wasnt this the discussion?
1. acid house (or whatever else acid genre) doesnt need to have a 303?
2. track with a 303 doesnt have to be acid house (or whatever else acid genre)?
3. hence acid=/=303?
Posted by SYSTEM-J on May-12-2011 17:57:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
honest question:
why do you think several of the tracks on the soul jazz record were included even though they don't have TB303, and thus supposedly aren't acid. didn't that ever confuse you?
No, because the cover clearly says "experimental house". And no, that's not a genre. It's an adjective combined with a noun, creating what we call a "description". The compilation is basically an anthology (and not definitive, because the inlay essay itself notes significant records that don't appear) of second-wave Chicago house, at the point where the scene cut loose from its disco origins. The cover clearly states "1985-1995", and we all agree that acid house didn't exist in 1985. There are, as I recall, also a couple of less canonical later records included which were intended to show where the Chicago scene went after acid house exploded across the Atlantic.
I think your position stems from how all this second wave, simulacra-house got caught up in the "acid" hysteria, and for a while almost everything out of Chicago was being labelled acid just because the term was so bankable. Like a lot of genre labels, there was much etymological confusion at the start that has since smoothed out.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 18:08:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No, because the cover clearly says "experimental house". And no, that's not a genre. It's an adjective combined with a noun, creating what we call a "description". The compilation is basically an anthology (and not definitive, because the inlay essay itself notes significant records that don't appear) of ...
So you really think that they would choose to put several tracks without the TB303 on a record that's literally called ACID? Why would they even do that? Why not call it CHICAGO then? I didn't say it as definitive, that's what it says on the sticker. Sorry. not making sense. Occam's razor. simplest explanation is on a big record called ACID, hand picked by a bunch of phenomenal A&R people, the tracks are most likely acid.
Also you if you contend that the non tb303 tracks are somehow the mysterious 'experimental house' tracks, and experimental is used as an adjective then you'd have to admit that the tb303 tracks aren't experimental.
Come on, dude.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
... second-wave Chicago house, at the point where the scene cut loose from its disco origins.
Yes, acid house. Hence the big ACID.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I think your position stems from how all this second wave, simulacra-house got caught up in the "acid" hysteria, and for a while almost everything out of Chicago was being labelled acid just because the term was so bankable. Like a lot of genre labels, there was much etymological confusion at the start that has since smoothed out.
No, it was all called acid before the hysteria, and the bankable part of it was the TB303 sound, which is why people like you think that's what the word means.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 18:18:
I'm willing to say that it's acceptable to call the sound of the tweaking tb303 'acid' (though I personally would never say this), if you admit that there are acid house tracks that don't use TB303, and that acid house is a movement.
No reason it can't be both, it's just a word.
but I still think it's more correct to say the technique is acid, whether it's a 303 or drum machine, or a sampler, or whatever.
Posted by Zak McKracken on May-12-2011 18:23:
it has to be the drugs. how can a sound be acid to begin with? music doesnt taste nor does it have PH. first came the drugs, then came the genre-name. same with psychedelic rock. it became that because that was the music that was played at the events of where people where psychedelic lol. you could use trance as example too!
Posted by SYSTEM-J on May-12-2011 18:24:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
Also you if you contend that the non tb303 tracks are somehow the mysterious 'experimental house' tracks, and experimental is used as an adjective then you'd have to admit that the tb303 tracks aren't experimental.
Why? It says AND, not OR. What a bizarre insistence.
The title does not define the content. Here's another renowned Soul Jazz compilation which I own:
Shall we go through the same process? Title says dub, content is actually mainly dubstep. Subtitle says "future dub", future dub isn't actually a genre. However, the dubstep on the comp can be described as future dub.
You're really hanging on by the fingernails here. Strawmanning me badly, trying to twist my dismissal of Phuture as musicians into a proclamation of their ignorance, failed attempt to shift the debate goalposts, now this bizarre reliance on the cover design of a 2005 compilation to define an entire genre.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 18:29:
quote:
Originally posted by clay
it has to be the drugs. how can a sound be acid to begin with? music doesnt taste nor does it have PH. first came the drugs, then came the genre-name. same with psychedelic rock. it became that because that was the music that was played at the events of where people where psychedelic lol.
yeah i mean it is either way. the question is after the word came up, what it came to denote.
quote:
The second generation House sound probably began with the international success of Phutures's "Acid Tracks" a hugely influential record, which captured the extreme spirit of the House scene's most ardent adherents, the hardcore dancer in Chicago, who variously experimented with LSD, acid psychedelia and new designer drugs like Ectasy. Frankie Knuckles has been careful not to sensationalise the influence of drugs. "Today there is more psychedlic sound. Acid is probably the most prevelant drug on the scene, but House is no druggier than any other scene".
wonder what drugs were used when they came up with psychedelic trance. must have been powerful stuff. chemicals and organic shit mixed up i guess.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 18:36:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Why? It says AND, not OR. What a bizarre insistence.
yes... that's why all the tracks on there are both experimental, and acid house. thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The title does not define the content. Here's another renowned Soul Jazz compilation which I own:
That doesn't mean anything. You can't just make a bullshit rule out of thin air about a supposed method that one label uses to name ALL of their records.
