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quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL I was speaking in general, I have friends from a just about every country in the world, and nothing saddens me more when they hate each other simple because of history, or parental brainwashing that they are greater. Maybe I just dont see the sense in being proud of something that you had little to no part of, what if you were born somewhere else?

Hmmm ok I can see that. Basing hate on history is pretty ignorant. I mean I can kinda understand why some old people hate Germans or Japanese people and refuse to buy their products because they went through WWII and had tramautizing experiences but I don't condone passing on those feelings to their kids or teaching it in school. Oh well ... ignorance runs rampant in the masses hahaha. As for being proud of something that you have a little or no part of ... I kinda disagree. What about being proud of your college or a sports team? I mean you kind of have very little or no part in it but you're associated to it in a very personnel way. Being proud of your country is simply that on a higher level.

i just got back from work, haha.. so much reading... i'm glad this hasn't degenerated into some mud-slinging flame-fest. thanks for all the great posts like abtsportsline's. i'm glad everyone came in with some good insights which is, after all, what a good debate should accomplish.

so many posts, haha.. i'm lost.. i have nothing left to say...

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Originally posted by ABTsportsline sorry John but i don't understand this.... we gathered the intelligence where they kept their munitions, where the certain webs of the Al Qaeda were located - we did not tell them to shoot upon surrender!

you might not have told them what to do. But, you(the US) aided and abetted. You turned a blind eye as people were killed. Granted, this is a war, and people are going to die, i understand that. But to say that you are not responsible for the actions of the NA is tantamount to saying that a general is not responsible for the actions of his soldiers.

The only differnce here is they were not only informed, but armed by you (http://www.observer.co.uk/afghanist...,587433,00.html), and followed loosely their own objectives. Which made it possible for the US to pass the dangerous job of first contact with ground forces onto another group of afghans they didn't particularly like. The strategy worked well, i will not deny that, i just don't think it's fair to say you are not responsible for these people's actions.

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline JohnSmith originally missed my point about the "innocent" casualties... i don't always find them too innocent if they're trying to kill you first...

No, i didn't miss the point, i am aware of the situation presented to soldiers abroad, and that it's difficult to tell an innocent civilian from a civilian that is looking to kill you, especially when the military is not using uniforms. And i realize, some mistakes will be made. Killing civillians is sometimes unavoidable, and whether they are innocent or not is debatable at best. These are all facts i consider to be common sense, although, you are right, the media does not always portray it this way.

The fact is civilian casualties are growing more and more common.


At the beginning of the twentieth century between 85 and 90 percent of war deaths were military. By WWII over half of all war deaths were civilians, including deaths camps, massacres, and bombing raids on cities. At the end of the twentieh centry, about 3 quarters of war deaths are civillians.


Source: The State of War and Peace Atlas
this book is about 4 years old, but it has good reliable information, and was published by the international peace research institute in oslo.

It goes on to say however that "Figures for war deaths are at best unreliable. Most people killed in war are civilians but in most wars there is no agency responsible for counting civilian war deaths. Casualty figures are routinely maniuplated for propaganda purposes.

so, i didn't miss your point.

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline And finally, the last thing that everyone forgets about, you NEVER hear published (b/c its GOOD stuff that the USA does...) is the food and relief drops... We send hundreds of military doctors over there to take care of the citizens of Afghanistan (non-Taliban supporters obviously), have had food drops of well over one million pounds of food already, and airmen who distribute this food to all of the families there, and all the smiles on all the (in many cases) toothless-faces. These parts are great, but for some reason you never hear about them....

I am completely aware of this, and i think it's great. However, there were a few instances early on i remember where they were dropping bombs and food simultaneously, in packages that looked very alike.. can't find the link right now, but i think that situation was rectified pretty quickly anyway. Also the food drops were not very effective because of afghan warlods getting ahold of the food before the people could.

