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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J So the effect is not really the iboga experience helping to restructure your mind into a more harmonious form, but rather you were still under its chemical influence for an extended period of time.

I should also mention that Iboga may actually "reset" neurotransmitters to a pre-addictive state - whether it's drug addiction or addictive negative thought patterns that may cause depression and so on. So it may actually restructure the mind into a more harmonious form, but once the after-glow is gone, if the stressors and triggers still exist, one may relapse into former negative thought patterns, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney No, no, wait; Anakastic personality disorder are the types which are very strict when it comes to rules, times, deadlines and so forth. These have the chance of developing OCD, which is an "illness" (neurosis)(personality disorders are not considered such). Difference is that OCD inhibits the daily life of the person and he/she goes through a great deal of struggle. Antisocial personality disorder is the usual psychopath although the latter is accepted as being a more severe form of the antisocial personality disorder. Many still argue whether the term "psychopath" truly exists since DSM-V as far as I remember doesn�t support it.

I'm incredibly hungover and confused, now. Is there a link between the two? The post I quoted originally seemed to indicate there was?

Yes, from what I recall, the DSM-V doesn't use the term psychopath or sociopath, though there is plenty of published work on the two; psychopath usually being the term for those who were born with a lack of empathy, sociopath being the term for those whose life experiences went in a way that destroyed their sense of empathy. I read an interesting article recently that suggested sociopaths were more likely to suffer from anxiety disorders, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred I never suggested it was a miracle cure, although I certainly hoped it was. It's called the Iboga after-glow, where one feels particularly good for 1-2 months after the session, due to the Noribogaine. Once it leaves the system, however, things can start getting rough again. I wouldn't say I relapsed totally, but it's definitely not been easy. I did want to try micro-dosing now, but unfortunately it's tough getting it in the States and I'm also not sure if it's the best idea at this point.

I'm sorry, but just for accuracy, you really did suggest it was the second coming of christ in pill form. You posted for days, if not weeks on end about how this was the miracle fix where all others had failed.

I'm glad that you seem to be very grounded and analytical about it all now (I mean that), but at the time, it was virtually impossible to have a thread on here without you going on about the incredible merits of Iboga.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything like that - not my intention, but you should be aware that at the time your fascination with the miracle of Iboga and what it had apparently done for you (including all the videos you posted as proof of other people becoming "cured" after one session) was nothing short of obsessive.

Is there actually scientific grounds or trials concluding it actually does any of the things you claim or is it really just a slow release hallucinogen?

Crack makes people feel good as well.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN Is there actually scientific grounds or trials concluding it actually does any of the things you claim

No.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Is there actually scientific grounds or trials concluding it actually does any of the things you claim or is it really just a slow release hallucinogen?

There's a doctor's presentation on it that I posted before, but I don't think they know the exact mechanism by which it works. It does take away cravings, helping especially drug addicts, but as far as long-lasting effects on mental illnesses, I'm not sure. Supposedly they're supposed to start clinical trials in the Netherlands next year or so...we'll see.

Yeah, I'm not impressed; cravings for drug addicts can also be taken away by monetary reward. There's nothing magical about this plant.

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Originally posted by Lews cravings for drug addicts can also be taken away by monetary reward.

That's a ridiculous statement, and I'm guessing you haven't seen or spoken to many drug addicts.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred That's a ridiculous statement, and I'm guessing you haven't seen or spoken to many drug addicts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1308058/

'Subjects who earned more money during the cutdown test were more likely to abstain'

1986


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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1239924/

'The study suggests that an Internet-based voucher reinforcement program is a feasible method to promote abstinence from cigarette smoking.'

2005


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There are plenty more studies out there showing the same thing, if you care to examine the issue.

You know, I'll be nice and direct you to some more.

2013: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662495/

'Contingency management (CM) is among the most efficacious psychosocial treatments for substance use disorders [6;7;8] and holds potential to improve alcohol outcomes. CM utilizes tangible incentives to reinforce abstinence. For example, patients submit biologic samples two to three times per week and earn vouchers exchangeable for goods and services for tests that read negative. Voucher amounts typically escalate for each consecutive negative test to promote sustained abstinence, a reliable predictor of long-term outcomes, and vouchers reset when abstinence does not occur. CM is efficacious for increasing abstinence from cocaine, opiates, benzodiazepines, marijuana, and cigarette smoking [9;10].'

6. Dutra L, Stathopoulou G, Basden SL, Leyro TM, Powers MB, Otto W. A meta-analytic review of psychosocial interventions for substance use disorders. Am J Psychiatry. 2008;165:179�187.
7. Lussier JP, Heil SH, Mongeon JA, Badger GJ, Higgins ST. A meta-analysis of voucher-based reinforcement therapy for substance use disorders. Addiction. 2006;101(2):192�203.
8. Prendergast M, Podus D, Finney J, Greenwell L, Roll J. Contingency management for treatment of substance use disorders: a meta-analysis. Addiction. 2006;101(11):1546�4560.
9. Higgins ST, Alessi SM, Dantona RL. Voucher-based contingency management interventions: A substance abuse treatment innovation. Addict Behav. 2002;27(6):887�910.
10. Stitzer M, Petry N. Contingency management for treatment of substance abuse. Annu Rev Clin Psychol. 2006;2:411�434.

