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-- Everything popular is wrong - Stefan Goldmann
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quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker This is sort of what I'm getting at. There are actually DJ sets (the tranceaddicts unite series) which are entirely comprised of TA Producers' work. But I've yet to find (albeit I don't spend a ton of time in the DJ promotion section) a single TA production (TA DJ/Producers including their own work doesn't count) included in a set of other people's (some of whom may have been formerly active posters, here, but are not currently) work.

I've played a TA production before, a track by NDi in one of my progressive breaks set (before he was signed, I should add). Of course, he was the opposite of most TA producers, as he was all action and no mouth.

The disparity between DJs and producers you describe is probably down to the fact that the quality of TA's DJ community is far higher than its producer community. There are probably a dozen or more TAs I'd pay good money to hear play in a club, but there aren't many TA productions I'd want to hear in that club.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Even though, as I already pointed out, the popular perception of the producer forums is wrong

I don't think it's wrong at all.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I've played a TA production before, a track by NDi in one of my progressive breaks set (before he was signed, I should add). Of course, he was the opposite of most TA producers, as he was all action and no mouth. The disparity between DJs and producers you describe is probably down to the fact that the quality of TA's DJ community is far higher than its producer community. There are probably a dozen or more TAs I'd pay good money to hear play in a club, but there aren't many TA productions I'd want to hear in that club.

Was that the "Heart of Darkness" set?


I find the qualitative comparison between DJ's and producers implausible. No one, in their right mind, is diminishing the abilities of the DJ, by virtue of comparison or otherwise, here. They're entirely different sets of skills. Beyond that, I really don't know what to say to your points as they seem meant as a wholesale dismissal aimed at discouraging any further discussion that would argue, otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Was that the "Heart of Darkness" set?

No, it was Close Your Eyes. I'm surprised you know about Heart Of Darkness - that was well before your time.

Also, you see tracks by guys like Subtara (Subtle) and MSZ featured in mixes semi-regularly.

quote:

I find the qualitative comparison between DJ's and producers implausible. No one, in their right mind, is diminishing the abilities of the DJ, by virtue of comparison or otherwise, here. They're entirely different sets of skills. Beyond that, I really don't know what to say to your points as they seem meant as a wholesale dismissal aimed at discouraging any further discussion that would argue, otherwise.

You can find it as implausible as you like. I haven't sat down to figure out some causality behind it yet, but I do know that the DJ Promotion section of TA has given me an enormous amount of pleasure over the last few years, while the Producers Promotion hasn't. I think it's significant that the Producers section is filled with people still learning their trade and looking for feedback, where most of the DJ sets posted are the finished article. It's not really in the interests of a signed producer to give out free tracks. Maybe there are more TA DJs than producers, so consequently there are more good DJs than good producers.

But even beyond these potential data skews, there just seems to be more competency about the DJs. The Producers section of TA is a very frustrating place to me. It's full of people I disagree constantly with, rife with musical conservatism and lethargic posters who don't go clubbing, don't keep up with contemporary music and don't finish their work. If half these guys posted the same stuff in MD they'd be chewed up and spat out in no time.

I've played a few TA tracks. I would have played more, had there been more quality ones that fit the motives of whatever the output of that set was going to be. As per System's post, the quality thing is a big deal. Not to offend anyone as I've heard some pretty neat stuff from here, but the ratio of good track to bad is far worse than at the for sale points.

As producers, I don't know how much music shopping you do, but guys on the dj side of the coin spend a lot of time listening to bad music by professionals in order to find the good ones for what's next. The motivation to seek out an amateur production forum is probably not so high on the chart, and this is not directed at all of you but many of the productions from this forum(as well as others) are nowhere as good as the people making them would like to think they are.

The last reason why TA Djs do not use many TA producer tracks?

