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-- wall street protests...is this the start of the revolution?
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quote:

Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Well sure, they (meaning TPTB) have to paint the mob as a bunch of immature children who have nothing better to do than demolish everything around them for no reason. If they actually informed about their motivations and deeper societal causes, the risk of spreading it further would rise significantly.

The "risk" of spreading it? Don't make me laugh. Do you have any idea how much corporate money is being poured into spreading this little movement at this very moment?

If those in power wanted to put a stop to these little protests, it would be a trivial matter. At this point, however, that's the last thing they want. They'll continue to allow these protesters to play out their little fantasy, unaware that they are serving the very interests they intend to oppose.

quote:

Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Well sure, they (meaning TPTB) have to paint the mob as a bunch of immature children who have nothing better to do than demolish everything around them for no reason. If they actually informed about their motivations and deeper societal causes, the risk of spreading it further would rise significantly. As for the question in the OP, personally I'm convinced there will actually be massive and violent uprisings pretty much all around the developed world in the near future. The Wall Street protests aren't the start of a revolution more than Greece isn't the start of the big economic meltdown in Europe. They are both first visible symptoms of something much larger and systemic, which is now just beginning to fully unfold.

Lulz. The idealism of youth!

quote:

Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Well sure, they (meaning TPTB) have to paint the mob as a bunch of immature children who have nothing better to do than demolish everything around them for no reason. If they actually informed about their motivations and deeper societal causes, the risk of spreading it further would rise significantly. As for the question in the OP, personally I'm convinced there will actually be massive and violent uprisings pretty much all around the developed world in the near future. The Wall Street protests aren't the start of a revolution more than Greece isn't the start of the big economic meltdown in Europe. They are both first visible symptoms of something much larger and systemic, which is now just beginning to fully unfold.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The "risk" of spreading it? Don't make me laugh. Do you have any idea how much corporate money is being poured into spreading this little movement at this very moment? If those in power wanted to put a stop to these little protests, it would be a trivial matter. At this point, however, that's the last thing they want. They'll continue to allow these protesters to play out their little fantasy, unaware that they are serving the very interests they intend to oppose.

Not sure if serious...








Honestly, I think there's a limit to the complexity through which conspiracies can maintain their cohesion as there are limits to the tolerance for both internal and external chaos those implementing such designs can withstand. I'll stop short of saying either of you are wrong about your respective theses, but I don't see myself arguing for them, either. Maybe I'm in denial but I remember having such conversations with a friend of mine, years ago, with his perspective as an anthropologist coloring his Path to Rome's Fate speech.

It was almost a demoralized resignation to the worst of all possible scenarios. I was never quite sure if it was the pot arousing his paranoia or the half-fifth of bourbon depressing his outlook. It was as grim then as it is, now, and I wondered sometimes, while he was cleaning his SKS, if he didn't actually hope for it.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Honestly, I think there's a limit to the complexity through which conspiracies can maintain their cohesion as there are limits to the tolerance for both internal and external chaos those implementing such designs can withstand.

Collective action requires neither "design" nor "conspiracy"; simple economic incentives will do. These protests as something that the general public has shown a willingness to consume, and that makes them valuable.

The Commodification Will not be Televised!

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Collective action requires neither "design" nor "conspiracy"; simple economic incentives will do. These protests as something that the general public has shown a willingness to consume, and that makes them valuable.

I think there are limitations applicable to wide-spread dissatisfaction being purposed for consumption. I'll grant you that it's a ready-made "product" but it is still social outcry that isn't necessarily answerable to the media's traditional feedback loops and echo chambers. In fact, it takes issue with much of the media's practices and, furthermore, is administered by people who are no less savvy than the typical PR gurus who have participated in styling news coverage so as to put corporate interests in a more favorable light.

quote:

Originally posted by GoSpeedGo! Well sure, they (meaning TPTB) have to paint the mob as a bunch of immature children who have nothing better to do than demolish everything around them for no reason. If they actually informed about their motivations and deeper societal causes, the risk of spreading it further would rise significantly. As for the question in the OP, personally I'm convinced there will actually be massive and violent uprisings pretty much all around the developed world in the near future. The Wall Street protests aren't the start of a revolution more than Greece isn't the start of the big economic meltdown in Europe. They are both first visible symptoms of something much larger and systemic, which is now just beginning to fully unfold.

you should have wrote 1 more paragraph after that explaining to us the benefits of homeopathy.