Two of your links have to do with cigarette smoking. What does that have to do with drugs? You're posting me some random study done, mostly on alcohol and tobacco, while I'm asking you how many drug addicts have you seen or spoken to that were able to quit simply on account of some monetary "reward."

quote:

Originally posted by Lews CM is efficacious for increasing abstinence from cocaine, opiates, benzodiazepines, marijuana, and cigarette smoking [9;10].' 9. Higgins ST, Alessi SM, Dantona RL. Voucher-based contingency management interventions: A substance abuse treatment innovation. Addict Behav. 2002;27(6):887�910. 10. Stitzer M, Petry N. Contingency management for treatment of substance abuse. Annu Rev Clin Psychol. 2006;2:411�434.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred There's a doctor's presentation on it that I posted before, but I don't think they know the exact mechanism by which it works. It does take away cravings, helping especially drug addicts, but as far as long-lasting effects on mental illnesses, I'm not sure. Supposedly they're supposed to start clinical trials in the Netherlands next year or so...we'll see.

Synthesis of iboga-like isoquinuclidines: Dual opioid receptors agonists having antinociceptive properties.Anti-addictive actions of an iboga alkaloid congener: a novel mechanism for a novel treatment
Original Research Article
Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, Volume 75, Issue 3, June 2003, Pages 607-618

Original Research Article
Bioorganic & Medicinal Chemistry, Volume 22, Issue 21, 1 November 2014, Pages 6062-6070
Tuhin Suvro Banerjee, Sibasish Paul, Surajit Sinha, Sumantra Das

Coronaridine, an iboga type alkaloid from Tabernaemontana divaricata, inhibits the Wnt signaling pathway by decreasing β-catenin mRNA expression

Bioorganic & Medicinal Chemistry Letters, In Press, Accepted Manuscript, Available online 21 July 2015

Synthesis of new series of iboga analogues
Tetrahedron Letters, Volume 52, Issue 46, 16 November 2011, Pages 6166-6169

and another 605 articles on Iboga's action. That's what you were talking about, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Lews

Whether or not a monetary reward may help some people to abstain, to say it actually takes away cravings is ridiculous. You do understand that, right? Try telling that to a drug addict. What I'd heard about Iboga, in terms of killing cravings, is that it also eliminates the heavy withdrawal symptoms that a heroin or benzo addict would have to go through. You can give all the money you want to a person, but the withdrawal from a heroin, opiate or klonopin addiction is not only incredibly difficult, but can also be deadly.

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney and another 605 articles on Iboga's action. That's what you were talking about, right?

I know they have various articles on it, but supposedly they don't know the exact mechanism of action. That's what I seem to have remembered, at least. If they do, and you can explain it in laymen's terms, that would be great.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred I know they have various articles on it, but supposedly they don't know the exact mechanism of action. That's what I seem to have remembered, at least. If they do, and you can explain it in laymen's terms, that would be great.

Don't know if you know how drugs work, so I'll explain it briefly: When cocaine is administered, it blocks the reuptake of dopamine in the pre-synpatic cleft (dopamine passes from the pre to the post-synapse through a small space). This basically boosts the effect of dopamine and hence the feeling one receives during the drug high. Most psychiatric medication functions the same way. SSRI or anti-depressants as they're known inhibit the reuptake of serotonin, i.e same mechanism as above, which is believed to be the cause of depression, OCD (which requires 2x dose of SSRI opposed depression) and so forth. Antipsychotic medication works by blocking the receptors of dopamine on the post-synpatic cleft, in the belief that schizophrenia is caused by an overwhelming amount of dopamine.

Ibogaine, contains a compound called MC-18 which blocks the dopamine overflow which is accelerated in drug-use such as cocaine and morphine within a part of the brain (nucleus accumbens). It works on a receptor (α3β4) which is believed to further boost the effects of drugs.

It also modulates the basal metabolism, hence the way the body consumes energy, as well as reducing oxidative stress. This is important when an addict goes through withdrawls.

EDIT: I got the whole 12-page study right here if you want it. Filled with name of receptors and other uninteresting stuff though.

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney Ibogaine, contains a compound called MC-18 which blocks the dopamine overflow which is accelerated in drug-use such as cocaine and morphine within a part of the brain (nucleus accumbens). It works on a receptor (α3β4) which is believed to further boost the effects of drugs. It also modulates the basal metabolism, hence the way the body consumes energy, as well as reducing oxidative stress. This is important when an addict goes through withdrawls.

