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-- what are biggest mistakes beginning producers make?
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Originally posted by Cyrus King Da Vinci used egg yolk in his paintings. Get over yourself

your the one with the fucking issue. My standard is quite logical, defensible and reasonable. I don't blame you for your standard. I haven't criticized you either so fuck off.

quote:

Originally posted by derail Okay, fine. I guess I'm trying to understand why you're singling out EDM - following your logic, what is any genre these days "adding to the musical canon" besides "production"? In any case, my point is that whether or not the only thing being added is production, a lot of listeners don't care about it. For me, if a song doesn't have a strong melody, it can be as original and creative as it wants, production-wise, and it's not going to mean a thing. On the other hand, if it's just a guy with an acoustic guitar, same "production" as has been heard a billion times, but playing a great melody - yeah, I'd much rather spend my time listening to that. And that's fine - we all like what we like. Some people like certain sports, some people like certain foods, some people like new production techniques. Each to their own.

i am not singling out EDM. This pretty much applies to all western music. If anything, it was a compliment in that EDM is really one of the few types of music doing anything new. Melodies are important i never said otherwise, The point is that what ever you go with , it is a derivative of something else. If anything, it should be liberating for most. Carte blanche to be uncreative.

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Originally posted by adi_hanson I can't be arsed reading through seven pages

Noob (for minimal post per page view)

The thing is

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Da Vinci used egg yolk in his paintings.

What the cock does that have to do with the price of fish? It was a commonly used ingredient in paint during the renaissance.

L4C actually has a point about the melody thing, but art is always contextual (and every paint stroke in every color has technically been made but painters keep coming up with new and interesting paintings due to their place in space and time so same goes for music) so as long as people keep (re)inventing their will always be new dance music.

The biggest problem (and now to bring these points nicely back on track) is that too many producers focus on gimmicks or tricks or novelties at least in the popular arena; listen to any SHM, Avicii, SVD, EC twins, etc and you'll hear the same aesthetic elements again and again. Absolutely zero creativity in terms of doing something new, then combine that with mind-numbingly basic melodies (I shudder to even call them that) and you have music that is nothing but aesthetic.

The irony is, that if melody has all been done, then aesthetic is what we rely on and at least in popular terms is going nowhere.

Personally, I don't care if melodies are being re-hashed or have been done before, it about using them in context and frankly I doubt I've heard 0.1% of all the possible usable melodies that could be used in a 128bpm track, so bring them on (but from a technical standpoint L4C is right).

So, the advice pertinent to the thread is not to get hung up on creating what others are doing right now just to copy them; good as a learning tool but truly terrible for creativity advancement or the quality of your output.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King There's nothing wrong with using presets. As long as you use them to make a good song. You can make and tweak and design as many fucking sounds as you want, but if your melody and arrangement and creativity are not there... There's no point! Make good music, with whatever you have. I hate this elitist shit going on online where if you don't design your own sounds than you suck.. Well avicii is making millions and touring the world.. And he uses prests in almost all his productions... He's doing something right Are you going to criticize bethovens work because he didn't invent cellos?

You will always find this attitude about presets, I suppose it will never go away. Entry level producers shouldn't be worrying so much about sound design, they should be focused on making music. Getting bogged down in sound design will just slow you down.

Nothing wrong with using presets, just make sure you are able to tweak them a bit to fit into the song properly. Using presets is certainly not a "mistake". There is merit in learning how to create your own sounds, but with thousands of presets out there, what you create is not going to be any better. If sound design is your thing, great, go for it. If not, don't worry about it, it won't hurt you.

You should at least know the basics of synthesis, it would be a mistake not to understand that. You can tweak a preset enough that it becomes your own. You can add external effects as well.

there seems to be some confusion regarding my view on melody. As rann pointed out, it isn't that i do not think it is important, i am just saying that there is nothing new melody wise in EDM or any other style. So you are using something already done in a new context which is usually part of some aesthetic which is why i place a certain premium on someone that is able to provide the basics but also a style and palette that is unique and makes you go what ??

that is what separates artists like noisia from some artists that have nothing really. How many threads regarding how to sound like Justice, daft punk, noisia. Granted justice used some presets i suppose but it was mr oizo's production that made them who they are. Same melodies by Avicii and you have nothing.

When someone exciting happens in EDM, it is always a shift in production aesthetic. You might hate dubstep , i sure do but when those first few tracks showed up , there was something there that was different and made you want to know what was going on. At least that is how I operate.

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney When someone exciting happens in EDM, it is always a shift in production aesthetic. You might hate dubstep , i sure do but when those first few tracks showed up , there was something there that was different and made you want to know what was going on. At least that is how I operate.

True indeed, aesthetics. Sound design and new production tricks, creative use of FX, percussion arrangements. I'm not a fan of dubstep, but I'm learning to appreciate it some. I am to the point where I want to dissect that sound and know how it's done. I don't mind when a track incorporates a little of everything, a bit of dubstep, breaks, electro, house, euro dance. What I'm hearing now is creative and eclectic. Listening to Tiesto club life and Nicky Romero Protocol Radio lately.