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline FYI the air strikes in Afghanistan were being organized and run by the U.N. - remember this was an operation that was approved and organized by them... granted, the US supplied about 85% of the hardware.... i distinctly remember walking down the flightline and seeing all different flags on the side of the fighters... i remember seeing a LOT of U.K., some German, and some French (believe it or not) .... there is no "I" in team! A whole lot of us worked together on that battle - yet no one attacks the U.N. or the other countries involved... its back to what i'm saying - the U.S. is an easy press target.

yes, i understand, it was supported by the UN. however, nobody is attacking the UN, because they show restraint, and don't react to quickly. As can be shown in their current hesitation to authorize military action against iraq. The US on the other hand is by far the most influential country in the UN, and they usually get what they want from them. Bush words about the UN needing to show it's use, or prove itself irrelevant (or something like that) have never rang truer. The UN is there to stop exactly this type of attack, and i think they are doing a great job.

quote:

Originally posted by miss_e didnt read the whole thread...shouldnt really be here in TA// should be doing hw, and my lab report..but anyways why people hate america?.. its got to be the damn american pride.. its good to be patriotic but an overbearing amount of nationalism is just plain sick. why does the states have to be the center of the world?

eh, and all of the other countries have no patriotism at all for their own countries... get a life, every countries has it's fanboys, America is no exception, so get off your high horse, this isn't why people hate america...

America is one of the most open nations in the world for immigration for example... compared to some strong nationalism present in European countries.... French for the French, Germany for the Germans, etc. There is patriotism in Europe, but most Europeans cant see past their own nose when it comes to international politics.

----- however back to the topic
I'll tell you why people hate America.

It's our disgusting, filthy culture we export across the world... if you watch any music video with idiots sporting gold chains and thuggin, you will understand how our culture has degraded, and why others resent us... cause we Americans are pretty pathetic in this department.

top that off with our alliance with Israel & sanctions on Iraq, and we got the whole arab world in an uproar.

at the same time, canada and the states were colonized around the same time +-100 years or so, only a few hundred years ago. keep in mind, these places in europe, have been around for a LOT LOT LOT LOT longer, so they have had a chance to develop a truly unique history and culture. (i could care less about seeing "old" buildings here.. i go to europe, check out statues which are from the year 600, and that impresses me).

that isnt talking about the gold chains shit you mentioned, but i think since we, and canada, are relatively new countries, thats part of why both of our countries have a hard time having a culture beyond shallow stereotypes (canadians: hockey, whatever... americans: football and fast food, i dunno)

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Originally posted by mndeg you must not live here, they did try to hit the whitehouse, people on the plane crashed the plane trying to stop the terrorists (THEY LANDED IN A FIELD)

that was a theory, they dont know for sure where that plane was headed. Many speculated the white house because of the symbolism involved.

quote:

Originally posted by sothis that isnt talking about the gold chains shit you mentioned, but i think since we, and canada, are relatively new countries, thats part of why both of our countries have a hard time having a culture beyond shallow stereotypes (canadians: hockey, whatever... americans: football and fast food, i dunno)

feudalism & chivalry formed the foundations of european culture... then came the Americans, essentially a bastardization of european culture... essentially, we tossed the chivalry but kept the feudalism... (rich lords (corporations/oil barons)... kings(presidents) & all those kickbacks that keep the rich rich... just like in classical feudalism. The powerful elite have cleaver ways of dividing people so that their wealth isn't threatened.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith The fact is civilian casualties are growing more and more common. At the beginning of the twentieth century between 85 and 90 percent of war deaths were military. By WWII over half of all war deaths were civilians, including deaths camps, massacres, and bombing raids on cities. At the end of the twentieh centry, about 3 quarters of war deaths are civillians. Source: The State of War and Peace Atlas this book is about 4 years old, but it has good reliable information, and was published by the international peace research institute in oslo. It goes on to say however that "Figures for war deaths are at best unreliable. Most people killed in war are civilians but in most wars there is no agency responsible for counting civilian war deaths. Casualty figures are routinely maniuplated for propaganda purposes. so, i didn't miss your point.

Well that study makes sense, if I had thought about it sooner, I would have logically concluded the same thing without a study... several reasons why...

in WW2 combatants introduced capret bombing/v2 rockets & atomic bombs, no longer is one safe in their own home... landmines probably also play a factor, but not as much as the others.