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You're really hanging on by the fingernails here. Strawmanning me badly, trying to twist my dismissal of Phuture as musicians into a proclamation of their ignorance, failed attempt to shift the debate goalposts, now this bizarre reliance on the cover design of a 2005 compilation to define an entire genre.
I would say your assertion about soul jazz nomenclature techniques is quite a bit more bizarre.
My point doesn't at all rely on that cover, but it is worth bringing it up, since the express purpose of that record was in fact to define the genre.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 18:38:
hey system-j,
is this acid?
also for anyone further interested in this discussion, search up the 313 mailing list archives. lots of good stuff in here.
Originally posted by nefardec
yes... that's why all the tracks on there are both experimental, and acid house. thanks.
Oh dear, oh dear... Just because the acid tracks are experimental, doesn't mean all the experimental tracks must be acid. As with the Box Of Dub example, all the dubstep tracks are "future dub", but not every track on there is dubstep. That was the point of the example.
quote:
My point doesn't at all rely on that cover, but it is worth bringing it up, since the express purpose of that record was in fact to define the genre.
O rly?
quote:
...this album ⎯ which focuses on experimental house records, many of them rarities, many of them released between 1985 and 1988 ⎯ opens up an opportunity to retell the story of Chicago house that gives belated emphasis to the music's progressive roots.
Anyway, as entertaining as this is, I'm going to have to cut it short for now. I'm going out to a disco night.
Posted by Zyklon_Jay on May-12-2011 18:58:
i sold a bunch of really bad uk garage and 2 step records and said it was dubstep once because i wanted to get rid of them quick
Posted by sljiva on May-12-2011 19:06:
The reason why this discussion will never be fruitful is the fact that two kids are arguing over a movement which was in heat almost 25 years ago, before some of them were even born. So the disconnection is more than obvious, no matter how much literature about given subject they've digested.
Now, if 10 people that were actually there at the time posted here and revealed the TRUTH, I'd be convinced, though I'm not sure I'd be hard-pressed to care a bit more. Again, genre names are not empirically determined and it's super silly to argue so much about something scientifically unverifiable. It's as stupid as arguing about religion.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 19:06:
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Anyway, as entertaining as this is, I'm going to have to cut it short for now. I'm going out to a disco night.
oh no he didn't!
this is the one step away from 'if you'll excuse me i'm going to go fuck my supermodel girlfriend, internet losers'
oh boy.
btw the cajmere track was made with a dx-7, no 303.
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 19:12:
quote:
Originally posted by sljiva
Again, genre names are not empirically determined and it's super silly to argue so much about something scientifically unverifiable. It's as stupid as arguing about religion.
that's why i suggested we just accept both as truth. no reason the word 'acid' can't be used to refer to:
1.) the sound of a 303 tweaking
2.) any synthesizer/drum machine/sampler manipulated in a similar way
3.) a constellation of house records mostly originating from a dance culture in chicago which signaled a distinct break from disco oriented tracks to alien-sounding, aggressive, percussive, rhythmic tracks that relied on repetitive, variously articulated mechanical manipulation and modulation of early synthesizers, drum machines, and samplers, central to which was (1).
Posted by geroin on May-12-2011 19:44:
pink floyd invented acid in 1972?
Posted by Zak McKracken on May-12-2011 20:08:
thats prolly a juno or a moog. i also think thats whats used in smack my bitch up and not a 303. not sure about that though. the name prodigy came from somewhere and it was not a 303 lol.
Posted by geroin on May-12-2011 20:12:
quote:
Originally posted by clay
thats prolly a juno or a moog.
no..
Posted by Domesticated on May-12-2011 20:20:
quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
oh no he didn't!
this is the one step away from 'if you'll excuse me i'm going to go fuck my supermodel girlfriend, internet losers'
oh boy.
btw the cajmere track was made with a dx-7, no 303.
Bahaha, you retard. You've been arguing with SYSTEM-J for the better part of a decade and you genuinely think he'd back out of another one? And with a shitty excuse like that?
Posted by nefardec on May-12-2011 21:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
Bahaha, you retard. You've been arguing with SYSTEM-J for the better part of a decade and you genuinely think he'd back out of another one? And with a shitty excuse like that?
well.. no. but what's with the 'screw you guys im going to the disco' message? why doesn't he just tell us what he's eaten while he's at it?
quote:
You've been arguing with SYSTEM-J for the better part of a decade
damn, that's sad.
