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Again Karim it is laughable that you think you can have a dog in this fight when talking about the US. You have no idea how bad it is here apparently.

The infrastructure in this country is falling apart at the seams and the only entities that are capable of funding the repair and replacement (and hopefully the improvement) of that infrastructure is government through tax money.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit so ? I think the bigger problem is people that borrow money, don't pay it back and then declare bankruptcy. This is far worse than "hoarding" money over generations. If that hoarded money isn't invested; inflation will take care of it very quickly. Not to mention day to day expenses and high cost assets that require maintenance (money that goes back into the system). Watch a documentary on lottery winners and how they easily blow all their money in a span of less than 10 years.

I'm very aware of what happens to most lottery winners. My comment was in response to your claim that most people in the elite have worked hard for that. I am responding that no, a lot of them haven't.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit So by increasing taxation that's suppose to encourage investing? I'll use myself as an example again. last year i earned less than 50k salary before taxes, and managed to add an extra 16% extra (about 7.5K in gains) from investing before taxes. Now unfortunately that wasn't all in my tax free account, but had i been taxed my full marginal rate, i wouldn't bother investing. There are also stock options that corporations give to their regular employees which they can match your contribution from your salary. when you sell those as well, you do not want to be paying full marginal rates. Anyways, that's just my point of view; albeit biased as i do prefer to diversify where my income comes from.

Where did I say that increasing taxation would encourage investing? Stephen's point was that the elite are able to make more money than poor people, are taxed less than poor people, and don't need to do any work to get any of this, and (I'm presuming) that perhaps it would be more fair to tax the rich at a higher rate in light of this. You responded glibly that the poor should simply invest more of their money. If they could do this, they wouldn't be poor! Your argument is basically:



It's both douchey and not a solution to the problem.

Furthermore, I would encourage anyone to show me any evidence where this idea of trickle down economics has ever worked.

If you do that I will show you the literally hundreds (and thousands of national years when looking at countries at the same time) of years of evidence that taxation and then government investment have done wonders for economies.

So show me the evidence to why you feel your view on economics is right. I guarantee you that you will not find a single credible example of where Austrian style economics (which is what I am seeing offered here by a lot of people) works. You can't. You are in the same camp as flat earthers, creationists, and climate-change deniers. A bunch of fucking jokers who want to just get away with what suits them best.

Disgusting.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Furthermore, I would encourage anyone to show me any evidence where this idea of trickle down economics has ever worked. If you do that I will show you the literally hundreds (and thousands of national years when looking at countries at the same time) of years of evidence that taxation and then government investment have done wonders for economies. So show me the evidence to why you feel your view on economics is right. I guarantee you that you will not find a single credible example of where Austrian style economics (which is what I am seeing offered here by a lot of people) works. You can't. You are in the same camp as flat earthers, creationists, and climate-change deniers. A bunch of fucking jokers who want to just get away with what suits them best. Disgusting.

Trickle down only works if you have connections. And again, you fail to prove that the infrastructure in the states is that bad. It isn't. You obviously have never seen what a Russian road looks like or Mexican. I wouldn't expect for the US to have roads like Germany cause Germans are good drivers. But for the numbers of drivers the states have, they have some really good roads.

And the government receives more than enough money to fix everything. They can't cause most of the money goes over shores to bank accounts of lawmakers. Or the lawmakers give jobs to contractors that charge ten times the price of what the work would cost anybody else. Corruption works.

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Originally posted by zGoogleman Trickle down only works if you have connections. And again, you fail to prove that the infrastructure in the states is that bad. It isn't. You obviously have never seen what a Russian road looks like or Mexican. I wouldn't expect for the US to have roads like Germany cause Germans are good drivers. But for the numbers of drivers the states have, they have some really good roads. And the government receives more than enough money to fix everything. They can't cause most of the money goes over shores to bank accounts of lawmakers. Or the lawmakers give jobs to contractors that charge ten times the price of what the work would cost anybody else. Corruption works.