Innovators are rarely newcomers. Innovating usually comes along after years of producing, not something beginners should be concerned about. Most of us, 99.9%, won't ever innovate anyway. We just try to do the same thing in a new and unique way.

See melody as a checkerboard, het landscape has been set and all possible moves have been identified, it's just like Chess, no suprises, just predefined chains of events.

melody is just another preset

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney that is what separates artists like noisia from some artists that have nothing really.

I listened to a number of Noisia tracks on youtube, and now I'm confused. I'm hearing different types of distortion, some reverse audio, some standard production techniques (drops, changing drums to half-time feel), but nothing that many other artists haven't done before.

How is combining a standard set of production techniques in a slightly different way, different to combining a standard set of notes in a slightly different way?

From where I'm standing, I can't see how any artist in any style is doing anything "new", whether we're talking melodies or production techniques.

For me, the Noisia tracks I listened to gave me nothing catchy to get stuck in my head - I couldn't hum anything in the tracks I listened to today. I'd file them closer to Squarepusher's stuff, or BT's more production-focussed efforts...in my experience producers when they're focussing on production techniques don't spend much time on melodies...

just like dance music is all just bleeps and boops to any rocker. There are millions of threads on how to sound like them but nobody really knows. There are no presets because their sound doesn't come from presets. There is alot more going but i suppose one would have to be able to recreate it to appreciate how involved it is.

i havent even read thru the thread, lots of posts xD but i'de say over compressing kick drums is overdone alot of the times!

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Originally posted by stewart.m trying to copy the pros just make your own shit sound good

Copy in some terms (like mixing) is good. It's actually necessary to learn something and "fit-in" in present way of making music. Doing everything your way and is great, being creative is great, but why not to take shortcuts by trying to copy and learning in that way to make music for present requirements (especially when it comes to sound design). Besides, you have to fit it in what crowd likes to promote yourself, and this is the way to do it, to make everyone hear you. And this should (must?) be done to get attention BEFORE you post something of your "real soul creations"

/Have you noticed, that many artists, especially ones producing some electronic music subtype, change their style almost drastically months after they go on charts? They got attention they wanted, they are more free to do anything their way./

"Fake it before you make it." in my opinion is a good one attitude.

As for the topic:
Rushing - Posting something that you KNOW could be done better. (I've done (and am doing still) this a lot, just get impatient and post on SoundCloud half-breed mix, which, with work, could be times better in terms of..well..everything. Mixing, Production, Sound design...) I don't know real reasons behind this. It may be just rushing and impatience to make your creation public and get the feel of "I created something," without giving a f*** that track is weak, uninteresting, beach dance track reminding 80 year old virgin going berserk on dance floor supported by sounds reminding rheumatism. It's still a virgin though, awaiting for someones ears to "open it's treasure chest." Maybe it's inability to realize that track isn't that good and the fact that you made a track doesn't quite make you an artist. Or at least artist that is praisable in every possible way you expect. Maybe, like in my case, it's just a pure laziness. Do nothing, expect much. Need to do something with this attitude. And Under this one goes many other mistakes like

Not giving attention to details.
Not giving enough thought on idea of track.
Not paying attention on quality and real purpose of plugins (but don't limit yourself, be creative, many times another purpose plugin makes a great, unpredictable, desirable and creative effect). As an example, I will make FL's native Fruity Reverb plugin, which, for electronic instruments is bareable, but when it comes to live intruments, it's just awful. (But, as mentioned above, don't overdo and spend money on stuff that you will do nothing with. Useful thing at this stage is..khem..being a nasty pirate.)
Overdoing. This goes everywhere. Making too much of some effect or raising everything too high. When producing a track, you need to look at the "bigger picture," sight and feel of the whole track is important. Many, when mixing, end their "session" by mixing looking at each track individually and stop there.

Not in thinking mood, possibly wrote some crap here.

releasing material before they are ready

there is no rush, and if you keep the same alias throughout you dont want average shit release smearing your discog, wait, perfect, hone those skills until the time is right to strike..

If it's all about finding novelty in sound design and we've pretty much exhausted the musically useful settings of subtractive and FM synthesis, then what is left there? I guess you can filter the shit out of some noise, theres probably some novelty left in granular, additive, and physical modeling methods as well.

Are we to all learn max/msp, PD, csound, supercollider and that kind of stuff to arrive at something new production wise?

Right now what I hear happening is mostly massive and FM8 usage, not that I mind it, the FM8 is rather fun to play with. I'm just not sure if the continued exploration of synth programming as an avenue to new art won't also dry up rather quickly, unless we start developing a taste for different varieties of squelchy noise configurations.

The real artsy folks around me are way into this glitchy computer crashing type stuff but I don't really feel the new in it, people have been doing glitch for ages and to me it all sounds the same.

i find the use of smart automation combined with resampling and using effects in a non static way what can be explored much further.

I've been exploring modular synthesis with my nod g1 and g2 and there are some tutorials that are mind boggling.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 The real artsy folks around me are way into this glitchy computer crashing type stuff but I don't really feel the new in it, people have been doing glitch for ages and to me it all sounds the same.

