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-- Why so many progressive posts????
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i feel the same, im not realy into progressive yet all the good threads are on it.
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| the reason why im saying this is because 90% of progressive fans were usually into trance long before they got into progressive never vise versa ..youll never see a progressive fan stop listening to progressive and get into epic trance... |
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| Originally posted by Vesa Congratulations for a good analogy. It makes it easier to discuss this subject further. I think I have a possible explanation. But it's going to be very long. Much too long for most readers. Sorry. Some problems just do not permit a short and easy explanation. There are two aspects of the music hobby. First, everybody has a personal favourite soundscape that he likes to hear for enjoyment (i.e. people get good feelings from their favourite genre). Second, there's analysis of artistic values in music, which appeals to intelligence instead of feelings. This analytical aspect may be partly independent of personal preference (i.e. it's objective to some extent). Those who are studying aesthetics of arts can probably explain this in a more rigorous fashion (I don't have such education so I'm only talking about this based on common sense). People develop their own favourite soundscape during some part of their life. I don't know if it's partly innate, or is developed entirely during the childhood, or develops throughout a person's life. Let's take a couple of stereotypes as examples: the favourite soundscape of Africans is drums playing complex rhythms; the favourite soundscape of European bourgeois circles is Western melodic music. Of course, these are just stereotypes, and apply only to part of the population. But nevertheless people learn to appreciate those kind of musical elements which are prevalent in their culture. I don't know if the favourite soundscape changes during the different stages of the life span, or if it's quite constant. At least it's well-known that each generation has their own soundscape, so that would suggest that the favourite soundscape is learned very early in life, and will not change much after that. Thus I predict that electronica fans will be listening to similar music even when they are 70 years old. The soundscapes of melodic trance and progressive are very different. Trance fans like melodies, changes of intensity, layers of sounds and basic 4/4 beat. Progressive is a much more versatile genre. It's hard to say, but I think some of the most appealing elements are groovy rhythm, forward-moving basslines, idiosyncratic strange sounds, introduction of musical elements in complex mathematical ways, radical changes during the tune (i.e. changing the focus from one musical element to another). Because the soundscapes are so different it's likely that a progressive person will never change to trance. He gets good feelings from the progressive soundscape, and there are very few of those elements in melodic trance. On the other hand. there may be some similar elements in house and techno, so progressive people probably get good feelings from some house and techno tracks. As mentioned in previous posts, all evidence we have supports this prediction. So the question is why a trance person can change to progressive and never go back? The answer can be found in the other aspect of music hobby: progressive appeals to the intelligent mind. Here the satisfaction comes from analysing the artistic values in progressive. Note the difference between feeling and intelligence here. It's very familiar to me. Before I got to know the world of electronica, I played ordinary music with guitar. For 10 years my favourite soundscape was always the same: melodic improvisation based on European folk music. That was the only kind of music that ever appealed to my feelings. But much of the stuff I played was different, and was targeted to my intelligent mind: I explored everything from Argentinian tango to classical music, from heavy rock to flamenco, from blues to modern jazz. Quite typical for a guitarist. I simply wanted to discover all different types of musical elements. I think it's the same with people who change from trance to progressive. They do it because of the wider variety of artistic elements in progressive. I suspect they will soon move on to other genres like drum & bass and techno. They are still in the middle of their musical exploration. That's why they are enthusiastic about progressive because it offers such a wide variety of musical possibilities. But only a small percentage will stick to progressive forever (i.e. those who find it to appeal to both their feelings and intelligence, perhaps Sasha and Diggers are in this category). If progressive fans didn't know that trance exists, and suddenly trance emerged, many of them would probably move from progressive to trance because it would be a new interesting musical world. I think this phenomenon actually happened back in 1999 when many fans of other genres moved to trance. Now it's unlikely to happen again because trance has been criticized so heavily that social pressure forbids progressive fans to hear it. The current trance DJ scene is another reason. Superstar DJs are now supposed to play all new promos, instead of trying to combine melodic tracks into an artistic set, which tells a musical story. If there was more artistic trance DJing, I think some progressive fans would indeed move to trance. Proof: When trance was huge in 1999, trance DJ sets were seen differently. Oakenfold's classical mixes were seen as artistic wholes, and not just a string of random new tracks. OK, that's it. The point in my post was that there is a small group of trance and progressive fans who are going to stick to their genre forever. They listen to the genre because they get the best feelings from it. There are also other kind of people who explore many different genres, always on the lookout for new type of musical elements which appeal to their intelligence. Currently progressive is the logical stepping stone after trance in this musical exploration. But if trance wasn't in a state of turmoil, then some people would also move from progressive to trance because after all, trance offers some musical elements which are not present in progressive. I'll elaborate later on in another post about why Dutch trance producers and DJs are NOT musically inferior or commercial. For now it suffices to say that they are subject to the same kind of musical change and exploration as proponents of progressive. Dutch trance circles are NOT standing still. |
will there be an exam on this later this week?