It is fairly clear that a different approach needs to be taken on capitalism across the globe if there is to be any sort of peaceful coexistence between all nation states.

Capital markets as they stand now have gone from something that was a bad idea and prone to problems in the first place to an outright scam. Markets are no longer dictated by any tangible assets and are frequently rocked by the emotions and fears of wealth holders. Capital is raised solely for the sake of raising more capital, and it is moved around with impudence towards even the nations that the markets exist in. Globally connected economic systems have allowed wealth generation to rise above national interests and has let the barons of capital dictate national policy from a seat of ethereal strength.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby That is a good thing. Libertarianism and Ron Paul is about as far away from this movement as anything or anyone could be.

actually, ron has come out in favour of it because of the apparent "anti-fed" elements.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN actually, ron has come out in favour of it because of the apparent "anti-fed" elements.

Ugh.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby utopian ideal

I'd prefer Ron Paul to any of the other republican presidential candidates, and certainly to Obama... hoping for some utopian ideal is more fun than accepting the status quo election after election.

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong I'd prefer Ron Paul to any of the other republican presidential candidates, and certainly to Obama... hoping for some utopian ideal is more fun than accepting the status quo election after election.

I don't think you understand the term Utopian Ideal...

He had me until Ron Paul.

quote:

Time has a new poll up today showing that 54% of the people polled view the Occupy Wall St. movement favorably (very, or somewhat), whereas only 27% see the Tea Party movement in the same light. On the flip side 13% of those polled view the Wall St. protesters in a 'very unfavorable' light whereas 27% think that of the Tea Party.

http://www.businessinsider.com/poll...a-party-2011-10

You said that libertarianism is a utopian ideal. I don't agree with that, but even if it is, I would much rather try it out than elect one of the other republicans or re-elect Obama.

To me, the belief that the US federal government can smoothly and efficiently deliver productive employment, economic growth, education, healthcare, stable monetary policy, protection of civil liberties, and a whole bunch of other things it purports to do is also a utopian ideal. (Not to say you're an advocate of any/all of these things, I don't know where you stand on anything other than disliking Ron Paul)

quote:

Originally posted by Vector A http://www.businessinsider.com/poll...a-party-2011-10

looks like the they are going to get evicted tomorrow morning. i was planning on going back tomorrow afternoon.

the mayor is planning a 'cleaning' ruse whereby they kick people out 'temporarily' from parts of the park while they clean. then they are introducing a set of new park rules that state you're not allowed to either lay down or set up sleeing bags and tarps.


how do you end a revolution? take away their blankets

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Do you have any idea how much corporate money is being poured into spreading this little movement at this very moment?

No. Do you? I don't have any insider information.

It's definitely plausible though, this is how this kind of real capitalism we're living in works, and how it makes people feel comfortable in their passivity. Things like Live 8 or whatever's the crap called. "Let's all pretend we're helping the poor so that noone actually helps them."

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong To me, the belief that the US federal government can smoothly and efficiently deliver productive employment, economic growth, education, healthcare, stable monetary policy, protection of civil liberties, and a whole bunch of other things it purports to do is also a utopian ideal. (Not to say you're an advocate of any/all of these things, I don't know where you stand on anything other than disliking Ron Paul)

It is not a Utopian ideal because plenty of other countries provide their citizens with much better versions of the services you all mentioned. So its not utopian because it exists elsewhere. Its just an issue if we can get the US to do it or not. Libertarians do not even want to try though. They want to give it all to the private corporations that are the issue right now.