And you are a conspiracy nutjob who should play in the streets, preferably one of our highways, and get hit, preferably by a private automobile.

That or die in a fire. Either one would be a more productive use of electricity than you ranting about a level of corruption that doesn't exist.

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Originally posted by Lews I'm very aware of what happens to most lottery winners. My comment was in response to your claim that most people in the elite have worked hard for that. I am responding that no, a lot of them haven't.

i disagree. my point about the lottery winners is that if you aren't well versed in saving and earining (most importantly saving) the money goes back into the system very quickly; whether its for maintaining expensive assets or simply blowing it all on frivolous things. So even if someone inherits a shitload of money; they should be entitled to it, as most probably this is the intitial earners choice (should be fair as it is their earned money to delegate out!)

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Where did I say that increasing taxation would encourage investing?

you didn't, but by that response i assume you want to decrease investment; because that's exactly what increasing taxation on investment will do. Especially those who are trying to break into alternative income means.


conversely, your graphic about buying more money; i would consider myself lower to middle income; and yes i would like to buy more money with my money ie invest it. I think everyone should learn to save and diversify their income methods and especially add risk to their portfolio at a younger age. I also find it amusing that as an investor yourself you don't promote this type of lifestyle.


The first thing that most americans need to learn however is to live within their means. before you can earn you have to learn to save.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit The first thing that most americans need to learn however is to live within their means. before you can earn you have to learn to save.

You really have no idea how it is do you?

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Again Karim it is laughable that you think you can have a dog in this fight when talking about the US. You have no idea how bad it is here apparently. The infrastructure in this country is falling apart at the seams and the only entities that are capable of funding the repair and replacement (and hopefully the improvement) of that infrastructure is government through tax money.

well you can be thankful for mitt romneys 1.9 million dollar contribution to taxation; and on the same tken dissapointed at your shitty bank system with loose lending policies; exacerbated by ignorant americans living beyond their means being dooped into sub prime mortgages / defaulting on their loans.


its a bitch to borrow money in canada; but looking at the US i should be thankful. i agree i do not have a dog in this fight.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit dooped

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit I don't think you give enough weight to a dollar being a dollar. He made that dollar fair and square AND he is contributing more money towards taxation than over 130 people making 50,000 dollars lets say on an average tax rate of 30%. 130 fucking people! Now sure that marginal rate seems low, but if all his money is comming from investments that's fair.

Bullshit. My whole point is about the weight of dollar, and that material goods don't upwardly change price relative to what you earn, which is why anyone making 8 figures A YEAR should damn well pay more. It's absurd that I pay proportionately more tax than him and I employ four people to do it. By those ratios he contributes literally fuck all to the economy.

Have you actually look at and understood how Romney made his money?

You don't "earn" half a billion dollars working in finance and restructuring.

You (to take the phrase you keep applying to taxes) gouge it out of businesses and the people working for them.

You do as Mitt did; You buy companies that are struggling and gut them of any expense so they look like a turkey that has been force fed with butter, then sell it on because for a few moments, it looks good on paper. Then a year later it folds because anything of any worth was stripped from it.

And he then takes an incredibly high fee from supplying this amazing service, further causing debt and default for any other invested parties.

He does next to nothing to contribute to the economy with his actions; If he lived in virtually any other country he would be paying something like $25m a year in taxes, and guess what? He'd still have $2m a month to live off, and that's not including his existing fortune - I'm just talking new money.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit If you did the same thing with less money you as well would be paying an even lower rate than you currently pay. so why cry about it? why don't you do the same thing. See how easy it is to make your earnings 95% capital gains. Try to make them even 10%; and you'll realize the necessity of having investments taxed at a low rate.