Don't see posts like this very often.
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| Originally posted by Vesa Congratulations for a good analogy. It makes it easier to discuss this subject further. I think I have a possible explanation. But it's going to be very long. Much too long for most readers. Sorry. Some problems just do not permit a short and easy explanation. There are two aspects of the music hobby. First, everybody has a personal favourite soundscape that he likes to hear for enjoyment (i.e. people get good feelings from their favourite genre). Second, there's analysis of artistic values in music, which appeals to intelligence instead of feelings. This analytical aspect may be partly independent of personal preference (i.e. it's objective to some extent). Those who are studying aesthetics of arts can probably explain this in a more rigorous fashion (I don't have such education so I'm only talking about this based on common sense). People develop their own favourite soundscape during some part of their life. I don't know if it's partly innate, or is developed entirely during the childhood, or develops throughout a person's life. Let's take a couple of stereotypes as examples: the favourite soundscape of Africans is drums playing complex rhythms; the favourite soundscape of European bourgeois circles is Western melodic music. Of course, these are just stereotypes, and apply only to part of the population. But nevertheless people learn to appreciate those kind of musical elements which are prevalent in their culture. I don't know if the favourite soundscape changes during the different stages of the life span, or if it's quite constant. At least it's well-known that each generation has their own soundscape, so that would suggest that the favourite soundscape is learned very early in life, and will not change much after that. Thus I predict that electronica fans will be listening to similar music even when they are 70 years old. The soundscapes of melodic trance and progressive are very different. Trance fans like melodies, changes of intensity, layers of sounds and basic 4/4 beat. Progressive is a much more versatile genre. It's hard to say, but I think some of the most appealing elements are groovy rhythm, forward-moving basslines, idiosyncratic strange sounds, introduction of musical elements in complex mathematical ways, radical changes during the tune (i.e. changing the focus from one musical element to another). Because the soundscapes are so different it's likely that a progressive person will never change to trance. He gets good feelings from the progressive soundscape, and there are very few of those elements in melodic trance. On the other hand. there may be some similar elements in house and techno, so progressive people probably get good feelings from some house and techno tracks. As mentioned in previous posts, all evidence we have supports this prediction. So the question is why a trance person can change to progressive and never go back? The answer can be found in the other aspect of music hobby: progressive appeals to the intelligent mind. Here the satisfaction comes from analysing the artistic values in progressive. Note the difference between feeling and intelligence here. It's very familiar to me. Before I got to know the world of electronica, I played ordinary music with guitar. For 10 years my favourite soundscape was always the same: melodic improvisation based on European folk music. That was the only kind of music that ever appealed to my feelings. But much of the stuff I played was different, and was targeted to my intelligent mind: I explored everything from Argentinian tango to classical music, from heavy rock to flamenco, from blues to modern jazz. Quite typical for a guitarist. I simply wanted to discover all different types of musical elements. I think it's the same with people who change from trance to progressive. They do it because of the wider variety of artistic elements in progressive. I suspect they will soon move on to other genres like drum & bass and techno. They are still in the middle of their musical exploration. That's why they are enthusiastic about progressive because it offers such a wide variety of musical possibilities. But only a small percentage will stick to progressive forever (i.e. those who find it to appeal to both their feelings and intelligence, perhaps Sasha and Diggers are in this category). If progressive fans didn't know that trance exists, and suddenly trance emerged, many of them would probably move from progressive to trance because it would be a new interesting musical world. I think this phenomenon actually happened back in 1999 when many fans of other genres moved to trance. Now it's unlikely to happen again because trance has been criticized so heavily that social pressure forbids progressive fans to hear it. The current trance DJ scene is another reason. Superstar DJs are now supposed to play all new promos, instead of trying to combine melodic tracks into an artistic set, which tells a musical story. If there was more artistic trance DJing, I think some progressive fans would indeed move to trance. Proof: When trance was huge in 1999, trance DJ sets were seen differently. Oakenfold's classical mixes were seen as artistic wholes, and not just a string of random new tracks. OK, that's it. The point in my post was that there is a small group of trance and progressive fans who are going to stick to their genre forever. They listen to the genre because they get the best feelings from it. There are also other kind of people who explore many different genres, always on the lookout for new type of musical elements which appeal to their intelligence. Currently progressive is the logical stepping stone after trance in this musical exploration. But if trance wasn't in a state of turmoil, then some people would also move from progressive to trance because after all, trance offers some musical elements which are not present in progressive. I'll elaborate later on in another post about why Dutch trance producers and DJs are NOT musically inferior or commercial. For now it suffices to say that they are subject to the same kind of musical change and exploration as proponents of progressive. Dutch trance circles are NOT standing still. |
I've started listening to prog, but I still listen to trance. WHATS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT LISTENING TO BOTH? Anyway, does anybody have a good website for up-to-date news about prog artists and perhaps a forum? I'd be interested.