You realize thats what libertarianism is right? Its mainly based on the idea that corporations can do everything better than government. They wrap it up in "individuals" but they put no limitations on where and what big business plays a roll in. It's basically selling everything out to the corporations who have absolutely no vested interest in keeping people happy, healthy, and educated. That is how the corporations act in this country (sadly, its not even a utopian ideal that you have strong care-taking corporations, because a lot of corporations in other countries are far more aligned with their national interests than those in the US).

http://www.businessinsider.com/what...ut-2011-10?op=1

All parties seem to agree that Wall Street bankers should have never got bailed out, but it was a Democratic Congress which factually passed the legislation to make it happen.

A little disparaged, as of most Americans are, about the message the protestors are trying to make with their protest. Got the Wall Street part, and we can't change what already happened unless we want to spend more taxpayer money to send a few scapegoats to jail while the main culprits and the rest go free which is a given.

If the protesters had any kind of message other than far left blather about redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor (aka communism), then its not happening. I don't know if they really expect finance brokers to walk out of the NYSE Stock Exchange and write them a check to make them feel good. A large portion of the protestors are probably living that dream now through welfare where those same NYSE Brokers are, in effect, paying the taxes to write them paychecks for doing nothing now.

[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by smokeu All parties seem to agree that Wall Street bankers should have never got bailed out, but it was a Democratic Congress which factually passed the legislation to make it happen. A little disparaged, as of most Americans are, about the message the protestors are trying to make with their protest. Got the Wall Street part, and we can't change what already happened unless we want to spend more taxpayer money to send a few scapegoats to jail while the main culprits and the rest go free which is a given. If the protesters had any kind of message other than far left blather about redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor (aka communism), then its not happening. I don't know if they really expect finance brokers to walk out of the NYSE Stock Exchange and write them a check to make them feel good. A large portion of the protestors are probably living that dream now through welfare where those same NYSE Brokers are, in effect, paying the taxes to write them paychecks for doing nothing now. [[[smoke]]]

Its not communism idiot. No one is saying nationalize all the banks, no one is talking about disbanding all private property. They are talking about socialism, which the top rated countries all implement to varying degrees, all more than the US does.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Its not communism idiot. No one is saying nationalize all the banks, no one is talking about disbanding all private property. They are talking about socialism, which the top rated countries all implement to varying degrees, all more than the US does.

Socialism has failed in Europe and banks there are struggling to keep Greece, Turkey, Italy, and others afloat.

Not a good system to mirror our economy off of which Obama has tried to do. Has ended up in a historic debt that our grandkids will inherit (your kid's kids), a steady and abysmal unemployment rate more like 16% than the advertised 9%, and an economy faltering which could topple the world's economy without some drastic and immediate action. That would mean firing the incumbents, including the Fed chief and the rest of the "ill" advisors which have sunk us into a funk, and putting someone else in charge to solve the problem.

Free enterprise has always proven to be a better substitute over socialism.

[[[smoke]]]

so i just got back from liberty plaza - people are sharing strategies for dealing with the police tomorrow. the police are already bolstering along the edges, there are like rows of motorbikes and what not. some shit is going to go down, lots of good old fashioned civil disobedience.

'cleanup' begins at 7 tomorrow so I may wake up early with a couple of my friends and join the blockade.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec so i just got back from liberty plaza - people are sharing strategies for dealing with the police tomorrow. the police are already bolstering along the edges, there are like rows of motorbikes and what not. some shit is going to go down, lots of good old fashioned civil disobedience. 'cleanup' begins at 7 tomorrow so I may wake up early with a couple of my friends and join the blockade.

but micheal kors is so having a sale demain.

quote:

Originally posted by Zyklon_Jay micheal kors

bleghhhhh

I say the same thing about size 13 heels

oh yes I did girlfriend. dial a bitch!

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