Same here. I'm not hearing anything production-wise which people weren't doing a couple of decades ago. Meh, not that I care. People can do all the glitching and production techniquery they like, each to their own. There's still plenty of good music from people who don't get lost in all that stuff.

So the loudness war was all a conspiracy. The useof more than 2 bass sounds was something unprecedentec even a decade ago. There are so many examples I just think you arent listening.

If we get into a discussion of what consitutes "new" we could be here for years. Is pushing a compressor's ratio knob way higher "new"? Is adding a twentieth "bass" sound "new", as opposed to adding a twentieth drum sound, or a twentieth "synth" sound?

Are we talking in terms of "mainstream" artists, or "nobody at all, no matter how mad-geniusy they were, had ever tried anything like this before Year XX"?

Sure, I can point to changes here and there, but I'd have a hard time definitively stating "this particular sound, or technique, has no precedent".

In the end, to me it doesn't matter whether any aspect of production is new or not. If a song has a catchy melody, I'll give it some ear time. Genre doesn't really matter.

And that is your own taste. Part of why we listen to music is that itf reinforces our expectation. But as an artist, doing what has already been done makes no sense. Even from a listener perspective, why listen to new music unless there is something new. You claim it isnt important yet you still seak new music imagine. And so I do think production matters even to those thatg claim its all about the tune which I think is just trying to go against the grain and overall trend for the last 30 years.

I'm more than happy to listen to people doing something slightly differently, production wise, but the melody comes first for me. And luckily there are still artists where that matters to them.

For other artists, like squarepusher, noisia etc, production technique is the only thing going on. Only when they're doing a remix does a melody stay in there (unless they can find a way to drop it).

For me, what these artists are doing is irrelevant; meaningless.

Maybe it is just me, but I hope catchy pop/dance tunes continue to find more listeners than glitch/noise artists.

I think if you studied harmony for even a year, the novelty of a catchy melody will fade rather quick. Melodies are like micro djing at this point. Just plug one in. THey are all the same with some rather small variation.

Hey look, I totally agree with you about melodies. Many popular melodies share a heap of similarities. And I'm totally fine with that - I'll happily listen to a catchy melody which is only one or two notes/ timings different to another catchy melody I've heard before.

I just find it unfortunate that some artists don't take the couple of seconds to quickly "micro dj" a melody into their song and have it appeal to so many more people.

On the other hand, if I could paraphrase you, it sums up my thoughts on production perfectly:

I think if you studied music production for even a year, the novelty of an interesting production technique will fade rather quick. Production techniques are like micro djing at this point. Just plug one in. THey are all the same with some rather small variation.

There are no new techniques, it's only ever small variations on what has been done before, by someone, in some genre.

Playing with the impro-visor software is also a fun way to beat the shit out of some melodies. You can put a chord in and then set up a genre and artist style and it will just spit out music in a surprising example of artificial creativity.

Perhaps there are more novel harmonies out there in the microtonal world.

that "will we ever run out of music" video that was posted in another thread is another thing worth looking at if you're curious about harmonies and how to find novelty in them.


I'm kind of on the fence on the whole novelty thing. I mean, I really enjoy playing with csound and have tried the algorithmic automations and stuff (so far it has yielded little worth sharing), but I feel like too much departure from the norm causes one to lose touch with their audience a bit.

At the end of the day, the goal of a track is to make a mark on this dance culture we are all participating in. What we really want to make is that stunning track that drives crowds into dancing frenzy and radiates the vibe of all vibes. The hard part is generating that magical awesome feeling in crowds that have gone numb to the tracks that provided it in years past. Part of me thinks that doing this requires us to assimilate into the styles that these new crowds are into rather than pulling out some esoteric new texture that they will likely have trouble relating to.

But I just can't do it, I can't get into wubwubs and appealing to this rager bro demographic, but I also can't stand the other side of that coin, the pretentious hipster types, so I don't know what the hell to do except make stuff that I like and see if it flies.

I guess that is the golden question isn't it, finding a new way to musically convey feelings aside from the standard chord sequences and buildup structure.

Hey I found a novel way to really fall in love with music again. At Xmas at a party the Wii dance game was being played. Hits from past and present one after another making people go wild with fun.

One of the popular ones was by Shrillex, I forget the track name. This was being played next to things like 'The Final Countdown', and fuck knows what.

Probably seems like a dumn comment this, but I dunno, sometimes I forget just how powerful and evocative music actually is.

I also saw The Manic Street Preachers world tour on TV - song after song that had massive male female audiences in tears of joy and emmotional havoc. Again just reminded me how powerful this music stuff can be.

I did notice on thier tracks the bass root note often went to what I percieve to be quite unusual places in relation to the melody which kept giving me a sense of surprise and awe.
I was pissed tho.........

quote:

Originally posted by derail There are no new techniques, it's only ever small variations on what has been done before, by someone, in some genre.

I just mentioned some rather simple yet new. The fact that technology allows routing never before possible opens so many doors.

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