The majority do not fit anything going on in dance music, the majority do not fit the tastes of this board. Most of all, if no one knows who you are, make them. A lot of what djs play tend to also come from influences in relationships with other dj/producers. If some of you left your little hub of a sub forum and included yourself in some of the discussions not involving yourself, I can guarantee that the plays from this section would go up drastically.

If you wait for them to search you out, you will wait forever. They don't have to, because there are 20 others just as good (if not better) than you filling their in boxes with stuff.

I'll use a guy like MSZ as an example. I've never played any of his tracks because they never really fit the mood of the sets i was making at the time. He still always took the initiative to send tracks, comments, and so on. It also seems to be working for him.

If you want to be heard and have people play your music, the work is not done when you upload it and make a thread. If you think so, you are even "lazier" than those lazy talentless djs.

I'm drunk, i hope i wrote this in English.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No, it was Close Your Eyes. I'm surprised you know about Heart Of Darkness - that was well before your time. Also, you see tracks by guys like Subtara (Subtle) and MSZ featured in mixes semi-regularly.

I've listened to that one - twice, I believe, but not as extensively as your Epic House trilogy, which brought back the good old days. I still need to hear your most recent D&B entry but I heard the last.

If you have a link handy for Close Your Eyes I'll snag that, as well.

What I'll say is that a lot of the better productions I've heard are made by posters who DJ as well as produce. Lews, MSZ, Nemesis and Alfi come to mind. My past personal experience has been that DJ'ing helps develop production skills.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You can find it as implausible as you like. I haven't sat down to figure out some causality behind it yet, but I do know that the DJ Promotion section of TA has given me an enormous amount of pleasure over the last few years, while the Producers Promotion hasn't. I think it's significant that the Producers section is filled with people still learning their trade and looking for feedback, where most of the DJ sets posted are the finished article. It's not really in the interests of a signed producer to give out free tracks. Maybe there are more TA DJs than producers, so consequently there are more good DJs than good producers. But even beyond these potential data skews, there just seems to be more competency about the DJs. The Producers section of TA is a very frustrating place to me. It's full of people I disagree constantly with, rife with musical conservatism and lethargic posters who don't go clubbing, don't keep up with contemporary music and don't finish their work. If half these guys posted the same stuff in MD they'd be chewed up and spat out in no time.

Maybe we're a little closer in agreement than I previously thought. I wish I had more time to explain this, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. And nice post, Jay.

I actually read this section quite a bit, I'm just too embarassed to post here.

o snap msz talk about.

i wont really chime in, because i have nothing much to say regarding this topic lol, derp. To me, music is all about passion, and a feeling translation so as long as youre making that, and it translates to others i think its cool whatever you're making. everyone has their likes and donts, and can give reasons why. im still very much learning, and about every 2 weeks i want to give up, its a constant cycle, my life is not in pristine shape atm and i doubt i could hustle a career ever. im pretty glad i didnt give up yet because i seem to alwatys be getting better, ill post up a mistique music preview in the MP to showcase my latest(which they're very cool with it seems). im trying to dig deeper in older tracks, they see to have a profound effect on me.

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay I actually read this section quite a bit, I'm just too embarassed to post here.

That's part of the problem.

I've already posted, in this thread, that producers, here, tend to suffer from a little self-induced myopia. The result is a feedback loop where we can give each other often meaningful input that allows for improvement but DJ's can have a completely different take on it that is just as important; that all too often fails for being communicated.

My suggestion is that when you hear something you consider neat (not that you haven't) let the producer know and try to get to know producers in their learning continuum. I know it takes time away from other things but if people can relate to you guys, a little more, I suspect, over time, people can start developing music that is better tailored to the tastes of this board that still agrees with their artistic integrity.

Great post, Jay.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker If you have a link handy for Close Your Eyes I'll snag that, as well.

Stu has it perma-hosted somewhere. If you PM him, he should be able to help you out. Although I really need to update those old posts with his new links, so this thread should be motivation for that...

