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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by ziptnf What? That's not always the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war There have been several wars fought due entirely to religion. I agree that politics influences most violence, but the violent religious extremists don't view their hate as political.

I'll grant you the Crusades but today, it's more complex than religious differences.

They certainly message it that way as a means of invoking entitlement and justification, but again, the religious component of such terrorism is secondary to its root causes.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard DING DING DING! Politics is the motive, not faith.

YOU LIE, RELIGION BLOWS!

TERRORISTS BLOW PEOPLE UP AND PRIESTS BLOW KIDS!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Lira YOU LIE, RELIGION BLOWS! TERRORISTS BLOW PEOPLE UP AND PRIESTS BLOW KIDS!

Oh, dear. You've finally cracked and become militant.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Oh, dear. You've finally cracked and become militant.

Actually, I was waiting for someone to correct me and say that it's the kids who in fact blow the priests

SAVE RELIGION, KILL THE KIDS!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Lira SAVE RELIGION, KILL THE KIDS!!!

Do it for the children!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by ziptnf What? That's not always the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war There have been several wars fought due entirely to religion. I agree that politics influences most violence, but the violent religious extremists don't view their hate as political.

I was referring to the present condition of Islamist terrorism.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Esiotrat Moderate, reasonable Muslims don't do that, extremist wackjobs do. If it wasn't for religion, they would still find a reason to kill you. (re: what Eddie said)

You're kind of proving my point there. Moderate people dont do it, extremists do. Those who take their faith too far, their religion too seriously do the killings. That is not politics, that is genuine belief that that they are right, that they are just and that with god on their side they can do whatever they want because in their sick little mind, twisted by religious dogma they are the truly good ones. Its not politics when everything you are, everything you did, will ever do or want to do is done for the sake of a god. Its not politics when casualties dont matter because they are godless heathens, despised not because of their politics, but their different religious beliefs or lack thereof. It is not politics, its religion, its faith, its the institutionalised hatred for everyone and everything that does not conform to the exact ideas and values of your version of the the ancient holly books that has been fuelling conflicts for generations. To defend it is wrong, to try to downplay it as a cause is inexcusable and only adding to the problem.

And what other reason would a religious extremist who by some act of god suddenly wasn't a religious extremist any more have to kill me if not my blatant atheism? The way i dress? The football team i root for (doesn't count if he is british, where that is a valid excuse). Politics? Perhaps, but Kevin hasn't shot me or blown himself up to kill me yet, and he and I disagree on almost everything regarding politics. You're much less likely to actually resort to violence unless a divine voice tells you that its ok since he's not with with him so the guy doesn't matter. This hypothetical religious extremists who is not any more, unless the person was some kind of a psychopath could at least be reasoned with. You cant reason with someone who thinks he has a god given right to something or is acting on gods orders.


Note that im not talking only about islam here.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers without religion we would have anarchy.

That's bullshit.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers have u seen how dogs without a charismatic and strict owner act?

You're talking about a cult, not religion.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers have u seen how dogs without a charismatic, loving and strict owner act?

You know that most societies have things called "governments", right? Religion doesn't dictate and regulate the actions of members living in those societies. People in the modern age use religion as a crutch to help them explain why the world works the way it does, it doesn't act as an "owner" to their entire functional lifestyle, unless of course, they are a religious extremist.

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Originally posted by Kenny Rogers argue with me damnit

That should be your user title.

Why did the baker have smelly hands?

Because he kneaded a poo.

Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Znack A few world news items from the last couple of days; 15 12.2010 (Chahbahar, Iran) - Forty-one Shias are blasted to death in their own mosque by a Sunni suicide bomber. 15.12.2010 (Nalchik, Russia) - A moderate cleric is shot in front of his home for 'resisting religious extremism.' 15 12.2010.(Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Three children are disassembled by fundamentalists, who hide a bomb on a bicycle. 14.12.2010 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Sectarian rivals murder three more Shia pilgrims with a roadside bomb. 14 12.2010 (Diyala, Iraq) - Two Shia pilgrims are blown to bits by Sunni bombers. 14.12.2010 (Peshawar, Pakistan) - Sunnis attack an 'unIslamic' shrine and shoot three Sufi infidels to death. I have to say, they look pretty terrifying and violent to me, but I�m probably not looking at the poor oppressed perpetrators of these events with a sufficiently sympathetic eye.