It's not difficult to make money from investments and the thing is, the more you have the easier it gets, and that again is another reason
you should be taxed more if you earn more. Your ability to create wealth increases with wealth.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit We have the right idea in canada where we can actually have accounts which we can invest TAX FREE. thats right. I can turn 25,000 to 50,000 to 100,000 without paying a dime in tax. Why does the canadian govt do this? because they want to stimulate the economy with investments.

Yep, good idea for small investors and that's why Canada caps them. They understand that small investors actually contribute, and that large/huge investors do not contribute in the same way or proportionately.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit If everyone just sat there and hoarded their money in their pocket, there would be no opportunity, no demand for goods and probably a shit load of deflation.

No one is suggesting that for a second. Hoarding capital is bad for economies, and thereing lies the problem with the fallacy of trickle down economics. Fewer and fewer people have a larger share of the wealth, which IS tantamount to hoarding. As both the current climate and history has shown us, individuals with massive wealth do not contribute to an economy anywhere near as well as many people with some wealth.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit I think people need to stop harping on those that do well and make a good life for themselves and instead look at some of those people who truly are destroying the economy; Particularily those who are severely living beyond their means. Those who declare bankrupcy and drain their debts on society; those who hold tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debts. Those who drain the welfare system buy the newest iphone and then complain about corporations and unfair taxrates slothing around in their burkenstocks.

The "takers" are an easy target so let's just nip that conversation right there, but I agree that many people live beyond their means and that's not good (although actually it is good for banks as they make far more money off these people than good borrowers but that's a different subject).

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit I don't earn six figures, i earn 5. And i can sometimes get an overall tax rate of less than 11 % (last year) that's my total taxes paid divided by my total income earned after investments as well (which was 30% of my annual income). I can't live off investing income, but i'm damn happy that the government doesnt gouge me to shit with taxes to the point where i'm unable to diversify my income. I also pay a mortgage which i don't write off, so the extra income comes in handy. So there you have it. 2012 i paied less income tax than mitt romney; i don't see him complaining.

Yep, but you can't buy a new car with one hour's worth of pay and he can. See where I'm going? you shouldn't have a high tax burden, he should, because, simply put he can afford it and then some. In fact he earns more in a day that you do in a year, yet, you think he should be rewarded with a lower tax rate because somehow he personal fortune (that is certainly personal) contributes to the economy.

Sorry but there's simply no logic, other than you're defending your own breed, which is kinda dumb as he wouldn't give you the steam off his shit on a cold winter's day. And again, this is where the Romney's and the Bush's and the GOP in general have done such a good job of selling a dream you'll never own. "Like me, defend me, because I'm rich and you could be too if you just believed".

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit The mortgage holders who are partially the victims are also to blame for the downturn (Don't forget that). You are fucking leveraging yourlself to shit with your house thinking that it can only go up in value? Thats like thinking the stock market only goes up. Your house is 1 big fucking stock that you live in. No more no less. Then when the going gets tough and your mortgage is worth more than hte value of the house - you default? Well thank you very much; had i knew what i fucking knew now then i would have shorted the fucking dow all the way to 7k. back in 08

Agree - people were complete idiots about property, but in terms of value and signing up to loan products they simply couldn't afford. Both consumers and banks were totally to blame. I know two people who lost their dream houses but now the dust has settled, they look back and go "what was I thinking". People knew they were out of their depth but thought they could chance it. Now that everyone has had a relaity check they look back and say i'll never take a risk like that again.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit anyways a bit of a rant here. Just want to vocalize that there are two sides to the story here. And the fact is that mitt romney still paid a shit load of taxes; more than that of 130 medium to high income earners combined. Do i think we need some more regulation ? yes. Higher marginal tax rates? perhaps. Higher investment taxation? definitely not.