Interesting. By blocking the dopamine overflow, does it work in a similar way to antipsychotics, then? Or does it simply block the overflow, rather than blocking the receptors, like antipsychotics do (afaik). What about the supposed anti-depressant properties of Noribogaine, which is supposedly left in the system for some months or so after an Iboga flood dose?

I have actually read some Schizophrenics micro-dosing it and saying it helps them. One, in particular, was reporting how he was able to stay off disability and work by micro dosing Iboga/Ibogaine. Perhaps that has to do with the dopamine blocking actions?

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred What about the supposed anti-depressant properties of Noribogaine, which is supposedly left in the system for some months or so after an Iboga flood dose?

According to a paper, it blocks reuptake on certain types of serotonin receptors (5-HT), reason why it works the same way as antidepressants do. However, apparently due to its low affinity to these receptors it requires micro-concentrations. The time it works, I recon, would depend on the half-life of the compound.

quote:

By blocking the dopamine overflow, does it work in a similar way to antipsychotics, then? Or does it simply block the overflow, rather than blocking the receptors, like antipsychotics do (afaik)

From what I've read, somewhat as an anti-psychotic. Cells have a plethora of receptors on their surface, each having a different function, so it's a bit more complex than the way I explained it. Serotonin, as an example, has many receptors which have different function, only one of them (iirc) having the effect we're talking about.

Imagine having dopamine flowing from A to B. Iboga, as I understood it, binds to B through competition and doesn't let dopamine bind to it, hence blocking the schizophrenic effect. These studies are really detailed and fall more in the spectrum of cellular biology than medicine, which isn't really my field, so I'd hate to say anything wrong.

I'd also like to point out that a paper I've read from '99 claims it was a dual-inhibitor (serotonin/dopamine), which means it has the exact opposite effect of what we're talking about. The paper about the receptors is fairly recent, so 15 years of research makes for new discoveries, which seems to be more in line with what you are saying people experienced

quote:

I have actually read some Schizophrenics micro-dosing it and saying it helps them. One, in particular, was reporting how he was able to stay off disability and work by micro dosing Iboga/Ibogaine. Perhaps that has to do with the dopamine blocking actions?

This is very bad on the long term. You see, the problem with psychopharmacology, globally,is that administration of antipsychotics leads to requiring larger and more potent doses, due to the fact that the body responds by making new receptors on which the dopamine effect is modulated - simply put: the medication stops working. That's why, statistically, people suffering from schizophrenia end up having more and more episodes which become more and more treatment resistant. By taking small doses, one enhances the above-stated effect.

So self-medication is not really a good idea and should be kept to a treatment schedule.

We didn't study Iboga during psychiatry rotation, so I'm just saying things I've read for the sake of sheding some light on the matter. And professional curiosity.

Interesting. Hopefully they'll begin clinical trials soon and perhaps find it to be of medicinal value.

i'm pretty sure they are doing this with other hallucinogens that show more promise. And they work by weakening the actual reward incentive of the habit rather than the initial craving or withdrawal.

that is the easy part. Staying sober and changing such a ingrained habit is the hard part and what makes the research kinda interesting.

I'm really unsure why you used it for anxiety which is probably your default setting and not something you learned. No drug is going to change that permanently. Can't believe you wasted a trip to spain to do that shit. I mean i get it that you were desperate but it sucks that you were kinda sold snake oil/

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Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I'm really unsure why you used it for anxiety which is probably your default setting and not something you learned.

It's certainly not my "default setting," and according to the psychiatrists I've seen, it wasn't simply anxiety. The anxiety is secondary, I was told. I've already mentioned my symptoms previously and how they came about in the first place.

And as far as hallucinogens and healing properties, this has been showing far more promise than others, according to the number of user reports. I don't know where you get your misinformed information from.

anxiety is always secondary. It is a symptom which is completely within the normal parameters for most people. You probably have an over active amygdala, its probably always been like that.


IF it wasn't anxiety, then what. Your psychiatrist can't actually make that diagnosis which makes me not want to discuss this with you other than tell you there is a reason anxious people shouldn't do hallucinogens.

if you are an anxious person , and you do a bunch of shrooms or lsd, you are gonna have a bad time.

CBT is the best way to go about for anxiety. Period. Benzo-medication should only be used for small amounts of time. For your sake, Alpha, my recommendation is that you stop taking drugs which mess with your neuro-chemicals. Psychiatry is basically the medical part which deals with imbalance of the above said, so even if a treatment would work - by default - your usage only tumbles down its effects.

My professional suggestion.

Thanks, Chimney. I've only taken Iboga once, and hopefully not planning to do it again. I now have to decide whether to pursue work and my Master's degree here in New York, or go back to Israel and be part of a community there, as I once was. The latter may be a healthier option for my mental and emotional stability.

quote:

Originally posted by Chimney CBT is the best way to go about for anxiety. Period.

CBT is the shit. It's how I quit smoking!

quote:

Originally posted by Silky Johnson CBT is the shit. It's how I quit smoking!

you know it

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