When you bomb countries from 10,000 feet in the air, you dont have direct view of what you are actually hitting, even smart bombs cant make corrections for faulty intelligence, dud bombs, etc. This explains a lot about why civilian casualties are on the rise.
Pre-WW2 we didn't have such long range killing devices, a lot of fighting was up close. It helps being able to see civilians to avoid killing them in the first place, so the longer range our missiles get, the less we know about who we are killing.

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quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith you might not have told them what to do. But, you(the US) aided and abetted. You turned a blind eye as people were killed. Granted, this is a war, and people are going to die, i understand that. But to say that you are not responsible for the actions of the NA is tantamount to saying that a general is not responsible for the actions of his soldiers. The only differnce here is they were not only informed, but armed by you (http://www.observer.co.uk/afghanist...,587433,00.html), and followed loosely their own objectives. Which made it possible for the US to pass the dangerous job of first contact with ground forces onto another group of afghans they didn't particularly like. The strategy worked well, i will not deny that, i just don't think it's fair to say you are not responsible for these people's actions.

point taken, but how can you hold the US as the main propagator here and not hold the northern alliance responsible? you don't see any "northern alliance" hate threads, etc... no one ever even talks about them. If a burgler held up a store and shot some people while doing it, and the getaway driver drives him away when he escapes, thats like blaming the driver for everything.... catch my analogy? while the USA may be the getaway driver, we didn't condone the extent of their actions... the driver had no idea the burgler was going to pop some people in there - they both just wanted the money. You can't sit there and point fingers at the US for these actions when we didn't actually DO the crimes... in war there is no "aiding and abetting"... its the person that inflicts the damage that is guilty... remember the rules of war are much different than real life..

and as far as the casualties list goes, i don't doubt that at all... i rather agree with it, and here's why: the way we fight wars is far greater than we used to... there are no ground wars anymore, everything is air strikes... maybe a few SEALs go in and take out snipers, but its all air force now... WWII and WWI saw huge ground wars, wars of attrition, where you run out of your foxhole into fire... hence the high casualties on the military side - nowadays there are few casualties military side b/c there isn't much of a ground war anymore - the stats have changed b/c war has changed.

As far as civilians getting killed - i think it is a tragedy. Do not get me wrong. But the problem is you won't have all JUST terrorists (or enemies, however you want to look at it) in ONE location, and ALL civilians in another - they will always intermix so you can't tell them apart. Its unfortunate for the civilians, but its even more evil of the terrorists to do that to their own people. Saddam Hussein (smart man, wrong intentions) has HIS OWN PEOPLE surround his weapons depots... because he thinks we won't bomb them if there are 'innocent' civilians around there... what kind of leadership is that? What kind of love of fellow country men is that? That is needlessly sacrificing other people's lives for your own desires. Anyway, this is unrelated....

Miss e - i am VERY surprised that a korean would have issues with the USA... do you have any idea what our country has done for yours??? (i'm assuming you are from south korea....) do you understand how many AMERICAN lives have been lost to keep YOUR freedom? that statement you made makes me downright sick.... i can understand about being sick of hearing about US culture if you are from a country that has nothing to do with the US - has never used/needed the US for anything, but south korea? I think you should educate yourself a little on the history of your own country and politics and see WHY there is so much american influence there.... If we hadn't stepped in during the 50's and defended you from the north, you would be living under communist rule not having any of the free-market items you could dream about (computer inclusive?).... you are failing to see that the US hasn't 'forced' its culture on you - it has freed your society to make THEIR OWN choices! now granted, b/c there were so many americans over there, the US influence is great - your people may have adopted many of the US's ways, clothes, music, what have you - but that was a choice made by your people! (partly b/c of change, appreciation, what have you). But we don't force our culture on anybody - we don't send rappers to every country and force them to listen.... sad truth is (and this IS sad b/c i can't stand hip hop) that if any country adopts any american culture, 9 times out of 10 its the youth adopting the "bad-boy" hip-hop crap...
Again, all assuming you are from south korea... if you are north korean, WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON A COMPUTER?!!! GET OFF AND GO TO WORK! haha, jk.