WOW... Vesa that was truly something, you just made my day... I agree 100% 
cheers,
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| Originally posted by EbolaCola I've started listening to prog, but I still listen to trance. WHATS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT LISTENING TO BOTH? Anyway, does anybody have a good website for up-to-date news about prog artists and perhaps a forum? I'd be interested. |
i was kiddin
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| Originally posted by AndReAz The adress you recomended : www.prog-addict.com doesn't work? |
I cant say i agree
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| Originally posted by blazed it wow bravo! excellent post, very well thought out and i agree with it completely. were you a psychology major by any chance? |
Very intelligent post, Vesa. Well said.
Thanks TranceSeeker, know of any prog forums by chance also?
Re: I cant say i agree
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| Originally posted by djRyan Jonathon Well now I can't really agree with u in terms of I will be lovin prog one day....(Ihope not) But good examples and what not. I don't get it y is prog. more complex...when it sounds like a failing car motor.....but if i do like it one day...i guess ill be feelin rather sheepish hahah |
Good job Vesa. I agree with you 100%
I grew up listening and playing classical music, just classical music. I hated pop, rock, rap, anything that other kids liked.
But one day I discovered electronica b/c my friends loved drum n bass. I thought it was so interesting, but still, it was too loud and violent for my classical ear. But that led me to trance when I first listened to Magik 1, and now it's the music that I will love forever b/c i consider it as being the true final evolution of western art melodic music.
While the classical world suffered in the Twentieth century with the deconstruction of melody and the use of atonal and serial music, a group of innovators in the 60s brought melody back but used in the context of repetition of layers and textures of melody, harmony and sound. These guys were MINIMALISTS, and if you listen to their stuff you will see the obvious resemblance with quality trance.
Progressive is also awesome, and the analogy can be made by comparing them to the avant-guarde movts. that deconstructed melody in the early XXth century and emphasized on more COMPLEX aspects of the music, such as defying all notions of rhythmic and melodic formulas and structures.
However, the best classical music for me that was composed in the XXth century was the one that brought balance to these two diverging artistic movements. Overlap, borrow and share the innovative ideas of contemporary music.
The best prog trance djs in my opinion are the ones that are able to create a prolonged set as a piece of art that combines the best of the electronic dance music out there. Tiesto and Sasha are the only two that do it for me, for all their differences sake. I have no shame in saying that they are imo the best weavers of melody and in the contrast of musical structures. Other people like Tranceseeker say that Oakey is one of the best epic constructionists out there and that's valid too.
I find it boring how some djs play only uplifting anthems right after another. I also find it boring when prog djs play the darkest tracks right after another, or just techno, or just hard trance. I need CONTRAST, that's what creates tension inside the listener and the crowd. I'd rather be taken in an up and down journey than be pumped UP UP UP all the time like what imo PvD does (and i love him too, i'm not flaming). That's what trance is supposed to be, a voyage, not a hi-nrg contest. If i just wanted to be pumped up by the dj i would listen to something even more complex than hard like good drum and bass.
But variety, diversity, and contrast. That's what sets an artist apart from other djs.
And the algebra-calculus analogy doesn't quite work for me. Is music supposed to be a science? Something that can be factually and objectively discussed. Not at all. Trance and prog is music, it's ART. Our appreciation is not supposed to be based on complexity, but on emotion.
You might argue that melodic trance is cheesy which might be true in many cases, but that's quite a simplification of personal judgements that are supposed to be based on feeling.