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker That's part of the problem. I've already posted, in this thread, that producers, here, tend to suffer from a little self-induced myopia. The result is a feedback loop where we can give each other often meaningful input that allows for improvement but DJ's can have a completely different take on it that is just as important; that all too often fails for being communicated. My suggestion is that when you hear something you consider neat (not that you haven't) let the producer know and try to get to know producers in their learning continuum. I know it takes time away from other things but if people can relate to you guys, a little more, I suspect, over time, people can start developing music that is better tailored to the tastes of this board that still agrees with their artistic integrity.

It's more the posters than anything else. Like the non stop dj bashing. The reality is that if the people saying all djs are useless could do it themselves, we wouldn't be taking "their" gigs.

You don't learn dance floor dynamics, what to play and when, flow, and tension and release techniques by never leaving the house and staring at a DAW. You actually need to go to clubs, if not to help you understand this by seeing pros do it, then to network to give you a shot at getting a gig. The funny thing is that right now the "dj" world is dominated by producers (at least on the international guest dj side) who can make great tracks but fail so hard at putting them together cohesively. It is so disappointing to see one of these acts fail at something you would figure they would have no trouble doing because, "hey, djing is easy.".

its not, because if it was you guys would know how to right?

cor version. 98% of the producers on here are muppets who like to think they are awesome, but if you threw them into a club the floor would probably be empty quicker than you can say "basshunter.".

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay & SYSTEM-J ...

I can't really think of what to add to what you guys have said and think whatever nuanced opinion I have is included in posts, prior to yours. Suffice to say that beyond some subtle differences, I pretty much agree with both of your takes on the issue. I think the potential for improvement - regarding producers, their abilities and how they relate to DJ's - is here but the proof will be in the pudding.

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay if you threw them into a club the floor would probably be empty quicker than you can say "basshunter.".

yep im still at that level of djing

Am I the only one here who is perhaps crazy enough to think that the declining prices could maybe turnout to be a good thing?

When people deal with music as a job their level of performance/creativity just decrease exponentially.

I find my self thinking, if people dealt with music more like a hobby or an art -something to do on their free time-, and the whole "I-wanna-get-famous-and-have-lots-of-moneyz-&-hoes" thing got out of the equation, I think we will hear less and less crappy music everyday.

(Ironically I was just listening to the latest Deadmau5 album while reading this...wtf is that? half of the album is just 4 kicks and spamming samples in the arrangement, he actually expects people to pay money for that?)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, when money is taken out of the equation, only the people that REALLY wanna make music will make music, and gradually each genre will get rid of the crappy stuff. It will basically be a huge popularity contest where producers only fight for reputation not cash.

At least thats what I think things will be.

Some people will of course respond with something like: "fu maan producers worked hard for their choonz maaan"

Putting aside the fact that half of them rarely do that anymore , my point is: Artists shouldn't expect something in return, art is art, we should keep it that way.

I realize its a weird-sounding idea, but I'm sure as the prices decline more and more, people will actually realize its more about the art and the cash is just a bonus.

quote:

Originally posted by hootsh Am I the only one here who is perhaps crazy enough to think that the declining prices could maybe turnout to be a good thing? When people deal with music as a job their level of performance/creativity just decrease exponentially. I find my self thinking, if people dealt with music more like a hobby or an art -something to do on their free time-, and the whole "I-wanna-get-famous-and-have-lots-of-moneyz-&-hoes" thing got out of the equation, I think we will hear less and less crappy music everyday. (Ironically I was just listening to the latest Deadmau5 album while reading this...wtf is that? half of the album is just 4 kicks and spamming samples in the arrangement, he actually expects people to pay money for that?) I guess what I'm trying to say is that, when money is taken out of the equation, only the people that REALLY wanna make music will make music, and gradually each genre will get rid of the crappy stuff. It will basically be a huge popularity contest where producers only fight for reputation not cash. At least thats what I think things will be. Some people will of course respond with something like: "fu maan producers worked hard for their choonz maaan" Putting aside the fact that half of them rarely do that anymore , my point is: Artists shouldn't expect something in return, art is art, we should keep it that way. I realize its a weird-sounding idea, but I'm sure as the prices decline more and more, people will actually realize its more about the art and the cash is just a bonus.