No shit; the point is that there's no demonstrable increase, not that terrorism doesn't exist. I could find plenty of murders in the past few days by searching Google news, but there's a clear long-term downward trend in homicide rates.

Maybe if you came out from underneath your bed sheets once in a while and experienced the real world you'd grasp the difference.

Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Arbiter Let's get a couple of things straight, son: 1. There is no "rise of terrorism and violence." Isolated incidents of terrorism have been going on for decades, and there is no evidence of any substantial upward trend in the number or severity of such incidents. On the other hand, there is a clear trend in worldwide violence: a downward one. So much for the rise of terrorism and violence.

Last person I expected to have their head in the sand...





http://pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/the...iew-each-other/


I would say there's a problem in Nigeria... Quoth Mark Steyn: "You don�t have to subscribe to the view that every Muslim is a jihadist nutcake eager to hijack a 747 and head for the nearest tall building to acknowledge that at the very minimum these population trends put a large question mark over the future."




55% of Arabs surveyed believe offensive words or actions justify violence:

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A YOUGOV poll commissioned by the Doha Debates has concluded that nearly one-third of all Arabs believe that Saudi Arabia is at greater risk from religious extremism than any other country in the world. The poll adds weight to the vote at a session of the Doha Debates held on March 3 in Doha, where the motion �This house believes that Muslims are failing to combat extremism�, was carried by more than 70% of the audience. In the YouGov survey, nearly half of all Arabs in the Gulf, Levant and North Africa said they have met someone who holds extreme religious views. Asked under what conditions violence is permissible, more than 60% cited Western interference in a Muslim country, while 55% said offensive words or behaviour was a trigger.

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topi...36&parent_id=16




From Reuters: One in 10 Indonesian Muslims back violent jihad. (for those of you scoring at home, that's about 22,000,000 people).

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JAKARTA, Oct 15 (Reuters) - Around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims support jihad and justify bomb attacks on Indonesia's tourist island of Bali as defending the faith, a survey released on Sunday showed. Indonesia is the world's fourth most populous country, with 220 million people, 85 percent of whom follow Islam, giving the Asian archipelago the largest Muslim population of any nation in the world. "Jihad that has been understood partially and practised with violence is justified by around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims," the Indonesian Survey Institute said in a statement. "They approved the bombings conducted ... in Bali with the excuse of defending Islam," it added, saying the percentage of such support "is very significant".

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/o...ihad-group.html




From Pew Reporting: Millions of Muslims believe that violence against civilian targets in the name of Islam can be justified: http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/253.pdf




25% of Younger US Muslims Approve of Suicide Bombings:

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One in four younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, though most Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject the tactic and are critical of Islamic extremism and al-Qaida, a poll says.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation...americans_N.htm

Cleverly, the article focuses on the fact that "the majority" of them reject it- but 25% approving of suicide bombings is a tad high, wouldn't you say?




Great Britain currently looking at 4000 terrorism suspects:

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Up to 4,000 terrorism suspects and their supporters are active in Britain, the former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Stevens said yesterday. Lord Stevens said the security service MI5 had recently suggested a figure of 2,000 but the true number was "probably nearer 4,000". Police and MI5 were "still too underfunded and undermanned to cope with the task they face in the decades to come. And that's how long this will last," he said. The "infection" had spread out from "hot spots" such as Luton, the West Midlands and Finsbury Park in London and those involved in the fertiliser bomb plot case which finished this week were "ordinary and British". Lord Stevens also gave warning that al-Qa'eda-linked extremists were already trying to infiltrate the police and the security services and that dozens had already been weeded out.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ects-in-UK.html



But uh, yeah there's just a few of 'em out there... no trends. Can't be blaming one of the world's "great religions" (according to who?) on just a few whackjobs!

Please refer to every piece of dialogue strewn throughout this shit-hole of a thread to find some rather clear delineations between causation and correlation and how both concepts relate to Islam and Terror.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Arbiter No shit; the point is that there's no demonstrable increase, not that terrorism doesn't exist. I could find plenty of murders in the past few days by searching Google news, but there's a clear long-term downward trend in homicide rates. Maybe if you came out from underneath your bed sheets once in a while and experienced the real world you'd grasp the difference.

