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Originally posted by Mad for Brad You know what the sad part is, if you weren't such a dick, and showed some character, there are people here that could and would help you. Operation Market garden should be your new nickname. Talk about bridge burning.

Why would I want to build bridges with ungrounded trolls that mislead people?

I do well to build bridges with good quality people who would not take up the retarded argument some of you guys have taken up here and other debates. And in this one, telling people that they dont need to gain knowledge, develop a craft, learn the ins and outs, that would help them not only get a gig at a studio, but also help them make better sounding productions of their own. An engineering degree on real equipment would put you ahead of most EDM producers, showing up at a studio with nothing wont put you ahead of anyone after you get turned down.

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Originally posted by Stephen Wiley Be glad I'm not a moderator. There are a lot of people who wouldn't be posting on this forum.

Why? I think most people enjoy the occasional raucous argument and rowdy back and forth. I know I do. It sucks the life out of a place if you try and force everyone to be polite.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Kismet7 wins another thread. Flawless victory!

Bookmarking this thread for future reference lol.

The typical TA troll roundup, failed arguments, out of touch with reality, fairytales for arguments, but definately 55 WPM folks.

Whoever hires the trolls that regularly work this forum, really is a major idiot, he is likely hiring people just like himself, who carry his traits.

You guys get paid to post on this forum right? There is no other explanation for some of the arguments and views you guys take up. What a shitty soulless job.

there is a sad sort of pleasure in dealing with complete morons. Sort of like a visit to the zoo. I can't deny his complete lack of insight and godlike assurance makes me chuckle. Kind of reminds me that no matter how bad I think my issues are , I could be alot worse.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 And in this one, telling people that they dont need to gain knowledge, develop a craft, learn the ins and outs, that would help them not only get a gig at a studio, but also help them make better sounding productions of their own. An engineering degree on real equipment would put you ahead of most EDM producers, showing up at a studio with nothing wont put you ahead of anyone after you get turned down.

I have helped countless people get ahead in the industry, which is why the info I'm giving here is not to make you fell like shit for getting a degree, but to give you a real world experience of how it really is in the studio world.

A degree will not help you get a foot in the door any more than a guy without who demonstates passion.

It's just the way it is. I'm sorry but this is really how it is. I've seen it and been there and watched countless other people try.

So don't derail this thread - if you want to know what gets a foot in the door, its a basic understanding and determination. period.

Your demeanor and ability to learn is way more important than anything else.

yeah you've got to know the basics but that's it.

A year of 50 hours plus weeks in audio engineering school, in front of real desks and equipment, did not do a thing to prepare me for real studio work - the real thing is way more intense, far more about your people skills than about technical expertise, and even when the technical is needed it won't matter as it's on the latest state of the art equipment (which you won't find in 99% of all schools).

I'm done, anything else and I know you're just trolling becuase I am the industry, and so is brad and we're both telling you it is no uncertain terms (shit, we even work on different coasts and its the same story).

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Originally posted by DJ RANN A degree will not help you get a foot in the door any more than a guy without who demonstates passion.

This is where your reasoning falls apart. A person getting a degree can easily demonstrate passion. So not only can they have passion, but they also have an applicable education. Which gives them the edge in not only getting a gig at a studio, but also helps them with their own personal endeavours. Are you saying people who dont have a degree are the only passionate ones? lol. If anything, someone who is putting their money and time into getting a degree, they are more apt to be passionate about the studio craft than the average person without it. Its like saying a Chef that goes to Chef school would not get a job in a kitchen, but some kid without a culinary education would simply because of their passion. The statistics would be in the favor of the chef with technique and other skills developed at the culinary school. I'm not trying to make you look dumb either, i'm just saying what you are saying is unreasonable for the average person here, who would benefit greatly from learning sound engineering, in a time where sound design has superceded the musical values of many popular genres of music.

Like fuck am I going to read all this... get a room.

To the thread starter: Take piano lessons, regardless if it will help you produce better EDM it will surely be fun.

I've been thinking of getting an audio technician degree just to get out of this cycle of dayjobs and have more time for producing, since the thing that would replace my dayjob would be much related to making my own music.

I'd say quit thinking of jobs. Think of developing yourself. Even with proper education and the best papers from your class, the chances you'll be working at your dreamjob soon after that are indeed slim.

At least I've always thought I can work as a fucking plumber if it pays me (and excuse me if there really are some plumbers around), I'll dedicate my own time to music. Getting a job in this business isn't really that important to me (out of reach also).

well this thread certainly got interesting

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Originally posted by Kismet7 Ok now concert halls = studio. The case changes again. Good thing you nullified your own argument with what I bolded.