I think the complaint, where money is concerned in conjunction with the current system, is that you have a lot of artist generating a product, for a few labels, which is sold, earning a great deal of money that is disbursed disproportionately. Turning it into a popularity contest where producers fight for their reputation, while removing a cash incentive, and you have the premise for a pointless reality TV show.

Another reason Music producer's forum is garbage nowadays is people always post positive comments for bad tracks so that they can make allies and not enemies. I listen to almost every track in that forum but it's just numbing to see the level of uninspired uncreative music there.

With each bad DJ out there, there are 10x more terrible "I downloaded warez to produce music on my ipod earphones" producers. With that said, anyone with good combination of skill, creativity, networking, and marketing will make it in time. The rest will just sit there and endlessly make tracks that suck, that are formulaic, that are good but will not get heard by anyone, or does not have a selling point.

That said, for most producers, if you plan on making it in the business, you'd better hope you have natural talent, or work your ass off to make it.

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay It's more the posters than anything else. Like the non stop dj bashing. The reality is that if the people saying all djs are useless could do it themselves, we wouldn't be taking "their" gigs. You don't learn dance floor dynamics, what to play and when, flow, and tension and release techniques by never leaving the house and staring at a DAW. You actually need to go to clubs, if not to help you understand this by seeing pros do it, then to network to give you a shot at getting a gig. The funny thing is that right now the "dj" world is dominated by producers (at least on the international guest dj side) who can make great tracks but fail so hard at putting them together cohesively. It is so disappointing to see one of these acts fail at something you would figure they would have no trouble doing because, "hey, djing is easy.".

This goes along with the point that programming is one of those non essential skills DJs love to boast about.

If people are going to see a producer/DJ and they have a great time, what does it matter if the programming is good or not?

I would love to see a more humble DJ, one that does not act like the club world revolves around them.

Most DJs could be replaced by a computer.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux This goes along with the point that programming is one of those non essential skills DJs love to boast about. If people are going to see a producer/DJ and they have a great time, what does it matter if the programming is good or not? I would love to see a more humble DJ, one that does not act like the club world revolves around them. Most DJs could be replaced by a computer.

Obvious troll is obvious.

^^^^ I can only hope its a troll

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker That's part of the problem. I've already posted, in this thread, that producers, here, tend to suffer from a little self-induced myopia. The result is a feedback loop where we can give each other often meaningful input that allows for improvement but DJ's can have a completely different take on it that is just as important; that all too often fails for being communicated. My suggestion is that when you hear something you consider neat (not that you haven't) let the producer know and try to get to know producers in their learning continuum. I know it takes time away from other things but if people can relate to you guys, a little more, I suspect, over time, people can start developing music that is better tailored to the tastes of this board that still agrees with their artistic integrity.

DJs don't have a responsibility to come in here and lecture a bunch of producers who never go out, are completely bigoted and spend all day either licking each other's balls or engaging in playground fights. Honestly, DJs have their own favourite artists and more music than we can keep up with, none of them are going to need TA producers to make tracks for them, even if they could.

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux This goes along with the point that programming is one of those non essential skills DJs love to boast about. If people are going to see a producer/DJ and they have a great time, what does it matter if the programming is good or not? I would love to see a more humble DJ, one that does not act like the club world revolves around them. Most DJs could be replaced by a computer.

you are an idiot that will never gig if you believe this.

If it's not a troll, it's still stupidly counter-productive and qualifies as the shit-I-am-getting-tired-of.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips ^^^^ I can only hope its a troll DJs don't have a responsibility to come in here and lecture a bunch of producers who never go out, are completely bigoted and spend all day either licking each other's balls or engaging in playground fights. Honestly, DJs have their own favourite artists and more music than we can keep up with, none of them are going to need TA producers to make tracks for them, even if they could.