Im not necessarily disagreeing with you (I haven�t seen the data) but homicides aren�t the same thing as terrorist acts. No, I don�t want this to devolve into a pointless attempt to codify what terrorism is, it�s like pornography. I know it when I see it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Im not necessarily disagreeing with you (I haven�t seen the data) but homicides aren�t the same thing as terrorist acts. No, I don�t want this to devolve into a pointless attempt to codify what terrorism is, it�s like pornography. I know it when I see it.

Sure could go for some lesbian bondage terrorism, if you know what I mean.

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Originally posted by Banora Ugh, you embarrass Denmark. I bet you're the kind of person who supports that horrible Pia woman, too, aren't you?

+1

Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by The17sss Last person I expected to have their head in the sand... http://pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/the...iew-each-other/

How are those links supposed to relate to Arbiter's (true) observation?

There is no "rise in terrorism." But there is a rise in media attention to it, and more obvious friction between Muslim immigrants and Europeans because of their recent higher numbers.

Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by The17sss (snip)

I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept for people, but "there is no rise of terrorism" is not the same thing as "there is no terrorism." There's plenty. Has been for centuries. It's not a new phenomenon, and there's no data suggesting it's getting any more common, at least on a global level. I'm sure there are some regions where terrorism is way up; on the other hand, there are regions where there has been a marked decline in terrorism.

There is terrorism. It's bad. We should go after it a lot more aggressively than we are now. But none of that has anything to do with whether or not terrorism is actually increasing.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Im not necessarily disagreeing with you (I haven�t seen the data) but homicides aren�t the same thing as terrorist acts. No, I don�t want this to devolve into a pointless attempt to codify what terrorism is, it�s like pornography. I know it when I see it.

Sheesh. It's called an analogy. I guess this just goes to show that there's nothing like a little fear-mongering to turn otherwise right thinking people into a pack of slavering neanderthals.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Znack ..and Egypt..

Islamic terrorist groups have been almost non-existent here since the government practically eradicated them in the late 1990s (which is one thing our president doesn't get enough credit for). Are you just listing random Middle-Eastern countries?

Islamic fundamentalism has been on the rise ever since though. The ****s are everywhere now, spreading their Saudi-imported, West-hating, homophobic, women-degrading, anti-Semitic bullshit in the streets, the media, everywhere.

Even people who aren't really religious now feel guilty all the time for the stupidest shit, like having a bf/gf (even if they manage to never have sex), drinking a few beers...etc. I'm talking about good people who have never caused anyone any harm. I stop feeling bad for them though as soon as they start lecturing me about how I should believe in a god who, they themselves, refuse to respect enough to listen to.
/rant

Anyway, MrJiveBoJingles, EddieZilker, Arbiter: I agree that politics definitely is the reason behind probably 99.99% of all terrorist acts committed in the name of religion (in this case, Islam), but religion is (and always has been) an easy tool for political leaders to get a load of people all hyped up and do something serving a specific political agenda. I personally believe this to be the reason why religion still exists.

Some of the fairytales in religious books are fun/good/have moral depth, but there are also some that are very outdated and harmful to modern society. The vast majority of religious followers, sadly, do not know the difference, and even worse; believe in both types of fairytales literally. So when an Imam says that it is haram to vote for a Christian running for parliament, for example, the Muslim opponent automatically gets a shitload of votes. And whether the Quran actually does say that it is haram is irrelevant, the end result is that the vast majority (and I do not use the term lightly) believes the Imam because he "definitely knows more about religion than I do".




C0r version:
- Znack is probably talking out of his ass
- FML
- Politics uses religion only because religion is made in a way that allows it to be used by politics
- Add the fact that most of it is very bad for society
-
- Profit??

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Arbiter Sheesh. It's called an analogy. I guess this just goes to show that there's nothing like a little fear-mongering to turn otherwise right thinking people into a pack of slavering neanderthals.

Yeah, I read that wrong.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by EddieZilker You seem to be ignoring the fact that if you took away the religion, you'd still be left with the motivations for violence.

Really? And they are?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam is a Religion of Peace?

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Originally posted by Znack Really? And they are?

http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files...f_Terrorism.pdf

That should get you started.

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