There are but as I said before, I know a couple of high net worth people in other countries who pay high tax rates and it's both admirable and inspiring to see them absoluely fine and nearly their "duty" to pay a higher tax rate.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby And you are a conspiracy nutjob who should play in the streets, preferably one of our highways, and get hit, preferably by a private automobile. That or die in a fire. Either one would be a more productive use of electricity than you ranting about a level of corruption that doesn't exist.

are you kidding me nou??? you dont think there is corruption? what world do you live on? You have been way too hidden in your basement for wayy too long. some countries dont have little corruption but some are supported on it.

I just think its funny all of you think this woprld should be fair. Oh they were born into money so thy should be taxed harder but those that made it on their own, ya, thats a grey area.


welcome to the real world...Nothing is fair. Either learn to play the cards your dealt or don't get anything you want in this life.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy I just think its funny all of you think this woprld should be fair. Oh they were born into money so thy should be taxed harder but those that made it on their own, ya, thats a grey area. welcome to the real world...Nothing is fair. Either learn to play the cards your dealt or don't get anything you want in this life.

economics, taxation, redistribution etc are human constructs. we can design such systems in any way we choose, with any goals (fairness?) in mind that we wish. human society is not synonymous with the darwinism of the natural world.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN economics, taxation, redistribution etc are human constructs. we can design such systems in any way we choose, with any goals (fairness?) in mind that we wish. human society is not synonymous with the darwinism of the natural world.

I understand that, but destroying motivation is a good way to destroy an economy

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy I understand that, but destroying motivation is a good way to destroy an economy

So if you were taxed at a significantly higher rate than you are today you'd just stop working and go be a bum on the streets.

Highly unlikely.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy I understand that, but destroying motivation is a good way to destroy an economy

well sure, i agree with that sentiment. i disagree however that higher tax rates on wealthier individuals necessarily destroys motivation.

I understand that too however government gives incentives and tax breaks in certain areas in order to motivate people to spend their money in certain ways to help boost the economy....in theory. However I am a Canadian and our government does intervene a whole lot more than in the states.

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Originally posted by Vivid Boy I understand that too however government gives incentives and tax breaks in certain areas in order to motivate people to spend their money in certain ways to help boost the economy....in theory. However I am a Canadian and our government does intervene a whole lot more than in the states.

Except there is almost no proof that private individuals, especially in this day and age are significant contributors to economic growth based solely on their private income. Its smoke and mirrors for people that want to continue to accumulate more wealth than they, or the next 4 generations of their family could possibly ever spend. It is a way to create a new privileged class that will, over time, become more and more slovenly and uninitiated and even more unlikely to actually use their own personal money to grow the economy.

This is how you return to serfdom. It is not the way forward.

I would love to go into case studies like Ontario's Wine industry and show you plain examples were tax breaks, grants and bursaries revitalized a dead industry and the whole story of ice wine. However, I write essays for school not for ta lol. you can do your own research.

Once again though Canada takes a way bigger hands on approach with its government so we are kind of comparing Apples to Oranges here.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby And you are a conspiracy nutjob who should play in the streets, preferably one of our highways, and get hit, preferably by a private automobile. That or die in a fire. Either one would be a more productive use of electricity than you ranting about a level of corruption that doesn't exist.

You're one of those stupid Americans that believes there is no corruption in the states. Exactly why Americans are the best populace for a dictator.

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Originally posted by zGoogleman You're one of those stupid Americans that believes there is no corruption in the states. Exactly why Americans are the best populace for a dictator.

Why would I argue with someone who fucking can't read english well enough to even establish what I said?

Seriously, play in a busy street.

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Originally posted by zGoogleman You're one of those stupid Americans that believes there is no corruption in the states. Exactly why Americans are the best populace for a dictator.

And you think without control everyone will just fix themselves and act correctly?

im lost are we talking about corruption like faulty contracts and corrupt spending of money? or are we talking about conspiracy tehories like 9/11.

i thought we were talkign straight up ordinary corruption...which exists like crazy.

I'm trying to figure it out.

haha beecause nou called him an idiot for even mentioning corrupt contracts. I know on a personal basis that shit happens all the time!

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