You're right and I'm not saying they do. The fact is that TA DJ's can, have, and will continue to do just fine without us. I think it would be enormously beneficial for TA producers to take TA DJ's more seriously and I think both could learn a lot from each other but it's up to any TA producer to be worthy of that exchange.

The problems you, among others, highlighted have helped to both foster an atmosphere of chaos and the producer forums' (both PS & MPP) bad reputation, but Diginut and others seem willing to change that and not let the continual trolling and flamewars slide. That chaos is a result of a failure to imagine anything better, and it seems like everyone who's actually interested in producing music, has had enough. As I said to Jay, the proof will be in the pudding, but I'm optimistic, for now.

the programming comment was by far the most retarded thing i have ever read on this forum.

do you enjoy productions if the mixdowns are bad? if all of the elements are out of time? if the progression of the track makes no sense? if the sounds appeal 0 to the crowd?

the answer is most likely no. the same can be said for a dj set.

people go out to have fun. if the dj sucks they don't dance, that simple. If you ever left the confines of your house to witness this first hand you would realize this.

on top of that, how many guys here could do a 6 hour set of just their stuff? Even if you could chances are it would not work and become redundant unless you produce a varied bunch of tracks.

It is easy to say all these things in your heads will work in principle, but as someone who has been around a long time and attending events since the mid 90's i can tell you right now that what you want to happen never will.

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay the programming comment was by far the most retarded thing i have ever read on this forum. do you enjoy productions if the mixdowns are bad? if all of the elements are out of time? if the progression of the track makes no sense? if the sounds appeal 0 to the crowd? the answer is most likely no. the same can be said for a dj set. people go out to have fun. if the dj sucks they don't dance, that simple. If you ever left the confines of your house to witness this first hand you would realize this. on top of that, how many guys here could do a 6 hour set of just their stuff? Even if you could chances are it would not work and become redundant unless you produce a varied bunch of tracks. It is easy to say all these things in your heads will work in principle, but as someone who has been around a long time and attending events since the mid 90's i can tell you right now that what you want to happen never will.

The only essential DJ skill is playing tracks people want to hear. Everything else is non-essential.

Things that aren't really important:

Scratching
FX
Improvisation
Beatmatching
Phrase matching
Phasing
EQ
"seemless" transitions
pairing sonically identical tracks together
Harmonic mixing
Redlining(to a degree)
sequencing tracks to create a "journey"

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux The only essential DJ skill is playing tracks people want to hear. Everything else is non-essential. Things that aren't really important: Scratching FX Improvisation Beatmatching Phrase matching Phasing EQ "seemless" transitions pairing sonically identical tracks together Harmonic mixing Redlining(to a degree) sequencing tracks to create a "journey"

considering it is becoming obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about and wouldn't be able to make people dance your input is about as valuable as an empty beer bottle.

hint: go back to making music that no one will listen to or play

quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux The only essential DJ skill is playing tracks people want to hear. Everything else is non-essential. Things that aren't really important: Scratching . . sequencing tracks to create a "journey"

But, you could make a similar case for music production and live music. A lot of the non-essential stuff plays a cumulative role in the overall experience. OMG, I think I just took the DJs' side!

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik But, you could make a similar case for music production and live music. A lot of the non-essential stuff plays a cumulative role in the overall experience. OMG, I think I just took the DJs' side!

I've actually heard a number of stories on NPR about how people are programming computers to be able to author music and actually emulate certain styles. One of the stories talked about a computer which functioned as the club DJ while clubbers were given buttons to press to indicate if they liked or disliked whatever the computer was playing. By process of elimination the computer would adjust whatever it was adding or taking out to satisfy the crowd. I'm not certain how well it worked, but the important thing to remember is that both the producer and the DJ were replaced by a bunch of button pushers and a computer.

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