I was just trying to prove a point, I used my case as an example. I still do not think you understand what we are trying to tell you. Someone who is very passionate and has willingness to learn has a better chance of succeeding than a person who has passion and willingness but has a degree in audio engineering. Unless you go to a renowned school like mad4brad said. There are only handfuls of those types of schools.

EDIT: and just because you went to school for audio engineering does not necessarily make you passionate about it. There are many other reasons why people do so, because they think they like it, parents pay for it, (so who cares if they dont put it to good use, not their money) etc. I lived with a roommate for just a little over a year and he went to university for archaeology for 4 years and after he was done, he wanted to get into culinary. And he did without going to school, he started working at a chain restaurant and over a year or 2 he worked himself up to higher restaurants. He started as prep and now is a sous chef. School doesn't always matter.

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Originally posted by Ravist I still do not think you understand what we are trying to tell you.

He fully does understand everything you guys are telling him. Years before he posted in this thread, he was keenly aware of the industry practices. Only now, where he senses a nebulous murky area where some common disagreement is still plausible (well, he wouldn't argue that the sky isn't blue), can he continue to inject his continually ignorant intransigence.

Well, I can say for certain that starting from the ground up is the better way to go. I do have an audio degree, but my audio degree was not $20,000 per semester, but the program that I took gets a lot of respect from the FCC (Who have recently given them TV broadcasting licensing I think), and Disney (Who gave them an SSL console)...

That said, since I'm trying to do Foley and location sound, I have been working as a PA, aka the unpaid bottom of the rung intern that does what it's told. The experience there is far more valuable, as I've learned stuff outside of my field of interest...Not to mention the networking is awesome. Have a few people offering me work now.

So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio.

These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience.

@msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills.

Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners.

Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

signal flow is easily the most important thing there is to know. signal flow and having a great visual memory of how the studios patch bay works. especially if you get far enough to be an assistant engineering, knowing what you're working with and being on top of your game are the most beneficial to climbing higher and higher up the ladder.

i had to know every piece of outboard gear there was when i was at red barn studios last weekend. you can learn everything by reading pdf's and books, without going to a school, but i always preferred hands on learning to just reading words

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Originally posted by DJ RANN So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio. These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience. @msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills. Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners. Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

Pretty much.

For those of you that are just interested in working with audio, not specifically music, you're better off working on sets. Each set has a different crew most of the time, so you're making yourself known to a good 25 people each time, as opposed to putting your bets on five studio engineers and hoping for the best.

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Originally posted by jupiterone signal flow is easily the most important thing there is to know. signal flow and having a great visual memory of how the studios patch bay works. especially if you get far enough to be an assistant engineering, knowing what you're working with and being on top of your game are the most beneficial to climbing higher and higher up the ladder. i had to know every piece of outboard gear there was when i was at red barn studios last weekend. you can learn everything by reading pdf's and books, without going to a school, but i always preferred hands on learning to just reading words

Very true - but be careful about the patch bay thing, don't just rely on knowing or being really comfortable with patchbays - nearly every studio that does score work (including you know where ) uses desks that have digital (computer based) patch bays so the entire thing is done by naming and patching in a computer, which then has to correspond to all the tie lines going I/O for the studio kit.

Even though the theory is the same, it can get really complicated on a 264 channel desk with for 4 x fully maxed out protools HD rigs and studio literally packed with mics.

Any that's why I say know your signal flow in your head, because you'll have to both combine physical patching and computer based patching. This is one of the main tasks given to the assistant engineer and you have to do it every day.

school = waste of time.

depends for what. Learning is never a waste of time. Waste of money ? That all depends on the person and how they apply it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio. These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience. @msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills. Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners. Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

3 people vs X amount of people with unclouded logical thinking ability. Winner the latter.

The only way what you and the 2 other people are saying would be reasonable is if we changed the case to "Is it better to get a studio education through a school, or through applying at a studio and starting as a runner boy". But the case was actually based on, "who would have a better chance at landing an engineering gig at a well equipped studio...a person without an education or someone with an education." If the question was indeed which is the better route to being a sound engineer? Then i'd say its 50/50, for some people a runner boy beginning would be great, and some doing a recording school would be great way towards being a sound engineer.

Who says that they both cannot be hired? It's free work. Almost no one who wishes to be an audio engineer, boom operator, location mixer, or any of that will start where they want to, even with their fancy music school certificate. They will be a runner and work from there. This industry has always been like this and will be for a very long time.