*looks wistfully at bygone life*
Posted by Bryce Santiago on May-12-2011 21:28:
quote:
Originally posted by sljiva
The reason why this discussion will never be fruitful is the fact that two kids are arguing over a movement which was in heat almost 25 years ago, before some of them were even born. So the disconnection is more than obvious, no matter how much literature about given subject they've digested.
Now, if 10 people that were actually there at the time posted here and revealed the TRUTH, I'd be convinced, though I'm not sure I'd be hard-pressed to care a bit more. Again, genre names are not empirically determined and it's super silly to argue so much about something scientifically unverifiable. It's as stupid as arguing about religion.
The discussion is deteriorating, but I do have to say even if someone was around from the day those records were made, it still doesn't prove that they are qualified to speak on the subject. The same can be said for the many articles like the UK journalist. Just because someone is writing an article doesn't even mean his data is correct. The reality is, much of what we refer to are just opinions on stuff that wasn't taken so seriously at the time. You are totally correct, and it is a silly waste. Acid House is just House that got re-branded. Acid House is not a genre in my opinion, it's just a sub-genre or re-labelling of House. House has been re-branded time and time again...as DJs and magazines need to continually re-invent themselves...INCLUDING the word Trance.
>second-wave Chicago house, at the point where the scene cut loose >from its disco origins. The cover clearly states "1985-1995", and we >all agree that acid house didn't exist in 1985.
I agree on what you refer to here as the 2nd wave, and this 2nd wave you speak of is the Acid House movement. It was the next generation of partiers. According to you though if the 303 was Acid, and it was placed in a House record, 'Acid House' did in fact exist in 1985. The Z-Factor record by Jesse Saunders that I refer to has those sounds in it, and it was released in 1984-1985. Lastly, I'm pretty sure the Sleezy D (Marshall Jefferson) record may have been played in 1985. A lot of the early Trax records were pressed later than when the music was played on reel-to-reel etc.. Does anyone have the Green Sleezy D? Or the Green Jungle Wonz? or the White vinyl Ron Hardy Sensation? The photo of the Fresh Dum Dum record (By Jessse Saunders) for example was released in 1984-1985 on a ghetto looking label called PRECISION RECORDS. This came from Larry Shermans record plant where all those crackily records were being pressed...including Trax which he owns.
Records were described as Acid House that didn't sound like those terrible (in my opinion) Acid Trax records. Mr. Fingers Can U Feel It is a perfect example. A huge record at the time that was definitely a defining sound of the Acid House movement. I wasn't there in 1985-1986, but I did start collecting in 1987. Even in 1987 the scene was still considered primitive and small. I was too young to attend the events but I was collecting it from my cousins. It wasn't until the later 1980's that the Acid House movement started growing large. You started seeing those T-shirts with the happy face that said Acid House, and people started wearing these silk dress shirts with poka dots, Pants were baggy...to the point of stupidly baggy. This could be where that early candy raver style came from - the acid house style.
Nobody mentions DJ International too. A HUGE label with many records that had the Acid sounds in it (yes I agree that you can call that sound acid...but the instrument in of itself is not very important...the word was more to describe a Future Generation), but ALL these records are technically just House music. The word Acid House is dumb in my opinion to use it as a sub-genre of House. It's just House.
Posted by sljiva on May-12-2011 23:13:
quote:
Originally posted by Bryce Santiago
The reality is, much of what we refer to are just opinions on stuff that wasn't taken so seriously at the time.
And that's the funniest thing about this discussions - people like you and Tance-MB who were actually involved in these movements are keeping a low profile and seldom discuss these silly genre divisions, while people like System-J and nefardec are all over the place and act like someone desecrated a sacred part of their non-existent pasts when they see a definition of a genre different from theirs.
And I'm still standing by my statement that if 10 people who were actually experiencing this acid craze came here with their little personal stories (that are so important, yet so rarely mentioned in these features/magazines/books/docs...) and agreed upon a genre label, I'd be ready to instantly buy into them no matter how illogical they sounded (because genre labels are not very logical in the first place).
In the end, a genre label is just a catchy description of type of music in question - nothing more, nothing less. If two people have two different names for the same kind of music - hey, it's not that big of a tragedy.
Posted by bas on May-13-2011 00:37:
Old news
Posted by nefardec on May-13-2011 00:45:
quote:
Originally posted by sljiva
And that's the funniest thing about this discussions - people like you and Tance-MB who were actually involved in these movements are keeping a low profile and seldom discuss these silly genre divisions, while people like System-J and nefardec are all over the place and act like someone desecrated a sacred part of their non-existent pasts when they see a definition of a genre different from theirs.
that's what we do in the 'music discussion' forum. my age and experience doesn't prevent me from being able to have an opinion on anything. as one of your treasured 'involved' members just attested to - people who were 'involved' can have just as slanted or biased or incorrect observations. anyway anything i've said in this thread it's definitely more useful than standing back and then critiquing others' posts at the end.
Posted by nefardec on May-13-2011 00:51:
