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quote:

Originally posted by bas Since forever?

I thought you were Canadian

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You're a wise man, Lira, but not today.

I don't think it's a matter of wisdom here, but I just don't see what's so special about supporting a football team. Or any team, for that matter.

My existence is irrelevant to them in any possible sense. If I died the day before the first match, they wouldn't mourn me and their performance would remain the same. Even though Kaká comes from my hometown, I've never seen the guy, and it's really bizarre that I'm allowed to take any credit (or pride) for his victories.

I understand you may feel some sort of bond through many traits you have in common with those that inhabit your country. One might say that, to be Brazilian you must speak Portuguese, eat rice and beans, love cheesebread, drink coffee, and be passionate about football (not to mention the fact that I need to live in Brazil to genuinely experience all that). But, do I need the whole package to root for a team and "feel the rush"?

If I saw a team playing really well, and I were surrounded by others supporting that very same team, wouldn't I feel a very similar rush? Do I really need to evoke images of my past and my ethnicity (?) to really "feel it"?

Bollocks. I lived with a Brazilian for three years and I never saw him eat cheesebread.

quote:

Originally posted by Renzo Bollocks. I lived with a Brazilian for three years and I never saw him eat cheesebread.

And I've never made rice and beans for myself either, and I don't usually drink coffee

(but I love cheesebread, OM NOM NOM!!!)

Nice! I like these.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar Rhetoric. Nothing more, nothing less.

Convincing rebuttal. There's a reason why Italy play defensively and Argentina play offensively, why Germany always win and England always disappoint, why Brazil produce great full-backs and Ghana produce great midfielders. Every nation has a style and a philosophy, and they don't come from nowhere and they don't change over-night.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I don't think it's a matter of wisdom here, but I just don't see what's so special about supporting a football team. Or any team, for that matter.

There is a British tradition of the glorious failure, which has been represented in our culture for centuries, from The Charge Of The Light Brigade to A Bridge Too Far. It's similar with the Spanish - there's a good reason their national team is nicknamed "The Armada". The glorious failure of the England team is part of our national identity, our stiff-upper-lip, our ability to persist in the face of disaster. It's the reason our TV commentators are always restrained when American ones scream wildly. It's about way, way more than just "taking pride" in whatever success we can accrue.

You've made a lot of posts recently stressing how our mindsets, attitudes and assumptions depend a great deal on our native cultures, whether it's wearing trainers to a wedding or putting your shitty toilet paper in a bin rather than flushing it. As such, you should be more aware than most that our identities are inextricable from the cultural surroundings that shaped us. The England team is a cultural product - only my country could have produced that team - and as a football fan it is part of me.

Would be cool if someone could chop a brazil jersey into my avatar...

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Convincing rebuttal.

It wasn't a rebuttal. Just as yours wasn't an argument, just nice words expressing a conviction of yours.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J There's a reason why Italy play defensively and Argentina play offensively, why Germany always win and England always disappoint, why Brazil produce great full-backs and Ghana produce great midfielders. Every nation has a style and a philosophy, and they don't come from nowhere and they don't change over-night.

Now you're changing the subject. The original question was 'Why support your own national team?' Yes, every nation has its own approach to playing football (and sports in general) but that doesn't mean that every single person in that nation has to agree with it and support it because they have to "stick with what [they're] dealt". You're implying that an Italian football fan who hates defensive football and inclines more to the Dutch style should cheer for catenaccio because, well...he HAS to. If anything, that sort of mentality is detrimental to the overall progress of their philosophy.

I'm with System-J, have some pride ffs

At least wait until your country crashes out before you jump ship

I'll show support for the Yanks. I live here, after all.

quote:

Originally posted by bas I'm with System-J, have some pride ffs At least wait until your country crashes out before you jump ship

In case you haven't noticed, Guatemala is ranked # 115 in the world.

I'm not jumping ship, I'm just cheering for a football style of play that I like and enjoy watching to prevail over the others. Another team that I like is Netherlands, for example.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar In case you haven't noticed, Guatemala is ranked # 115 in the world.

Exactly. No World Cup for you

quote:

Originally posted by bas Exactly. No World Cup for you

The big question here is why you have a signature that says "United" 3 times.

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Originally posted by Lira Well, you watch the match and support the team. If the team you support wins, good. There isn't much more to it

Lira your a gentleman and a scholar. kudos



btw I request...Ireland





















too early..?

quote:

Originally posted by woscar The big question here is why you have a signature that says "United" 3 times.

he needs a team to root for in the Champions League next season

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Originally posted by bas I'm with System-J, have some pride ffs At least wait until your country crashes out before you jump ship

How can I jump from a ship I was never on in the first place?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN How can I jump from a ship I was never on in the first place?

I wasn't referring to you Aren't you English anyway or is that just Stu?

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Originally posted by woscar The big question here is why you have a signature that says "United" 3 times.

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

quote:

Originally posted by woscar It wasn't a rebuttal. Just as yours wasn't an argument, just nice words expressing a conviction of yours.

Of course it was an argument. PKC suggested I was subscribing to "ruling class ideology" and I pointed out why I was doing something very different.

quote:

Now you're changing the subject. The original question was 'Why support your own national team?'

No it wasn't. PKC never asked that question. In fact he never asked me any questions. I'm talking about the difference between simple patriotism and pride in your cultural products, and you've wandered in, missed the point entirely, fabricated a question and then told me I'm changing the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by bas I wasn't referring to you Aren't you English anyway or is that just Stu?

I think stu has about 5 fathers to choose from, so he doesn�t really know!

my heritage is English/Scottish, but no im all Oz. but, I grew up on English football (ive never even seen an A-league game) and it just seemed natural to follow england, which ive done for almost 2 decades. Hell, I didn�t even know Australia had a national team til I was much older.

Fuck Australia!

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Of course it was an argument. PKC suggested I was subscribing to "ruling class ideology" and I pointed out why I was doing something very different. No it wasn't. PKC never asked that question. In fact he never asked me any questions. I'm talking about the difference between simple patriotism and pride in your cultural products, and you've wandered in, missed the point entirely, fabricated a question and then told me I'm changing the subject.

Lira asked the question, actually. And that's what I was referring to when I said you changed the subject.

Anyways, I would like to read your thoughts on what I pointed out on my last post.

Off-topic: who's that on your sig? I think it's Tiesto but I'm not sure.

quote:

Originally posted by woscar Lira asked the question, actually. And that's what I was referring to when I said you changed the subject.

I wasn't replying to Lira, though. I was replying to PKC.

quote:

Anyways, I would like to read your thoughts on what I pointed out on my last post.

My point was that national sides are the expression of the cultures that produced them, which is why they have particular styles. You don't have to like it, just like you don't have to like your family members. I'd much rather be a Brazil fan than an England fan, believe me, but club football is where you make your choices about what you like. The World Cup means nothing if you aren't supporting your own country. What meaning can victory have if you can pick up and drop the team you're following on a whim?

EDIT: My avatar is Chris Morris.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I wasn't replying to Lira, though. I was replying to PKC. My point was that national sides are the expression of the cultures that produced them, which is why they have particular styles. You don't have to like it, just like you don't have to like your family members. I'd much rather be a Brazil fan than an England fan, believe me, but club football is where you make your choices about what you like. The World Cup means nothing if you aren't supporting your own country. What meaning can victory have if you can pick up and drop the team you're following on a whim? EDIT: My avatar is Chris Morris.

Yeah, I get that and I will have to say I agree on that aspect. However, let me remind you that I come from a country with a very poor football philosophy, and an even worse performance. It's quite different for you folks that actually have a competitive squad. It would be a completely different situation if Guatemala actually made it to the World Cup for a change.

And I'm not picking a team "on a whim". Like I said, the Spanish side plays precisely the style of football that I enjoy most. Besides, my club is Barcelona and seeing Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol and Pique lift the cup would be nothing short of awesome.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The World Cup means nothing if you aren't supporting your own country. What meaning can victory have if you can pick up and drop the team you're following on a whim?

But how is it any different to choosing any other sporting team? OK, I was born in Canberra (hence my fanship of the raiders), but I�ve never lived in hawthorn, greenbay or Liverpool. I might not �get� the parochial experience, but that�s not what im after. I just want a team to follow in a sport I love. i also disagree that �choosing a side from another country� can necessarily equate to �picking a team on a whim�. I could no more stop following England than I could stop stu from flirting with me.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN But how is it any different to choosing any other sporting team? I might not �get� the parochial experience, but that�s not what im after.

A club is just a business, it can cease to exist, it can change its name, its location, everything. A team like Arsenal can switch from being a renowned defensive side to an attacking side at the switch of a manager. The players can come from anywhere. Some clubs represent the distinctive culture of their region, which is why Barcelona are "More Than A Club" and why any Barca fan who is not a Catalan is not "getting" the full experience.

It's a matter of identity. England are part of my identity. They're a team you cheer for entertainment.

Very interesting debate, from an anthropological perspective.

Are your sentiments widely held in England, System_J, or is your axiom/fan ethos more your own individual preference?

Fuck, if the England team was on a plane with the Polish government...

...

I digress.

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