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Originally posted by Znack American mass murder in Iraq

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... 12-15 people were killed...

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Originally posted by d-miurge

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I am not saying either is good, but the fact that whiny little fucks like you either get a kick out of trolling for shit or are legitimately disturbed by things like this makes me really fucking sad for our generation. God forbid we ever have to fight in another real war...

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Originally posted by Saka Just for the sake of saying things, how immature. How about we don't discuss it. Seems a more intelligent thing to do. And if you believe we came from cavemen, we don't want to become like 'them' again do we? Lets be nice we both might actually like it.

take it to the god thread then, theres ample information in there.

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Originally posted by Saka And if you believe we came from cavemen, we don't want to become like 'them' again do we?

As opposed to what? Aliens?

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Originally posted by Arbiter As opposed to what? Aliens?

Worse, dust.

Edit: but then, is that really worse? Maybe it was dust that was modified by the elements to become the first self-replicating cell... Ah fuck it, God did it!

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Originally posted by Arbiter Why am I joining in?

Good point, why?

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden had casualty counts which far outweighed this one incident precisely because we have taken steps to reduce collateral damage. Bombs and artillery shells have been developed to follow specific trajectories and have mitigated splash radii. If you want to win an argument, one could be made that Iraq was completely unnecessary, was started with an inadequate strategy, and has yielded a significant number of civilian casualties precisely because of that. You would have to include civilians who died as a direct result of Iraq's insurgency, but what was achieved in Iraq was unacceptable. Still, when you consider the firebombings of Japanese cities in WWII, don't include the nuclear bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, you'll find a civilian body count which utterly dwarfs anything which has occurred as a result of 21st Century military action. The firebombing of Tokyo, alone, matches the current body count at IBC.org. Source: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0310-08.htm http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ Your suggestion that we should be more careful is ludicrous in the face of the rather staggering statistics which prove that we have been.

And again, so because once something worse happened, one can not complain about this?

Imagine you get a craftsman to build you a house. You pay and you are happy, but after a week, one wall crashes down. You are obviously angry and asks the craftsman to correct his work, but he only says that he once knew a craftsman who made a house where two walls collapsed soon after. So you have no reason to be angry, because he has been more careful than him.

That is nonsense. You can not shirk from blame and responsibility, just because someone has done something worse.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I am not saying either is good, but the fact that whiny little fucks like you either get a kick out of trolling for shit or are legitimately disturbed by things like this makes me really fucking sad for our generation. God forbid we ever have to fight in another real war...

You are saddened that one can be disturbed by unnecessary killing of innocent people?

Fair enough. You are certainly allowed that position.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: American mass murder in Iraq

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Originally posted by Znack A completely irrelevant lie. It has nothing to do with what i said, and is completely false. I have repeatedly stated that i know perfectly well innocent people die in war. Time and again i have repeated it, just to see you repeating the same dishonest assertion in the post after. I must assume you believe that if you repeat the lie enough, I will eventually forget what i said - but unfortunately i have to disappoint you. To focus on what I actually wrote, you still haven't come around the fact that most people feel or felt anger over Hitler's deeds during the Second World War. You have two options: Either you think all these people are retarded, because Hitler did something that rightfully can provoke anger - or you must pull back your argument.

lol, yea, I'm trying to indoctrinate you by repeating lies......seriously? You haven't stated anything but the obvious. Who doesn't think Hitler was a genocidal megalomaniac dictator? What's your point beyond simply stated the obvious?

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Lie. I at no time wrote that my anger is primarily directed at the pilots, and I've even later clarified what I meant several times. Naturally, I think the helicopter pilots are acting deeply immoral by not only shooting innocent people, but even to laugh about it - but I put very strong emphasis on the fact that it is the military's denial of the affairs, I am indignant about. It says clearly in the first post: "The military has always claimed that everything went as it should and that those who were killed opened fire on the helicopters.." "Reuters asked for an investigation (...) but was ignored by the military." "And even worse is when the military refuses to admit mistakes" Stick to the truth.

The truth? Lol. What are you, some spiritual leader? News flash, the military didn't decide to invade Iraq, it was the government of George W. Bush.

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More childish ad-hominem attacks, which you obviously can not substantiate. A soldiers job is to kill if they (need) to. It is not to go slaughtering around, and very often their job is just to be dangerous, so the enemy does not attack. Again, keep from smearing, keep to the truth and drop the condescendence, especially when you're wrong.