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| Originally posted by DJ P�O Good job Vesa. I agree with you 100% I grew up listening and playing classical music, just classical music. I hated pop, rock, rap, anything that other kids liked. But one day I discovered electronica b/c my friends loved drum n bass. I thought it was so interesting, but still, it was too loud and violent for my classical ear. But that led me to trance when I first listened to Magik 1, and now it's the music that I will love forever b/c i consider it as being the true final evolution of western art melodic music. While the classical world suffered in the Twentieth century with the deconstruction of melody and the use of atonal and serial music, a group of innovators in the 60s brought melody back but used in the context of repetition of layers and textures of melody, harmony and sound. These guys were MINIMALISTS, and if you listen to their stuff you will see the obvious resemblance with quality trance. Progressive is also awesome, and the analogy can be made by comparing them to the avant-guarde movts. that deconstructed melody in the early XXth century and emphasized on more COMPLEX aspects of the music, such as defying all notions of rhythmic and melodic formulas and structures. However, the best classical music for me that was composed in the XXth century was the one that brought balance to these two diverging artistic movements. Overlap, borrow and share the innovative ideas of contemporary music. The best prog trance djs in my opinion are the ones that are able to create a prolonged set as a piece of art that combines the best of the electronic dance music out there. Tiesto and Sasha are the only two that do it for me, for all their difference sake. I have no shame in saying that they are imo the best weavers of melodic and in the contrast of musical structures. Other people like Tranceseeker say that Oakey is one of the best epic constructionists out there and that's valid too. I find it boring how some djs play only uplifting anthems right after another. I also find it boring when prog djs play the darkest tracks right after another, or just techno, or just hard trance. I need CONTRAST, that's what creates tension inside the listener and the crowd. I'd rather be taken in an up and down journey than be pumped UP UP UP all the time like what imo PvD does (and i love him too, i'm not flaming). That's what trance is supposed to be, a voyage, not a hi-nrg contest. If i just wanted to be pumped up by the dj i would listen to something even more complex than hard like good drum and bass. But variety, diversity, and contrast. That's what sets an artist apart from other djs. |
Re: I cant say i agree
| quote: |
| Originally posted by djRyan Jonathon Well now I can't really agree with u in terms of I will be lovin prog one day....(Ihope not) But good examples and what not. I don't get it y is prog. more complex...when it sounds like a failing car motor.....but if i do like it one day...i guess ill be feelin rather sheepish hahah |
| quote: |
| I find it boring how some djs play only uplifting anthems right after another. I also find it boring when prog djs play the darkest tracks right after another, or just techno, or just hard trance. I need CONTRAST, that's what creates tension inside the listener and the crowd. I'd rather be taken in an up and down journey than be pumped UP UP UP all the time like what imo PvD does (and i love him too, i'm not flaming). That's what trance is supposed to be, a voyage, not a hi-nrg contest. If i just wanted to be pumped up by the dj i would listen to something even more complex than hard like good drum and bass. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by DJ P�O Good job Vesa. I agree with you 100% I grew up listening and playing classical music, just classical music. I hated pop, rock, rap, anything that other kids liked. But one day I discovered electronica b/c my friends loved drum n bass. I thought it was so interesting, but still, it was too loud and violent for my classical ear. But that led me to trance when I first listened to Magik 1, and now it's the music that I will love forever b/c i consider it as being the true final evolution of western art melodic music. While the classical world suffered in the Twentieth century with the deconstruction of melody and the use of atonal and serial music, a group of innovators in the 60s brought melody back but used in the context of repetition of layers and textures of melody, harmony and sound. These guys were MINIMALISTS, and if you listen to their stuff you will see the obvious resemblance with quality trance. Progressive is also awesome, and the analogy can be made by comparing them to the avant-guarde movts. that deconstructed melody in the early XXth century and emphasized on more COMPLEX aspects of the music, such as defying all notions of rhythmic and melodic formulas and structures. However, the best classical music for me that was composed in the XXth century was the one that brought balance to these two diverging artistic movements. Overlap, borrow and share the innovative ideas of contemporary music. The best prog trance djs in my opinion are the ones that are able to create a prolonged set as a piece of art that combines the best of the electronic dance music out there. Tiesto and Sasha are the only two that do it for me, for all their differences sake. I have no shame in saying that they are imo the best weavers of melody and in the contrast of musical structures. Other people like Tranceseeker say that Oakey is one of the best epic constructionists out there and that's valid too. I find it boring how some djs play only uplifting anthems right after another. I also find it boring when prog djs play the darkest tracks right after another, or just techno, or just hard trance. I need CONTRAST, that's what creates tension inside the listener and the crowd. I'd rather be taken in an up and down journey than be pumped UP UP UP all the time like what imo PvD does (and i love him too, i'm not flaming). That's what trance is supposed to be, a voyage, not a hi-nrg contest. If i just wanted to be pumped up by the dj i would listen to something even more complex than hard like good drum and bass. But variety, diversity, and contrast. That's what sets an artist apart from other djs. |
Re: Re: Why so many progressive posts????
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| Originally posted by tranceraver31 its simple dude. cuz the ferry corsten esque type trance is dead and progressive is the presence and the future |
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