, funny question - they stop me and want to issue a ticket, I have no ID on me, what is their next move? can they legal detain a jaywalker?

If its a police officer yes..

If its a bylaw officer NO

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-27-2010 23:16:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
If its a police officer yes..

don't they need a warrant to detain me?

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:45:

quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
don't they need a warrant to detain me?

not if they saw you break the law

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-27-2010 23:52:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
not if they saw you break the law

yah but if this isn't even written anywhere + they dont arrest drivers for speeding, they just issue tickets
no ID = no ticket?
I'm just wondering for curiocity's sake - I don't have driver's ID, and sometimes I don't even have a health card on me
so technically I can tell them I'm Jane Doe and I live in Nunavut

Posted by Orko on Jan-27-2010 23:55:

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:58:

quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
yah but if this isn't even written anywhere + they dont arrest drivers for speeding, they just issue tickets
no ID = no ticket?
I'm just wondering for curiocity's sake - I don't have driver's ID, and sometimes I don't even have a health card on me
so technically I can tell them I'm Jane Doe and I live in Nunavut

if u dont have id they have your license plate. Also not having ID while driving is an actual offense and technically they can ask you to get out of your car and have it towed.

Again, if u lie to a police officer about your identity you can be arrested for obstruction of justice.

Either way if you break the law and refuse to cooperate they have the right to take you to the station to figure out your identity if they want to.

Not so for a bylaw officer. You can basically tell him to go to hell. I did this once when buddy tried to give me a ticket for giving out flyers. Just dont get into a car with plates or your house because then he can ID you.

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-27-2010 23:59:

quote:
Originally posted by Orko
You can even cross when the hand is solid.

if so thats just plain retarded... why even have the ped signals in the first place?

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-28-2010 00:06:

quote:
Originally posted by Orko
A flashing red light or flashing hand signal?

If it is a flashing red light, then it's a four way stop, and you continue like it is a stop sign.

If it is a flashing hand signal, it is cautionary, and you can walk. I have specifically asked police about this before. Hand/don't walk sign is not the law, only the green/red/yellow traffic light is the law. You can even cross when the hand is solid.

flashing red hand sign, yup..

Posted by DigiNut on Jan-28-2010 00:17:

quote:
Originally posted by Jayx1
if so thats just plain retarded... why even have the ped signals in the first place?

They're pretty useful to drivers as a warning that you have to floor it in order to get through the intersection on time...

Posted by MarkT on Jan-28-2010 00:28:

Posted by Orko on Jan-28-2010 00:52:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
that was my understanding too...but then explain how police were ticketing people, specifically for crossing on a yellow or a flashing hand signal?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...jaywalkers?bn=1

No clue. For me, I was crossing while the hand was flashing, and I had a number of motorists honk at me, as to say it was their right of way. I was sure that it was the lights that mattered so I walked into a police station in Mississauga and asked about this very thing.

They told me in absolute terms, I was right, but that didn't matter because it wasn't worth losing my life over. I agreed, but asked once again, if i was able to cross on a flashing or solid hand, and they responded yes.

If the cop was handing out tickets during a flashing hand, then that is complete BS. Or, the cops I asked were wrong. We just need to find the passage in the traffic act to set it straight. On a yellow, I can see the ticket as being valid.

Posted by smuncky on Jan-28-2010 01:00:

quote:
Originally posted by Orko
No clue. For me, I was crossing while the hand was flashing, and I had a number of motorists honk at me, as to say it was their right of way. I was sure that it was the lights that mattered so I walked into a police station in Mississauga and asked about this very thing.

They told me in absolute terms, I was right, but that didn't matter because it wasn't worth losing my life over. I agreed, but asked once again, if i was able to cross on a flashing or solid hand, and they responded yes.

If the cop was handing out tickets during a flashing hand, then that is complete BS. Or, the cops I asked were wrong. We just need to find the passage in the traffic act to set it straight. On a yellow, I can see the ticket as being valid.

check out section 144 subsections 22-28

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/st...8_e.htm#s144s21

quote:
Pedestrian crossing

(22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (22).

Pedestrian � green light

(23) Subject to subsections (24) and (27), a pedestrian approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular green indication or a straight-ahead green arrow indication and facing the indication may cross the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (23).

Pedestrian � stopping at flashing green light

(24) No pedestrian approaching a traffic control signal and facing a flashing circular green indication or a solid or a flashing left turn arrow indication in conjunction with a circular green indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (24).

Pedestrian � stopping at red or amber light

(25) No pedestrian approaching a traffic control signal and facing a red or amber indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (25).

Pedestrian control signals � walk

(26) Where pedestrian control signals are installed and show a �walk� indication, every pedestrian facing the indication may cross the roadway in the direction of the indication despite subsections (24) and (25). R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (26).

Pedestrian control signals � don�t walk

(27) No pedestrian approaching pedestrian control signals and facing a solid or flashing �don�t walk� indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (27).

Pedestrian right of way

(28) Every pedestrian who lawfully enters a roadway in order to cross may continue the crossing as quickly as reasonably possible despite a change in the indication he or she is facing and, for purposes of the crossing, has the right of way over vehicles. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (28).

Posted by Jayx1 on Jan-28-2010 01:47:

nice... so they are going to fine everything that literally moves in toronto..

how wonderful.

im so glad i live here!

Posted by FunkyCrew on Jan-28-2010 02:43:

quote:
Pedestrian � stopping at flashing green light

(24) No pedestrian approaching a traffic control signal and facing a flashing circular green indication or a solid or a flashing left turn arrow indication in conjunction with a circular green indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (24).

Pedestrian � stopping at red or amber light

(25) No pedestrian approaching a traffic control signal and facing a red or amber indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (25).

Pedestrian control signals � walk

(26) Where pedestrian control signals are installed and show a �walk� indication, every pedestrian facing the indication may cross the roadway in the direction of the indication despite subsections (24) and (25). R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (26).

Pedestrian control signals � don�t walk

(27) No pedestrian approaching pedestrian control signals and facing a solid or flashing �don�t walk� indication shall enter the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (27).

this still doesn't explain what to do when there is a flashing read countdown of 10 to 0 or 20 to 0 - that's neither yellow nor red really

I don't even see pedestrian crossing that turn amber - they're either green, red or flashing the 10 seconds to you

Posted by Endlesswave on Jan-28-2010 02:52:

quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
this still doesn't explain what to do when there is a flashing read countdown of 10 to 0 or 20 to 0 - that's neither yellow nor red really

I don't even see pedestrian crossing that turn amber - they're either green, red or flashing the 10 seconds to you

I'd say a countdown means you have until 0 until then walk away otherwise why have a countdown during a flashing red?

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