Peace in the middle east,
-ABT-

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quote:

Originally posted by Verona^My When you bomb countries from 10,000 feet in the air, you dont have direct view of what you are actually hitting, even smart bombs cant make corrections for faulty intelligence, dud bombs, etc. This explains a lot about why civilian casualties are on the rise. Pre-WW2 we didn't have such long range killing devices, a lot of fighting was up close. It helps being able to see civilians to avoid killing them in the first place, so the longer range our missiles get, the less we know about who we are killing.

And the less we care about who we are killing. Imagine back in the old days, having to stab someone with your sword. You'd think twice about who you were killing. Nowadays, we can kill people by pressing a button, and won't even have to see any blood. If we made a mistake, we just say "sorry!" and come up with excuses.

quote:

I'll tell you why people hate America. It's our disgusting, filthy culture we export across the world... if you watch any music video with idiots sporting gold chains and thuggin, you will understand how our culture has degraded, and why others resent us... cause we Americans are pretty pathetic in this department. top that off with our alliance with Israel & sanctions on Iraq, and we got the whole arab world in an uproar.

haha. Well, the second point holds more truth, but yeah, I'm sick of how Canadian music stations copycat MTV and bring that trash over here. But thats no reason to hate a nation, I think its because of the many wars the US gets into that they really don't have any business getting into. Sometimes its a good thing, WWI and WWII, even though they were kinda dragged into it. Othertimes its just plain stupid, ie sticking their foot in Vietnam, 50,000+ American soldiers, millions of vietnamese, and no one knows why. Kuwait and Kosovo were made to look like good intentions. But of course you're gonna make Serb and Iraqi enemies. Then there's the Israel thing you mentioned, of course Palestineans and their Arab allies aren't gonna like the US very much. And then there are those other military operations brushed under the carpet that no one knows about except for the few who actually follow this stuff.

The media might make you sick of US influence, and being in the spotlight gives you many many critics, but its when your mother and brother get blown apart by weapons that say "Made in the USA," backed by a nation of people chanting "USA! USA! USA!" living in their nice queit home on the ranch, watching television and driving SUV's, with kids running around saying "nuke the sonofabitches!" while you're mourning your mother and brother's death under a sky filled with war jets and bombs dropped, it is then that a TRUE hate festers inside you. Regardless of what regime you live under, and what you might have faced from your opressive leader, the fact still remains that your family was shattered, and their life was dictated by someone sitting in his comfy chair halfway across the world... you won't find them saying "Oh thank you for freeing our country, I forgive you for destroying my home and family, but at least I can enjoy all your western goods and services!"

Fortunately, I have the luxury of sitting in my university dorm in the peace of night and speculating on such issues, fortuante that my parents escaped such brutal times in brutal places, and built a safe life for me in the western world.

So now we've received news that war plans are in the making, and that invasion into Iraq is pretty much ineviteable if they balk one more time at weapons inspections.

...sigh...

And now we hear that N. Korea (a.k.a. "axis of evil"- Christ I hate that statement!) has been developing nuclear weapons, and severs ties with the Clinton 1994 treaty. I truly believe that there couldn't have been better news for Bush's posse and the Pentagon. There's so many targets for those trigger-happy kids now, they just don't know what to do with themselves. Hold down Mr. Happy with one hand, while pulling the trigger with the other perhaps.

God just needs to just torch this place and walk away. Then again, we might just beat him to it.........

I'm sorry that some of ya'll see America that way. I have never known a person in my life say "us Americans are better." However i have seen Europeans say that Europe is better than America. Personally i don't give a rats ass. I have nothing to complain about because i have a good life and it doesn't matter to me which country is "better." I do wish that people wouldn't see Americans as stuck up people who think we are better than everyone. It must be only a few people who think that "we Americans are better" because again i have never known someone who has said that.

Its all good though bc i'm not like that and i'm far from stuck up. I usually get along with most people but oh well... Just stop trying to see us Americans in that way

Peace,
Tommy

quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL I was speaking in general, I have friends from a just about every country in the world, and nothing saddens me more when they hate each other simple because of history, or parental brainwashing that they are greater. Maybe I just dont see the sense in being proud of something that you had little to no part of, what if you were born somewhere else?

patriotic simply states ones love for their country..what happened on september 11 is more than enough reasons for any american to feel patriotic..imo..

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Originally posted by JohnSmith At the beginning of the twentieth century between 85 and 90 percent of war deaths were military. By WWII over half of all war deaths were civilians, including deaths camps, massacres, and bombing raids on cities. At the end of the twentieh centry, about 3 quarters of war deaths are civillians.

It's because wars nowadays often encompass non-military objectives. What was one of the main objectives of Germany in WW2? To exterminate the Jews. The Germans actually gave priority of rail transportation to the death camps over supplying their wn fighting troops. What does this statistic not mention? The multitude of wars in third world countries that oftentimes incorporate some kind of religious or racial idealogoly. The massacres in Rwanda resulted in the deaths of over 1 million civilians. So to try to apply this statistic to modern "civilized" warfare is ludicrous. Yes the US bombings in Afghanistan resulted in civlian deaths. But the days of carpet bombing and indescriminate attacks among civilized nations are over. There are simply to many repurcussions among the media to make sucha campaign feasible. So to say that the US inflicted casualties in Afghanistan were 3/4 civilans is ridiculous.

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Originally posted by occrider It's because wars nowadays often encompass non-military objectives. What was one of the main objectives of Germany in WW2? To exterminate the Jews. The Germans actually gave priority of rail transportation to the death camps over supplying their wn fighting troops. What does this statistic not mention? The multitude of wars in third world countries that oftentimes incorporate some kind of religious or racial idealogoly. The massacres in Rwanda resulted in the deaths of over 1 million civilians. So to try to apply this statistic to modern "civilized" warfare is ludicrous. Yes the US bombings in Afghanistan resulted in civlian deaths. But the days of carpet bombing and indescriminate attacks among civilized nations are over. There are simply to many repurcussions among the media to make sucha campaign feasible. So to say that the US inflicted casualties in Afghanistan were 3/4 civilans is ridiculous.

niiiiiicccceeeee!

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quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline the way we fight wars is far greater than we used to... there are no ground wars anymore, everything is air strikes... maybe a few SEALs go in and take out snipers, but its all air force now... WWII and WWI saw huge ground wars, wars of attrition, where you run out of your foxhole into fire... hence the high casualties on the military side - nowadays there are few casualties military side b/c there isn't much of a ground war anymore - the stats have changed b/c war has changed.

I shudder to hear you say that that we fight wars in a "greater" way..

I disagree that it's greater at all.
I think it's better having soldier in foxholes and ditches, at least the people who want to fight. it's better than aerial bombings where more innocent people die.

there are many more points i could make, but it's a waste of time.

for now, i am just listening to this,

http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl...spin20021011.rm

quote:

Originally posted by XxremedyxX I'm sorry that some of ya'll see America that way. I have never known a person in my life say "us Americans are better." However i have seen Europeans say that Europe is better than America. Personally i don't give a rats ass. I have nothing to complain about because i have a good life and it doesn't matter to me which country is "better." I do wish that people wouldn't see Americans as stuck up people who think we are better than everyone. It must be only a few people who think that "we Americans are better" because again i have never known someone who has said that. Its all good though bc i'm not like that and i'm far from stuck up. I usually get along with most people but oh well... Just stop trying to see us Americans in that way Peace, Tommy

I agree... I never thought Americans are better, nor know any of that thought. Europeans on the other hand have this smugness about them that just rubs me the wrong way. They think they're better than everyone else, especially the French.

quote:

Originally posted by SportTrance Crap. Another Canadian posting an "anti-American" post.......Though you may not feel this way, posting it at all simply states something. I've yet to see a thread started regarding America's views on Canada........why? answer: we really dont care

My, what a great post

the food dropping was all propoganda for CNN and NBC
they did it so they could make americans feel better about themselves make them think they as a country are good people (because they dropped food)

gee gee ignorance

i think i live in a region that some call "america".... but i dont know what the fuck that is... im not american!