If I were a studio owner I would not mind giving either one a shot, and going from there. Given what I have heard, I'd probably boot the trained one because he or she would be a snob with a sense of entitlement.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 3 people vs X amount of people with unclouded logical thinking ability. Winner the latter. The only way what you and the 2 other people are saying would be reasonable is if we changed the case to "Is it better to get a studio education through a school, or through applying at a studio and starting as a runner boy". But the case was actually based on, "who would have a better chance at landing an engineering gig at a well equipped studio...a person without an education or someone with an education." If the question was indeed which is the better route to being a sound engineer? Then i'd say its 50/50, for some people a runner boy beginning would be great, and some doing a recording school would be great way towards being a sound engineer.

No I'm(and they are) not saying that - don't twist it now.

I have an audio engineering education, and I wouldn't swap it for anything -it taught me all the theory and there are many TA's that I have encouraged to go to audio engineering schools like the on I attended.

What we have been saying all along is that a degree will not get you a job in a studio any faster or better than someone with a basic understanding (even self taught) of the principles.

You're going to start at the bottom regardless or your level of education - that's how it is - they are not going to take a chance on you just because you sat through a degree program. The problem with your logic is that you are not taking the professional context in to account:

So many pro engineers learnt on the job rather than in a school (both in the past and present) that they do not hold some higher level of respect for someone that has a degree in Audio engineering. They just don't care - it's about the qualities of the person, especially how practically smart they are - to people like that academic achievements are meaningless.

In a lot of cases I have witnessed, the problem has been made worse by universities jumping on the commercial bandwagon, offering degrees to people to cash in on the success of audio engineering courses offered by small private institutions.

In many cases they are suspicious of people because their mindset is "why didn't you learn it like everyone else, by either going to one of the certificate program schools that only take a few months or a year (or so) or learning is job through starting at the bottom, as I did?".

And here is another problem with degrees in audio engineering.

My school was one year long, 40+ hours per week studying no less than 12 subjects at any one time was the absolute minimum, and this doesn't even take in to account the studio time and off site engineering we had to put in for coursework.

Nearly ever music technologist degree candidate I've ever known does maybe 10-15 hours a week in class (especially during the first year or two) and it only really gets intense in the last year.

Don't get me wrong, there's been times I WISH I had done a degree (for visa related reasons) but not for my profession and not for working in studios period.

You have to realize that the first few months working at a studio as a runner gives you ample opportunity to get your knowledge of the subject matter to the level it needs to be if you get the chance to engineer. You just need to know the basics and have your head screwed on and be seriously eager.

End of story.

I'm not trying to make you feel stupid for doing a degree, it will help you later in your career and you may learn faster once at higher levels of the job, but it's not going to make you brew a better cup of tea or make the studio manager pick you over the guy who has a certificate from a local school and came better presented at the interview.

same with orchestrators,

they all have master degrees but they didn't get the job with the degree. Anyone applying to be an orchestrator has a master degree in composition somewhere so it isn't really something that makes you standout. It is expected. Orchestrators don't typically have to go thru the same bs as engineers as the actual job of orchestrating is considered the bitch work(most are aspiring composers) and there are less people able to do it and it usually takes an investment of 20 years of training just to be sort of ok at it. The thing they test is your ability to adapt and work with little sleep where your deadline is usually a day or sometimes an hour or even less.

My first 12 months were insane. I developed a nasty xanax habit for the stress and took adderall for the attention. It was really really hard to keep up with the pace. I wouldn't say what I was doing was hard but rather the pace and expectations can really make you crack. I've been in situations where a certain orchestration wasn't working. The head orchestrator told me to fix it in time so that after the break, it would be ready. The worst part was that the director just said it didn't sound right. No real explanation as to why it isn't working so you just change things hoping it was just a particular instrument he didn't like at a particular spot. You don't have time to proof it well, you can't let the session go into overtime as then the contractor starts to bitch and imagine if the producer is in the actual booth and the feeling you might get knowing everybody is waiting for you. And in the back of your head, you know that if you fuck up, you are done.

I considered many times to just forget it as I was close many times to the brink of a mental breakdown. Tough skin really does count more at the beginning. Kismet7 talks about fairy tales but the only fairy tale I have seen in this thread is his view on how things work. I would say my ability to remain disciplined was just as important as my education. Now imagine if you are starting as a runner where you aren't doing anything audio related. Your nerves are all they are testing.

I've seen few young runners that seemed to be on some sort of stimulant their pupils dilated on the brink of suicide. In a way it is like bootcamp. lol it is kinda sad actually. There is an upside. The first major release I worked on and told my parents I had a hand in it. They kinda stopped viewing me as some failure compared to my doctor sister and lawyer brother.

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