Right, I'm supposed to keep my cool when you're calling me a liar in almost every one of your posts. Get real. On a fundamental level, a soldier's job isn't to be the police, be humanitarian aid workers, or be nice. Their most basic job is to go to war. There is no distinction between civilians and soldiers in a war. So why are you trying to apply such a distinction where there is none. In war, everyone dies, civilians most especially. Why is that the helicopter pilots fault? Did he show the best judgment? Probably not. But that's war.

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Well, if there is no violence, then that is by definition, not war, but beyond the semantics it's happened plenty of times in history. Countries have often surrendered just because the attacking country were stronger and they knew they couldn't stand a chance. Here it is not even a question of ones Position. You are factually wrong.

Then that obviously isn't a war, is it? lol That's just one country surrendering without a fight. You talk about me being "factually wrong", when you don't even have your definition of what a war is correct.

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Well you admit it. Then dont do it, right?

You can read whatever you want to into my words. I really don't give a fuck.

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I'm not. I think it is reprehensible when innocents people die, when its not inevitable. If you still haven't got that point, I really do not know how to explain it to you.

Amazing you actually think in war, innocent people dying is at all, "not inevitable". Defies logic.

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I have just shown that it does, and besides, its irrelevant, because i later explained it to you.

Well at least we agree on something.

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Lies again. I have several times repeated, its not like that. You even pointed out yourself that I admit there may be unavoidable accidents, therefore i can only conclude that this is a premeditated lie.

Premeditated lie? LOL, wtf?! Get a grip.

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That makes no sense. A minimum is by definition the lowest attainable. If that is impossible, its not a minimum.

The US supposedly aspires to keeping "collateral damage" to a minimum, and they do probably better than any other military. But the fact of the matter is, no matter how precise your missiles are, no matter how much care you put into it, in a full scale war, many people are going to die regardless. Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed even though the US has all these precision guided weapons and shit. So wtf is the point is crying foul when something goes wrong in a war. What do you expect? No one gets killed but when they do, you got to punish the soldiers who did it!? Ok, fine, if they did something agregious, then court marshal them or something, but come one, let's get real. The helicopter pilots are nothing but pawns. They received authorization to attack from up high, and not even mentioning the fact that it was the government sending them there in the first place.

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Agreed. Do I really have to repeat myself again?

Yes, keep repeating yourself.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: American mass murder in Iraq

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin You haven't stated anything but the obvious. Who doesn't think Hitler was a genocidal megalomaniac dictator?

I at no time wrote anything like that, because it is not relevant. Try to read what it says, then maybe you'll see the point.

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The truth? Lol. What are you, some spiritual leader?

Yes, I am a spiritual leader. It is only spiritual leaders, who prefer not to be lied to and about in a debate.

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News flash, the military didn't decide to invade Iraq, it was the government of George W. Bush.

Relevance? This still is not about the cause of the war, but about the military covering up incidents that should not be covered up.

Again I must point out that just because you think another issue is more important (not to go to war in the first place) does not mean that we can not talk about this issue.

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Right, I'm supposed to keep my cool when you're calling me a liar in almost every one of your posts.

Feel free to comment what i write, just do not speak about me personally - it's childish, irrelevant, and makes it clear that you can not argue.

I say you're lying purely because you're lying. You say things that are not true, and things you can not possibly not know, are untrue, if you've read even half of what I wrote. That is the definition of a lie.

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Then that obviously isn't a war, is it?

If a country surrenders without ever having been in a struggle, is that war?
We can call it that. But then you are just even more wrong. It was me who mistakenly called it war, though i do not think it is, and therefore i withdrew my own words.

If the definition of war is correct - and I'd love to see a source on your definition - does not change anything.

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Amazing you actually think in war, innocent people dying is at all, "not inevitable". Defies logic.

What are you saying here? Are you saying that I believe war is inevitable that innocent deaths can be avoided or something else?

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Premeditated lie? LOL, wtf?! Get a grip.

When you repeat an assertion i just have stated was untrue, then it is indeed again the definition of it. If you do not like to have your falsehoods identified, as i perfectly understand, then dont bring them in the first place.

Alternatively, if you really do not think you're lying, would you be so kind to point to the post where i expressed that i expect soldiers to have perfect judgement at all times, as you claimed?

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But the fact of the matter is, no matter how precise your missiles are, no matter how much care you put into it, in a full scale war, many people are going to die regardless.

So your only argument is still to repeat what we agree on and what I've told you many times that we agree on, that some civilian deaths are inevitable?

We have been through this many times now. Civilian deaths are inevitable, but we still have to keep them as rare as possible.

Until you actually comment on the topic, instead of just keeping on repeating the same irrelevant argument over and over again we will get nowhere.
You could just as well respond to everything I say with "Yes, yes, but 2 +2 = 4". I know - but it has nothing to do with it.

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