to be honest... i do have problems with this "country's" nightmareish polocies and practices... luckily i have a fuck it attitude and i recognized long ago the untiy of mankind and the crazy fucking downward spiral that this shitty world is in...( not a pessimist, just a fucked up philosopher...)

quote:

Originally posted by SportTrance Eitherway, the amount of canada vs. america posts are getting ridiculous. All I see is a bunch of Canadians crying, about this, and that, and that, and this. My whole opinion on Canada in general, is unwillingly and naturally changing everytime I see new post of some Candian whining about our form of politics, or our ethics, among other things. What you guys expect to change, I don't know. But you guys aren't exactly on the top of our "most influental" list lol

hmmmmm...

1. Is there not some obvious degree of correlation between a person's choice to post in an "anti-American" thread, and their views regarding America?

2. Do you have any idea how many Canadians visit these boards? To get a quick idea, check out these regional forums: Toronto/Southern Ontario, Montreal, Western Canada.

3. Do the Canadians on Tranceaddict accurately represent the entire Canadian population?

Assuming you make rational and logical conclusions, the basis for your change in opinions/views concerning Canada seems to be flawed and ill-founded. If you disagree, check out an introductory statistics text and familiarize yourself with "selection bias"...

quote:

Originally posted by InsomnEac hmmmmm... 1. Is there not some obvious degree of correlation between a person's choice to post in an "anti-American" thread, and their views regarding America? 2. Do you have any idea how many Canadians visit these boards? To get a quick idea, check out these regional forums: Toronto/Southern Ontario, Montreal, Western Canada. 3. Do the Canadians on Tranceaddict accurately represent the entire Canadian population? Assuming you make rational and logical conclusions, the basis for your change in opinions/views concerning Canada seems to be flawed and ill-founded. If you disagree, check out an introductory statistics text and familiarize yourself with "selection bias"...

niceeeee

yeah everyone, take a chill pill.

just like most of the US people on the boards ignore this crap, most of the canadians arent actively bashing the US either...

its TRANCEaddict|

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy great post ABTsportsline! i was going to say about half of what you said on there but you went and doubled it. the part about the letter was nice and i especially wanted to say what you said about "innocent civilians" that died in afgan. how can you differentiate a civilian from a taliban member when the taliban doesnt wear any military uniform.... and your other examples... and also what i say time and time agian, we are at a higher moral ground because, unlike the terrorist, we do not INTENTANIALY target the civilian population.

You can tell some of the innocent civilians because they're a) wearing burkhas b) under 5 foot tall and not very hairy c) over the age of 50 or so. Independent organisations such as the Red Cross put Afghan civilian deaths higher than WTC deaths. And just because YOU can't tell whether someone is innocent or not doesn't mean they aren't. The fact is that the Taliban fortified civilian settlements. Not a nice thing to do, but they did it. And you bombed them.

Now, I'm not going to say that you should have done nothing, but you all have to be 100% fully aware of the consequences of any actions that you take, and it seems to me that a lot of Americans aren't.

My main complaint is that the US, after the WTC, had a lot of allies. It lost them because it's immediate reaction, instead of co=operation and friendship, was to start to boss people around and tell them that if they didn't co-operate they would suffer in some way. Well frankly, I'm not surprised that people feel as they do. I would. Being tough on those that have done you wrong, i.e. 95% of the Arab world, simply makes enemies of people who could have been your friends.

ABTsportsline - just because the UN (including many Americans) saved South Korea from communism doesn't mean that they have no right to criticise the US for something totally different. It's like when Americans write to the Times saying that we shouldn't criticise them because of WWII. Makes no sense whatsoever. It's not a personal issue at all, it's just a clear assessment of the facts.

Believe it or not, I believe that America is a force for good, support, in principle, a campaign against extremely dangerous Muslim extremism. But that doesn't mean that the US can do whatever it likes, and it makes it even more depressing when the US unwittingly stokes the fire that burnt it.

i need a haircut

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